Next Gen BRZ thoughts
 

Lots has been discussed concerning the engine, and we each have our own desires there.
Little has been talked about concerning the shift to Toyota’s platform and away from Subaru’s.
Some questions I have are, is this a good thing? Does this now mean every bolt, headlight, taillight, steering wheel, headunit, brake caliper etc will be 100% sole Toyota’s design? Or will Subaru have heavy development in the body parts designs/implementations? There are things I love in the newest Subarus and things I don’t love in the newest Toyotas.
I’m really hoping Subaru still has a lot of heavy design involvement with the car, not JUST the engine.

The “rumor” that the next gen will use a Toyota platform is just that at this time, a rumor. The reasoning the initial author of that rumor used was that the new Subaru Global Platform architecture would not facilitate a RWD design. This is just not true, the new SGP still uses a driveshaft to drive the rear wheels so to convert it to a RWD only platform is relatively simple, more simple that converting Toyota’s TNGA platform. At this point we’ll just have to wait a little more than a year to see what they’ve done. Either way both platforms have more torsional stiffness and are lighter than the previous generations, so either would be an improvement.

As far as engine we should stick with what we already know, engineers have previously stated the car would not have a turbo and would use a Subaru drivetrain. So it could use a redesigned FA20 or FA24 as those are the two common Subaru engines being used at this time, it could be a redesigned FA16, or it could be something all new, again, we’ll have to wait and see.
The biggest “if’s” IMHO are:
If they can make it as light and balanced with better power and performance as the current gen.
If they can keep it priced reasonably
If they can they can do these two things and make it desirable to a wider audience.

We’ll see hopefully in the next 18 months or so…

i'm flipping tables if it doesn't have flip up headlights!

I’m walking away if there’s no turbo. Just as I’ve kept my distance thus far.
No turbo, no care.

just walk away now then. because it is not going to have a turbo.

Toyota:

“Fortunately, we already have a product for those looking for a Turbo 86. It’s called a ZUpRA.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dont let the door hit you on the way out

Bye bye then.

LOL!! Tough crowd. Very mature. Great community here.

Never took the walking shoes off.

We’ll see what they do. If they were smart, they’d put the FA24DIT in it.
It’s sales are dismal on the Subaru side and worsening by the month. Nobody wants them at altitude because the lack of torque is so bad it’s not even fun up here. There’s a point where the high-revving fun factor goes to crap when you lose so much power at altitude.
It’s a bummer - so much potential. I, and many, many others hope they do this right.

You are smarter than Toyota and Subaru? That is impressive.
The sales are not "dismal" the sales are exactly what they planned for. They were never looking for Corolla or Impreza sales numbers from this. They said so from the start. They plan what to build and sell all of them.
You and "many" other have different options if you want more power and they are not going to change the whole scope of the car to appease you.
Now go back to reading your clickbait websites where you seem to get all your info.

Another very mature post. Are you capable of having an adult conversation without insulting people? Judging from your post history, it doesn't look like it.


I've been following the BRZ before they were a thing. I know exactly what the intent for the car is. I know exactly what Subaru and Toyota's sales expectations are. This is all public information and has been since before they were even released.



Problem is, the world has changed and even SOA, the dealer networks and anybody connected with SOA say the BRZ needs massive help. They sit on lots and nobody wants them up here because of the reasons I've stated. Some dealers won't even carry them. Most carry them in extremely limited quantities. It is a platform with so much potential and it just needs more power. Tiny N/A 4-bangers don't work @ 6,800ft. At least a 25%+ power loss.



I love Subaru and I love small, manual RWD coupes with power. Hope they get this one right.

Not sure what my post history has to do with it but since most of yours consists of "needs more power" I guess we will be at odds.

"up there" is not everywhere. They sell just fine in the rest of the world.
There are already plenty of options to increase power. Complaining that they are no good there and the rest of us should agree is not accurate. You want more power then buy one and add more power. Or just buy a Supra and be done with it.
Would love to see some supporting evidence that "anybody connected with SOA" says it is in trouble and needs massive help.

What was the last mass produced car that had flip up headlights? :burnrubber:



Sales are right where Subaru and Toyota expected them, especially after a 7 year 1st gen production run.


