Turbo or swap
 

Hi,its better to do turbocharge fa20 for about 350hp (on 93 octans-in my lifeplace I can't buy better fuel) or make the 2jz/LSx/other jdm engine swap?
Thanks for answers :)

Turbo 100%. I'm at about 330whp at 15psi, stock engine. 93 octane

How much torque did you get? And how about
gearbox/transmission?

It all depends on your goals. If you plan to heavily track the car then a swap might be better than the alternative. If you won't ever track the car and you will be fine with 350hp or less then just add the turbo. 350hp is doable with a turbo, but you will be pushing it on 93 octane.

The alternative: you could build the motor with lower compression to meet or exceed that figure for pump gas, but anything greater than 300tq and the transmission will go, so that is your next ceiling; you either need to build the tranny or do a swap to a CD009 or something.

This is why some prefer the swap because the cost to build the stock motor and swap the tranny and buy a turbo kit might approximate the cost of a budget swap, and the swap could have better reliability with more power and/or power potential. If you are heavily tracking the car, for many, this becomes a no brainer, as the reliability of even a built motor on track is dubious.

Alternatively, swaps are rarely worth the time, money, headaches, etc unless the car will be pushed on track and/or be seeing 450whp+ type of figures. I don't know what your limitations are with acquiring parts for a swap in Poland or if there are emission concerns or if there is a desire to have full CANBUS integration or just a running car.

I just want to add that I want to get about 350hp and how I know I US you use whp.
What will be The cost of making 350hp with brakes nad transmission upgrade?

The stock gearbox is rated at around 175tq, but it will usually hold more than that. 250tq is the limit for the track and pushing it for the street. 300tq is the max for the street. These numbers are ballparks and vary greatly with driving style and other factors.

Hp is measure from the factory. Whp is measured with a dyno, so it is more relevant to discuss whp, but estimating engine hp from whp works too.

If you are just wanting 350hp then a turbo kit with a clutch kit should be fine on the stock transmission unless you are beating on it often or tracking the car. The simplest transmission swap is to buy the Maxworks CD009 swap kit ($6k), and the cheaper route is to do a similar swap yourself with used parts.

If you want better brake performance and brake feel for the street or for autocross then upgrading pads, fluid, lines and a master cylinder brace is enough. If you are tracking the car often then you would want to consider a big brake kit to conserve your pads to save on money and to potentially avoid brake fade.

The stock internals will hold this Power? And What turbo should I use? Have I to put wider header gasket? Sorry for that questions but on Polish forums cant find any informations

Generally speaking, 350whp is considered the safe limit for the rods and 300whp being the safe limit on pump gas, but some people push things.

Many turbos will get you there. The difference will be in size and features like ball bearing versus journal bearing, or single scroll versus twin scroll.

Adding a thicker head gasket isn't an option on this motor without adding more money and problems to the equation. If you thicken the head gaskets then the turbo manifold and intake manifold may not line up to the holes on the heads, as they will be further apart. If you want to drop compression then you either need to do a built motor or you would have to play with the valve timing to alter the effective compression ratio, which isn't really done (as far as I am aware) outside of factory tunes.

Torque is what breaks things not so much hp. Although hp is equated from torque.
But 240wtq is pushing the limits of the stock rods especially for track use. Which 240wtq at 7000rpm is 320whp. The other thing that breaks things is a quick fast hit of torque at low rpm 240wtq at 3500rpm vs 5500rpm is a big difference better to gradually build up the torque then get hit by it all at once down low so choosing a setup that has lower low-mid numbers would help longevity. Some people have pushed a lot further but it becomes more and more risky. Also revving too high isn’t good either.

The stock trans is rated 180ft lbs. mostly because the clutch. After a while beating on it stock clutch wont hold up long. Once clutch upgraded the physical gears become questionable at about 240wtq.

Heat especially on a turbo is another issue. Oil cooler and hood vents at a minimum.

With this new power brakes need upgrading, suspension would be good as well. Wheels/tires for sure. Although same issue with a swap.

Another thing to factor is power to weight. 2750lbs at 350whp will have similar acceleration to 2550lbs at 320whp. Although better handling/braking being lighter. Weight reduction goes a long way on these cars and may help reduce your desired power needs.

Transmissions aren't rated based on the clutch. Our Aisin transmission has an Exedy OEM clutch. Two different companies with different ratings. Maybe you meant something else, but that is how it reads.

He lives in Poland where the latitude is similar to Canada. I think an oil cooler and hood vents might be overkill, especially since he hasn't specified track use. The WRX/Forester OEM oil cooler/regulator is probably enough, and if he is doing track days then he is probably fine with a thermostatic oil cooler, but could over do it with cooling easily. I doubt hood vents are necessary, but a turbo blanket, ceramic coating and/or header wrap would probably be better advice than hood vents.

