Oil coolers for DD/HDPE cars...
 

I recently picked up a 2017 BRZ as a daily/track day car to replace my 8th gen SI. My track use consists of 4-5 two hours track sessions a season. I have been reading up on this car quite a bit and it appears that an oil cooler is an ideal upgrade if the car sees track time. However, they are not without problems considering that I live in the North and our harsh winters can cause quite a bit of problems. Problems include oil never getting up to operational temp (-13F ambient is not uncommon), exposure to road salt rotting out the cooler and hardware, potential leaks etc. I also don’t want the oil cooler to create any warranty issues down the road as it still carries a 3 year powertrain warranty. On the contrary, I have also heard of members indicating as that as long as you use a quality synthetic and up the weight to 5W-30, an oil cooler is not an absolute requirement, especially with the relatively limited track use. I am sure there are members in the same situation as me and I wanted to gauge what others have done. In the past, I have never needed an oil cooler on the past cars but they were all Honda B and K series engines which are quite robust.

Thanks.

There are a few companies that make oil coolers with thermostatic sandwich plates to help with cold starts. There is also the OEM WRX/Forester oil cooler kit that might be of interest to you. There is definitely the risk of the warranty issues if the dealer is picky. The OEM version would be much easier to hide since its really just a sandwich plate and a couple small coolant hoses.

I'm using a mishimoto cooler with the thermostatic sandwich plate. It's not had any troubles to-date. We've seen <10*F a couple of times.

FYI, even with the thermostatic plates, oil will still bleed through and it will cool down. I live in Chicago, and during the winter months I just had to shove a piece of cardboard in between my bumper grille and the oil cooler itself and it helped to keep the temperature in check. When the warmer months came, I removed it.

You can block off the cooler core in the winter to keep air flow off of it, should help w/ reducing the effect of the cold weather on the core. The FXT style heat exchange may help in your case, but they often don't provide enough capacity for extended track use.

Did I read 2 hour session correctly? Like non stop?

Most of the better "plates" have a thermostat built in. In the winter duck tape over the oil radiator will help. Your engine is then running as the stock setup, as the extra cooler is only an add on.

The thermostat allows 10% flow until 30F degrees below full open at which point it slowly opens proportional to the temperature, so a 180F thermostat will have 10% flow below 150F, at 150F it starts to open so at 165F i believe it should have 55% flow. This 10% flow is to eliminate drastic temp differences in the oil cooler/lines vs the oil in the pan/block. Because of this i replaced my 180F mocal thermostat with a 192F thermostat, as well as running the forester heat exchanger. This helps get my temps to 170F in a reasonable amount of time in cold weather without having to block off the oil cooler.

Thank you for all the suggestions. I have thought about blocking off the oil cooler in the winter but that doesn't help with salt exposure (if it's even a problem), potential leakages and potential warranty issues.



Thanks. But I have read that this setup doesn't really help all that much once you get on the track and start driving the car harder.


My local track offers 2 hours lapping evenings with no run groups. During the 2 hours, you can run as much as you want. I usually attend 4-5 events per summer. However, I would normally only do 20 mins session before pitting and resting myself/car.

I will always plug my favorite oil cooler setup when I see these threads. Check out Maximal Performance's thermostatic kit. They use high quality off the self components and happily replace individual components ,say if your cooler core rusts out, instead of making you buy a full kit again. They will cut custom size lines for you, the customer service is great and the kit isn't as expensive as the rest. I have had one of their kits on my heavily tracked FRS for 10k+ track miles and it has never been an issue.

both B and K motors need oil coolers for long term health. You can run them without, but it comes at the price of significantly higher wear rates, particularly on cams and cylinder sidewalls/rings.

Check out the Jackson Racing oil cooler, which I consider the bare minimum for a tracked car. Quality components with individual replacements available.

GReddy makes a superior oil cooler, albeit at a higher price. Also quality components with individual replacements available.

Thicker oil is often a bandaid, not a solution.

+1 on Jackson Racing. Plus, it fits perfectly with the OE and TRD intakes.

You don't need an oil cooler.
Run 5w30 in the when doing track events. Switch back to 0w20 for winter months.

However in this case thicker oil than 0w20 is recommended by the manufacturer for this kind of usage...

Bah. We run 300+ degrees oil temp in the b series champ car race after race after race.

Not that I suggest it but I am far more OK running a b series VTEC motor that way than an FA20 ;)

+1 for you should do an oil cooler. I would not be rebuilding my motor if I had.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

And I can confirm that Dan's pushing that car hard.