Subaru BRZ U.S. Sales:
2019 = 2,334
2018 = 3,834
2017 = 4,131
2016 = 4,141
2015 = 5,296
2014 = 7,504
2013 = 8,587
2012 = 4,144


Scion 86 / FR-S U.S Sales:
2019 = 3,398
2018 = 4,133
2017 = 6,846
2016 = 7,457
2015 = 10,507
2014 = 14,062
2013 = 18,327
2012 = 11,417

Combined BRZ / FRS / 86 U.S. Sales:
2019 = 5,732
2018 = 7,967
2017 = 10,977
2016 = 11,598
2015 = 15,803
2014 = 21,566
2013 = 26,914
2012 = 15,561

Compared to U.S. Mazda Miata sales over the same period:
2019 = 7,753
2018 = 8,971
2017 = 11,294
2016 = 9,465 (4th Gen ND released)
2015 = 8,591
2014 = 4,745
2013 = 5,780
2012 = 6,305

I think the twins are doing just fine.

If that's the case, then you should know it is never going to have a turbo. Updated FA24 at best.

If you want a 4cyl Turbo the Zupra is getting one.

Don't understand why people always talk about garbage like a turbo version, or a hatchback, or power this, power that, blah blah blah power. If that's what you're into then why are you here in the first place? If you want a turbo, then go buy a car with a turbo. Why don't you people just complain about turbos on a miata forum and leave us alone?

I feel like I have to talk shit about my own car just so I don't feel as bad when someone makes fun of its power figures. Nobody should have to do that.

Admittedly, this is more a problem for high-altitude folks, less-so for the sea-level folks.
So, selfishly, yeah we'd all like more usable power up here. That's what you do up here when you want power - go FI. I'd prefer to have that from the factory. And while the M2Comp and Supra are great cars - driven both extensively, I'm trying to go a different direction this time with more of a more raw/mechanical experience vs a more luxury coupe.

Already have done the modded, tuned, catless, RWD 6MT BMW Twin Turbo Coupe thing. It was fun, I'd like something with a little less heft, bulk and mechanical complexity which I think is totally doable with a factory turbo'd BRZ.

How is everyone here so convinced ToyBuru wouldn't put a tubro in the next Gen?


They may fall victim to the pressures of the bean counters - strangers things happen all the time..


And the Zupra is NOTHING close to a turbo version of the BRZ - one's a Bimmer, one's a Subaru. Nothing is remotely comparable as far as build or purpose.


One's on the luxury side with gobs of factory power, the other on the opposite side.

The market it is intended for :bonk: Most people buying these are in the market for a sporty, affordable commuter.

Ask yourself this. Why isn't there many other lightweight small displacement turbo 4 RWD cars? What is there? The Fiat 124 and the Alfa 4C, not the same market.

Why?
Because they have very clearly and repeatedly said they won't.
Cost and performance would be equivalent to the Supra and they already have something in that segment.
They have to pass emissions and millage requirements internationally. I do not know how they wish to assign their fleet carbon credits but doubt they will use them up on a small production niche vehicle.
The first gen was designed and built to exactly what the public as a whole was asking for. If parts of the public don't like it then Toyota and Subaru just don't care. They have other cars for that group.

The build and purpose difference is EXACTLY why they will not bring the 86/BRZ up to the Supra standard and performance. Your statement pretty much sums up why they just won't do it.

If they fall to the "bean counters" it would be more probable that the car would just go away not be "upgraded". It will never turn a monitory profit and they know and accept that. It's purpose in the line up is not to make money but to attract people to the badge in hopes they will buy more of their bread and butter cars down the road.

If they did even half of the changes that some people want then the 86/BRZ will share only their name with the first gen. The resulting turbo, hatchback, sunroofed, two seater, luxtury interior, expensive, heavy, creature that would hit the market would then be panned by the same group that won't buy it now. It would follow the evolution of the Celica and end up being cut just the same way.

This is why what you after is just not likely to be in the cards no matter how many rumours the internet likes to start. .

This FA20 engine is capable of over 300 hp on just tuning the software via "openflash"or "ecu tek" without any force induction bolt-ons, I did some research with other forums discussed about this matter and just to make sure what I read was accurate I did some checks and checked out some numbers with an online fuel injector calculator, after using it myself I can provide some valid testimony to this subject matter myself.. The only the problem with a tune for this car minus any bolt- on force induction system is the torque rating.. Your not going to pick up extraordinary torque rates in the low rpm tech region say btwn 2,000-3,000rpm gauge until you get to about (X~>4,800)rpm or past it, the force induction has an advantage at high torque out-puts in the very low rpm region, that maybe the sole purpose of even using force induction. It's a waste of time of doing force induction just to say that your car can do 300+ hp because a stand alone tune will give the same power output in the higher rpm region of the techcometer..That's probably why Toyota reps took so long to even consider a turbo.. The power gains are solely in the users tunning capabilities for 300+ without using any force induction bolt-ons to the engine... Based on what I've noticed, force induction for a stock FA20 engine would only make sense if your trying to put on extra 200hp to the fly wheel or drag racing purposes.. Enjoy my friends����

Lol

Too busy gutting the interior of my forklift to get involved here.