Brakes don't really NEED upgrading, as I mentioned, unless tracking the car. OEM brakes are fine for the streets. Bigger brakes only manage heat during repeated cycling. For the streets, big brakes, and even better pads, do far less to stop the car than a set of good tires, which was better advice.

The trans is rated at 250nm / 184ft lbs from manufacturer (https://www.aisin-aw.co.jp/en/produc...lineup/mt.html) what that means precisely I'm not 100% sure, but many peoples reported excessive wear and slippage of the clutch at about 180wtq and the general consensus I’ve read across several threads on this forum and a few other forums is gears start to shear at 240wtq although individual experiences differ as well as driving habits and conditions. And 2-4 synchros are all over the place for what power they are going out. So personally id get a clutch if going over 180wtq, and don’t go over 240wtq after clutch upgrade if you want any hope for it to last. If you want more then do the trans swap.

And for some reason I thought i read he was planning to track the car but rereading i guess he didn’t mention it. So you are more or less correct about the other stuff if its not seeing a track and just a DD.

Yeah, I said earlier the stock transmission is rated to 175tq roughly, but yes, 184 is more exact. The Exedy Stage 1 clutch is rated to 203wtq wheels or 254tq flywheel. Exedy's Stage 2 clutch is rated at 228wtq and 300tq, respectively. I would guess that the OEM clutch might be somewhere around 200tq to the flywheel, but regardless, the OEM clutch can hold more than that without slipping, but its life would be seriously reduced. Just arguing the finer points.

I'm over 203wtq with a stage 1 Exedy clutch, and my clutch and transmission is still holding. I'm probably at the 240wtq mark based on the Delicious tune Harrop kit with E85 at 12psi and again, my clutch and transmission is holding. Of course, a turbo will hit that torque lower in the rpms than my car, so that is a factor he should consider. Good thing our transmissions are cheap to replace.

Some engines won't hold stock power. The tune, and how you use the power is critical to your longevity. I feel comfortable with my stock transmission and Stage 1 Exedy clutch becuase I know I have an excellent tune, and made sure to keep torque low beneath 3500RPM- I also know better than to induce high load at low RPM (I don't floor it in 6th gear on the interstate for example, I'd go down to 4th gear if I wanted to move)

I feel that if you just want some extra power and want to keep longevity, you should look into a centrifugal supercharger; they build boost with RPM and generally are less prone to issue. :burnrubber:

I want to use it as Daily. It wont be safer and cheaper to do A swap instead of this mods?

Once fully completed it may be more reliable / more power. But cost is about $15k minimum if you do everything 100% yourself. Most swaps never get finished, become long time projects, never run right or get everything working perfectly.

Pure automotive has some swap kits and is working on finishing up another one. I would look into those if you are going to swap. But expect it to be a long process costing at least $20k minimum since most people cant do it 100% themselves. And more if you are going to FI the swap. In the end once done it’ll probably be worth it if you can stomach the cost and work/time involved. And end up actually getting it all working properly.

A basic turbo setup good for up to 350whp can be done for about $6k if installed yourself and cheaper if you buy used. Not counting any supporting mods you may or may not want/need. Although most of those supporting mods would be similar to the supporting mods of the swap.

First place I'd start is, getting a ride in (or drive) an 86 with 350 whp (this sounds pretty close the limits of a rod failure). I heard a lot of this over in the ClubWRX forums, lots of claimed desires of X number of HP, and some who finally get there and realize "this is too much for me to handle" or "this isn't what I had in mind" or "I've invested way too much, I should've _____."


The electric turbo threads in here keep tickling my interest to learn more about them, not necessarily wanting one per say.

Agree with the above. I don't have anywhere near that power, I'm running an Edelbrock kit with headers, but I can't even imagine that power without a taller rear end at the very least. First gear in my car just lights up traction control as soon as I get on it and that is with 245 tires. I guess if you're more into highway pulls that would be a hoot but I can't imagine the engine living long.

Like it was said, it will be cheaper to do a swap if you plan to track the car and/or want 400whp/300wtq+ because then you need a built motor and a tranny swap and forced induction. For the street, at your goals, all you need is a turbo/SC kit and a clutch setup. If you want insurance then get a built motor, but it likely isn’t necessary.

Well, how much torque will stock rods hold?
In Poland turbo gt86 which I have seen have got 300hp with 310nm torque or less

It depends on where the torque is applied. At low rpms, there is less tolerance for torque because the piston speed is slower. There is a greater chance of knock/preignition/detonation too because there is less flow of clean air circulating in and exhaust gases circulating out. Oil pressures are also lower, so there is a greater risk of bearing contact.

As the piston speed increases, not only is it harder to make more torque because the flame front is chasing the piston, but the torque is applied when there is less inertia to overcome.