I run 0W20 Motul 300V High RPM during track season. Temps get up to 270F sustained over a 20 minute session. Used oil analysis from Blackstone isn't showing any issues. I ask them directly with every oil change if I need an oil cooler and they don't think it's needed. 4 track days per change, and about 2500 street miles in between.

Again, thanks for all the input. It appears there are 2 camps of thought. For the ones that are recommending running a quality 5W-30 and forgo the cooler, will running a group 3 synthetic (Valvoline/Pennzoil Platinum etc) be enough? I understand that Motul 300V is well loved within the community but it's expensive and hard to get here.


Thanks.

Coming from the I blew my engine category, I ran the Motul 0w20 everyone recommend. I had 0 track experience. 3 days out over 2 months and I blew it up at Gingermen raceway. 76 degree day, topped out at 86 mph in the big 180 left hand sweeper on the back half of the track. Started making noise and then lit up like a Christmas tree and shut down.



Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

An oil cooler is relatively cheap insurance. Since you live in Canada where it is pretty cold the majority of the year a heavier weight oil may be doing more harm then good, at least for daily driving on cold starts.

You could get an oil cooler with a higher thermostat plate, mount the cooler behind the fog light, get an open fog light bezel for when needing the oil cooler, and then put a closed fog light bezel to block air flow / salt from getting to the cooler when you do not need it.

Can you share your thoughts on why you think it was oil temp that led to the engine failure? More details on your car/engine? Year, mileage, how it was driven and maintenance?


Thanks.

If I chose to not go with a cooler, I will probably run 0-20 in the winter and 5-30 for the summer months. Again, it's not about the cost of the cooler but rather introducing potential problems with a cooler (leakages, corrosion, oil not warming up and potential warranty issues). But I do like the idea of the foglight bezel, though my car does already have fogs installed. Will have to look into this one if I do end up with a cooler.

No heat exchanger (oil cooler) = no correlation between oil temps and ambient temps.

I looked at his thread and it doesn't look like he's torn it down yet to inspect but there's 2 things that allow me to speculate...

1: No prior experience - possible driver error but I think this is unlikely.

2: It's a 2013 and he mentions a "tick tick tick" on the cool down lap before it lets go. Possible that it was a valve spring failure.


I would be interested to see what the culprit was.

Oil cooler and 5W40 or 5W50. Pretty sure Toyota motorsports might know what they are doing.....just sayin.

Cool ambient temps in 60's, and I still see 220-230's oil temps with the above setup. At minimum, a 5W40 is what you want for track work. Even the best "race" oil breaks down at extreme heat.
Remember, oil is rated at 212 deg, so if you are seeing 250-270, then your 20-30 is breaking down faster and to who knows what. I'd rather run a heavier oil to much better protect bearings and components at high heat so as it breaks down, it's still lubricating. Also helps with oil pressure, a lot.

I'm seeing just over 80psi at high rpm, and then even as low as 20-30psi in high-g braking, or turns, and that's with an internally baffled oil pan. So what do you think is going on in a bone stock car on 0W20 or 30?
Just put 5W40 in it, and forget about it. That's perfectly good all year round.

Engine failure with no oil cooler does NOT necessarily imply engine failure because no oil cooler...

If sufficient oil wasn't being delivered to bearings, things were gonna go bad with or without an oil cooler...

I'm open to being edumacated further on this, but my position regarding HPDE-driven cars is:
1. 270-275F is not too hot for good synthetic oil. gcranston and others have had oil analysis done after running at these temps with no indications that the oil had been overheated to the point of degradation. For my usage of ~15-20 minute stints and changes after every couple of 2-day events or ~4 hours total, I don't believe the oil is breaking down between changes.
2. viscosity isn't an issue if you run thicker oil. 5w30 at 270-275F has about the same viscosity as 0w20 at 235-240F.
3. Pressure isn't an issue. We have test data showing the *same* pressure running 5w30 with vs. without an oil cooler. With the oil cooler the oil temp is ~250F and without it the temp is ~272F, but pressure drop in the cooler apparently exactly offsets any pressure that should've been gained due to running cooler/thicker oil. https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820

I might consider an oil cooler IF I were endurance racing, or IF oil temp continued to climb (always holds at just over 270F indicated, whatever the ambient temp), or IF coolant temps were a problem (always runs middle of the gauge even at 95F track days).

Anyway, that's my reasoning and I'm open to critique of it.