Not at all. The turbo-charged WRX comes in @$28K and has a far more complex and costly AWD drivetrain as well. A FA20DIT or FA24DIT swap wouldn’t be anywhere near the Zupra’s B58 engine. Also, the emissions thing has already been figured out. Those FADIT engines exist today.

The only complaints I always hear are lack of torque.
They could easily make the power plant swap, and keep everything else nearly identical.
Why would they overbuild it into the heavy luxury category? I don’t know anybody that’s asking for that.
It’s net-new weight would obviously come from the supporting turbo hardware (FMIC etc) and beefed drivetrain/wider rear wheels. 200lbs? Maybe? I’d be perfectly fine with 3,000lbs.
I don’t see anybody begging for a sunroof - I certainly don’t want one and opt out every chance I get. My Limited Ascent doesn’t have one, thank goodness.
I don’t see anybody begging for a strict 2-seater either - I’d prefer the 2+2.
The car is perfect, other than the lack of torque.

I just don’t see a new naturally aspirated FA24 fully making the “more torque!” crowd fully satisfied. It would have to be an engineering marvel. Maybe that will be their direction. It would be a much better base to go aftermarket FI with I guess.

How are ya GrantedTaken?

I was about to post the same thing !!! LMAO

You hear that Jackson Racing? Your kits are now officially obsolete. You heard it here folks.










/s

LOL
https://youtu.be/I_fe-2voW0Q

Convinced is a strong word. Based on what they've said, and the fact it isn't entirely necessary I doubt they would.

Updated FA20 seems logical, Re-engineered FA24 seems logical, turbo'd FA16 seems odd, but possible, turbo'd FA20 or FA24 does not...all IMHO of course.

Ever heard of "economy of scale"? They sell vastly more variations of Imprezza's which effects the price/cost of all Imprezza models.

We talk about this all the time at work whenever sales get this idea to come out with a new model. They get a :slap: and are shown the numbers, and how many of this new model they would have to sell to cover just the development cost. Then they go back to hiding in their hole.

I'd like to see an actual WRX at an actual dealership with a 28K sticker. Just because the SOA website shows the WRX starting there, doesn't mean dealers actually order them spec'd that way. Current model year too, not old new stock carry over.

Heard from other bench racers that have never driven one either.

Have another look at the torque curve.
Huge initial low torque that's ideal for city work and 1-2 gear corners in the hills.
I've had mine up at that altitude as well many times.
All I'm hearing is the Mo Powa trombone tune in a different key.

Hertzawurlitzer or whoever the CO dealer is was selling every one that they could latch onto.
They were selling deep into surrounding states too because they could cut the price closer than Scion with the one price deal.
The 9 to 1 production Toy to Sub didn't help the situation that much.

This doesn't use any special ram air intake now does it?

I bought a 2019 because I thought they could be endangered and its long production run possibly be stopped.
This type of CHEAP, simple, NA, high rev, light, RWD car is getting to be unique with all the turbo, EV & hybrid SUV push of the market. Turbo & auto only were off my shopping list.
I for one like a responsive high rev motor.


I only notice some missing torque when im lazy and it's called character...
Need a bit of extra passing power: A well kept secret is to Downshift …

Every Car/SUV/Truck is not made to serve everybody and if so that would be boring!

Attachment 184299

Though in this case, 300 horsepower...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTJI9fNudnQ[/ame]

LOL Right. If there was a tuner making 300 crank HP NA, on E85 even. People would be fighting to get in line like it was the last Popeye's chicken sandwich.

300 hp N/A Subaru boxer 4s do exist... though I highly doubt they were achieved with basic bolt-ons.

What better way to have economies of scale than use an existing, proven power plant?
They’re already committing to a brand new, ground-up platform. They threw economies of scale out the window when they made that decision.

I live next the worlds biggest Subaru dealer. They have tons of WRX trims all the time. From bare-bones base models to loaded Limiteds.

No. This makes no sense. Modding / tuning N/A 4-bangers is an uphill battle. No way they’re getting that with just a tune.

Links?
It would be a shock to many if even one word of this was accurate.

Yeah I remember there was a shop trying to get their GC8 up there. We haven’t seen an FA do it yet though.

You claim you have a modded and tuned BMW, why not get a BRZ and then turbo or supercharge it like many others have before? O_o