With that said, as it was suggested, a supercharger will build torque with RPMs, so there is less risk to the rods. Essentially, the turbo will make more torque down low, so if the peak tolerance is 250wtq down low, but the turbo stays flat, then the supercharger could hit 250wtq low and grow to 300wtq up high. Of course, a boost controller and tuner could be used to do progressive boosting. In short, the limit depends on the rpms, but in general, it is probably around 250-300wtq.

I don’t know if anyone has official rod torque numbers.
But 220wtq is pushing the top end of still being some what “safe/reliable” which is 293whp at 7k rpm.

People have bent rods at far less and not bent rods at far more. But 240wtq which is 320whp at 7k rpm is probably the highest I personally would consider going for a daily, beyond that and you are most likely seriously lower the reliability. Even 240wtq is started to get pretty “risky” but you got to weigh the pros/cons and risk/reward. Also how you drive is a huge variable.

TBH if you wanna swap the car, sell it and buy another car IMHO. It's just a complete pain in the arse and the balance of the car maybe affected which for me is the reason I bought the car.

Build it and do it right.

I am running updated rods with stock pistons (tods have been machined to fit stock pistons), after a couple of failed built motors I think this the way to go. Running stock compression, 380 bhp at the hubs and 300ft lb at the hubs. Running the HKS turbo kit. Stock trans has been ok so far but no track days yet, TBH I am expecting this to be the weak link along with hub shafts. I have looked at the Mazworks CD009 kit but as I understand it the trans tunnel will need massaging - can anyone confirm?

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Right on - if you want a project, something to do, a creation to be proud of, do a swap or some hairy turbo kit. If you want a reliable and cost effective high-powered track beast, just buy something like a C6 Z06 and call it a day.

This isn't exactly the platform for making anything beyond 300 hp, so I am curious - do you still intend to go through with looking for a GT86?

I have no qualms either way, but unless you have the knowledge, money and/or resources to make a 300+ hp GT86, why not look at other platforms?

If I change my target for 250-280hp it would be better? But can I use forged rods and make about 300 lbft torque with those power or its nnsens?

280whp /210wtq on stock 2017+ block and 93octane should be pretty reliable if installed/tuned correctly.

LS swaps have been corner balanced/weighed, and there was no penalty to weights distribution or balance. The K20/24 swap would probably be lighter or better with minimal elevation to COG. With that said, his goals are modest enough that a swap isn’t worth the cost. He probably doesn’t need a built motor, except for reliability/insurance.

The Mazworks CD009 swap requires no tunnel hammering. A 2jz/CD009 package would require hammering because the motor is moved closer to the firewall. This is not the case for the FA20.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=Cd009

What will be 0-100 kmh time with 280 hp?

Thats a pretty pointless measurement especially now days. And way too many variables to say. Between 4.0-6.0seconds depending on entire setup. Better measurement is 60-130mph or 40-100mph. So tire, traction, launching are not variables.

Never dynoed but probably at 275whp on a dynojet.
With all season tires, and taking off from idle (no launching, or brake stalling) with a auto trans I’ve done 4.9sec. If i had a manual trans, with slicks, on the strip and clutch dump launched and tires hooked up I’d bet a 3.9 wouldn’t be out of the question. But not close to being real world applicable.

Hmmmm, in Poland we have a people making auto gearbox controller. Im thinking about first put an 8hp gearbox in my gt86 and then turbo it (order to make turbo later is important! :)) But I dont know how will gear ratios change this car and characteristic of fa20 n/a.
GT86 MT ratios according to Toyota Poland :P
1. – 3,626;
2. – 2,188;
3. – 1,541;
4. – 1,213;
5. – 1;
6. – 0,767
And 8hp ratios
1. - 4.6957
2. - 3.1304
3. - 2.1039
4. - 1.6667
5. - 1.2845
6. - 1.0000
7. - 0.8392
8. - 0.6667

What is that 8 speed transmission you are talking about?

Probably ZF 8HP

8HP 51 is in the new supra.

based on those ratios
8HP 70

Can hold unlimited power.

It will only make it better. Closer more aggressive gearing even better than the MTs. Literally no downside, besides cost of getting this done. You could pair it with a 3.7 or 3.9 FD if you want higher MPH per gear while still keeping the closeness of the gears. 6 usable gears instead of 4. Would be perfect, and future proof yourself for big power later.

I have been posting about this and wanting to do this in another auto thread for a while.

Just not sure how to go about doing it though.

If you can actually get this done it will be a game changer. You can pave the path, and myself and many others will copy you if you complete it.

Not sure how the 8 speed will interact with the gauge cluster gear selector?

That is a very nice transmission. But it is a bit overkill for FA20, imho.

Depends how much it costs and ho hard core someone wants to get. 6 usable gears with close gear ratio. Plus 2 overdrive gears for fuel economy. Aside from cost no downside if you can get it to work.

A built FA20 making 300+ft lbs with one of those would pair nicely.