I find the 30 degree oil temp reduction easily worth the price for a Jackson cooler. You can use duct tape on the cooler if it's over cooling. You should check all of your oil lines for leaks regularly and this applies to OEM as well as aftermarket coolers. Salt and such is not going to do anything to this kit that isn't going on under your hood on everything else. They are put together from quality parts. I would guess you are highly, highly unlikely to run into a warranty problem unless you happen to pop a line and run it dry until it stops LOL Mine has been to the dealer for warranty work several times and all of its free oil changes, and in that time, no one has mentioned anything about the cooler.

Toyota Motorsport Germany disagrees. But hey, what do actual Toyota mechanical engineers who build and re-build countless of these race cars/motors know about the effects of oil temp, pressure, and low oil weight/viscosities. They started with 10W60 but then just recently moved to 5W50. They also know the inherent oil pressure issues with the block design, and how one port has to cover two journals, and there is no bearing priority oiling in this system. So the only reasonable way to help offset those glaring issues, is by controlling temps and viscosities/weights, which go hand in hand.

If you think for one second you are "harming" your engine more by running 5w40 or 5w50 for tracking days and leaving it in, instead of using 0W20 or 5W30, then I'm not sure you will ever understand. The wear that happens on a track in those "short" 20 minute sessions under high load are WAY more than thousands of commuter miles, or "hard" street miles.

I also trust data. Here is my actual real life on-track data. 66F day, at Gingerman. Full race car on hoosiers, turning 1:41 laps, which means the car is getting wailed on harder than any street car is. I chose to run 5W40 because of the cooler temps and we are sprint racing, in summer heat I will use 5W50. Jackson racing cooler, upgraded radiator, and side ducting to keep the air flowing through the radiator and not outside the frame rails. If you want perfect, this is about as perfect as it gets. 206-217 oil temps, 194-197 water temp, and oil pressure is decent, although I'm probably going to switch to 5W50 simply for the oil pressure increase, and keep the bearings better lubricated. Everything just gets hotter in 80-95F ambient temps......which means that 5W50 is honestly what you prob want to be running all summer long for track days and daily driving.

My specs are what knowledgeable engine builders here, and TMG recommend for ANY FRS/BRZ that is being run on track. That data supports it. See the big pressure drops, even with my oil pan baffle, and 5W40? That's clear as day. No way I want to be running at 240-250F, much less 270F with a 5W30. LOL.

So basically, I don't care who you are, you must be nuts to be tracking with anything less than 0W40 or 5W40, daily driver or not.

So that's my reasoning, which seems a little more sound than "my owners manual says 5W30", or "I read it in a forum".

Disagree with *what* of the above, exactly? For cars built and used exactly *how*?

For 95/5 street/track? Or for track only? What weight oil to use is another question in addition to whether or not to run an oil cooler btw...

An oil cooler isn't going to magically fix inadequate oil supply. This is not why they run one for their car, whatever it is.

What weight oil to run is a different question. For my usage, I'm not too worried about running 5w30... I wouldn't have any particular qualms about running 5w40 for my usage either but also don't see a need to.

Yet people have had oil analysis done without discovering inordinate amounts of wear metals in even thinner oils run at the track...

You're pulling a few/several tenths more g's in corners than a "street" car on street tires would, so there's that, but as far as the amount of time at full throttle at or near max rpm, it's not going to be hugely more than a street car on "street" RE71Rs or similar. But anyway yeah, different cars built for different overall usages may have different requirements.

Regarding your plots, I see four squiggly blue lines ,none of which looks like oil pressure or temperature and a scale for speed which goes up to 320mph. This screen shot is telling me barely more than jack...

Dunno why 212F oil temperature should be considered "perfect"...
Switching to thicker oil "simply for oil pressure increase"? Although "oil pressure is decent"?

Regarding "see the big pressure drops", no not really because the scale I see doesn't tell me what range of oil pressures I'm looking at.

But if the question is whether or not to run a cooler for HPDE/street usage (and it is), none of what you have provided answers that.

You run probably a lot more oil cooler than you need, and are getting oil temps way below what most racing teams would consider "perfect".

So congrats on that I guess?

Regarding what weight oil to run, that's another question... Related to temp of course, but 50wt for 212F? I don't get that...

I'm running 5w30, could be convinced to run 40wt or more but nothing you've said or shown seems to be any kind of evidence that I need to do so.

Damn people are getting touchy.

Like someone said I have not torn it down yet. We think it was rod based on that the one time I turned it over the crank pulley wobbled.

Car is a 2013 with 100k miles. Well cared for under my care. Bought with 45k on it. I was still on the stock clutch at 100k and it was fine.

I think it was oil temp based on talking with a few shops and the general consensus is I gone done f***Ed up.

Good luck!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

I'm almost afraid to chime in at this point, but I will say one thing: although I did not log pressures as carefully a some, multiple oil analyses before and after the cooler showed no oil degradation with 0w20. I am going to switch to 5w30 going forward anyway.

I didn't mean to offend and apologize if I came across that way. I am still a newb with this platform and just want opinions of those that has had more experience. Thank you to everyone that has shared your experiences on the subject matter.

We wanna know the root cause of your failure, that's all.

First thing I do when I see a post with this kind of trouble is look over at the poster's sig for model year, almost always a '13...

Somebody f'd up, but maybe not you...
I know the tendency is to think that when (almost) errybody says you *MUST* have an oil cooler, and then you have a failure without one. But again, if a bearing isn't getting sufficient oil supply, there's gonna be trouble with or without a cooler.

Another data snap at a recent cool, 60F ambient test day at NCM. Earlier that morning, we were running 203-212F oil in 37F ambient temp. So for 80-90F ambient temps, we expect peak oil temps at about 230-240F, which is very good. All oil thins and shears with high heat. Anything over 180F for oil is fine, running 195-215F on cool days are fantastic oil temps. Just because 300V says it's good to 300F, doesn't mean you run 270F all the time and think it's fine.....

As you can see from the dips in oil pressure, clearly the oiling system leaves a bit to be desired, and could be more stable. I could easily use 5W50 and run the similar temps, but with slightly better oil pressure, which is honestly a better idea. We think something along the lines of about 10psi pickup, and will test it at NCM in early March to confirm.

I'm using Millers oils, have used them in virtually all my race cars with outstanding results. Their nano-tech reduces friction and makes power. Another great alternative is Motul Sport Ester, it's virtually the same as 300V, but with an additive pack for street cars for extended drain, so best of both worlds. They offer 5W40 and 5W50 in 5L jugs for about $55. To me, this product makes 300V irrelevant.

Nobody that tracked an FRS ever said, my oil is too thick, I have too much oil pressure, or my temps are too low and blew an engine. I'm just providing real on-track data so that people can see and make decisions for themselves. I think this clearly illustrates that 5W40 at minimum, is a great oil weight for track coverage and all year round daily. Or perhaps use a 0W40, like Mobil 1, which is great euro formula, for daily drivers and track driving, and cheap! These cars get hot in daily driving, so it definitely will help there too.

It's a complex, connected issue. Oil coolers keep oil cooler, and thus, provide better oil pressure and lubrication for longer periods of time. If you choose to run without an oil cooler, then running a heavier oil, like 5W40 or 5W50 is even more imperative to help extend the life of your motor if you track.

From the Toyota Endurance team Re longevity on the track

Oil cooler
100 Octane
5-50
Conservative AFR
Oil temp sub 240

And they push it

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuBkRSSAy6Q[/ame]

Based on what I've seen in my data logs, this seems like an ideal setup for a pure track car.

Even with 93/100 octane mix and a conservative tune, I was still seeing moderate detonation in 80-100F ambient temps, especially once IATs crested 100 F. Slightly rich AFR will help a bit with this

Keeping oil temps as low as possible is important for pressure reasons. I would think sub-230 should really be the goal, with maybe mid/high 230's as maybe a single max data point in the hottest ambient temps.

A 5-50 weight oil would help with pressure and works if the car is only driven on track. For a car that sees street usage, will have to balance cold start wear vs. track pressures.

yes my conversation with them was based on a strictly track focused car.

Interesting, I was watching later in the evening and they were shifting at 6k, sometimes 5k rpm. Do you know if they went into fuel savings mode with that or if they were nursing a mechanical issue? All I can find on instagram is a wheel bearing went but they allude to other issues as well.

Rain/wet track. Also, in enduro racing, it's not about raw speed, but about how much distance you travel.

A 25 hour race is not about shifting at red line, you want to short shift and save the car. Pobst WAS running the main straight in 4th and that means right at redline but other than that yeah lower shift points

Randy Pobst handed the car over with a good lead with 2 hours to go and the the new driver had 2 offs and then passed on the outside of 1 like a dummy close to the finish and got pushed WAAAYY off and that was that. Should have won easily. The car had no issues

Thanks was curious what they were alluding to with the 'multiple setbacks' comment they made. They definitely lost a wheel bearing and had an overheating issue according to their social media though.
:cheers:


I just thought it was odd that you implied they ran the thing at 10/10ths for 25 hours when they didn't, I agree that's not the way to win an endurance race especially at an amateur level when a tire change and refueling is giving up over a lap to the competition but not everybody reading your post understands that.