Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59)
-   -   Car feels strange/less responsive after coilovers (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=137908)

csol 11-25-2019 02:30 AM
Car feels strange/less responsive after coilovers
 
Hi just trying get a bit of understanding whats going before taking it back to the shop to get thid checked out.

Recently got new wheels for my BRZ tS

Rays gramlights 57Transcend and new tyres MPilotSport 4s

Here are my specs

Old Tires: (Pilot Sport 4) 215/40 RS
Old Rim: (STI)18x7.5 +48
Bolt Pattern: 5x100mm

New Tire: (Pilot Sport 4) 255/35 18 94Y
New Rim: 18x9.5 +39
Bolt Pattern: 5x100mm


I got hardrace rear lower control arms and custom coilovers with camber plates.


The car feels very loose now it's hard to describe but it feels like a boat on water when you swerve left and right the responsiveness isn't there anymore like before its somewhat delayed. So you would turn left and the car would respond later than expected and the turn is very smoothed out like you are driving a boat in water.

Any idea what this could be because?

86MLR 11-25-2019 02:54 AM
Big wheels and tyres will dull the feel and slow response.

What are your alignment specs?

What coilovers and what spwcs?

Will BRZ 11-25-2019 02:57 AM
Did you get it aligned when you got those parts installed? What does "custom" coilovers even mean? Take it back and have them inspect everything. Though I doubt it's the problem, check the PSI on the tires as well.

Mr.ac 11-25-2019 05:04 AM
If you haven't aligned it, do so.
Also you went from lighter wheels and tires to wider heavy ass wheels and tires, so there's that to slow you down.

DarkPira7e 11-25-2019 06:17 AM
That feeling is why I switched from an 18x9 setup back down to 17x7.5. big wheel/tire make this car feel dull

churchx 11-25-2019 06:36 AM
Offset is not that much off, scrub radius/steering heaviness should be similar. 255/35/18. Diameter variance is not that different, so acceleration shouldn't be much worse. Wheel weight similar to stock. Tire width within normal range of wheel width. Wheel/tire switch shouldn't change alignment. Who knows the reason :iono: but i bought this car for handling, and experiences like these makes me happy to not have turned to dark side of stance/flushness :)

That aside, if you mentioned "I got hardrace rear lower control arms and custom coilovers with camber plates." - i slightly guess that you installed these alongside wheel/tire change (for clearance/not rubbing/flushness thingies?). If you mod something in suspension, or even simply unbolt/retighten it's parts - definitely redo alignment. Unlike basic wheel switch, suspension changes will make alignment out of whack, and it can change car handling to wrong one. In this case, i guess that there might be some front toe-in gained or alike. I'd also check if those "custom coilovers" are not dialed too soft.

gpvecchi 11-25-2019 06:41 AM
Why people use absurdly wide tires on a 200 hp car?

churchx 11-25-2019 06:49 AM
Because that nets placebo impression that it's supercar, one cannot afford?

DarkPira7e 11-25-2019 07:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpvecchi (Post 3278192)
Why people use absurdly wide tires on a 200 hp car?
Maybe people who come from owning heavy cars do it out of habit? I got mine because I thought I'd need the grip for being turbo, but I didn't need that much tire. I doubt everyone who has a large wheel/tire setup is 200hp, just the majority.

tobin 11-25-2019 07:49 AM
Start by reading How to screw up your cars handling and ride - step by step! by Racecomp Engineering

StraightOuttaCanadaEh 11-25-2019 08:35 AM
I have 18x9.5 wheels with sticky tires and my car doesn’t feel like that. That’s odd. What are the coilover specs? Spring stiffness, bump/rebound?

ZDan 11-25-2019 08:41 AM
Before/after alignment numbers?
Before you get an alignment, figure out exactly what you want. Generic alignment just gets you within a very wide range...

strat61caster 11-25-2019 09:29 AM
+1 on alignment and heavy/wider wheels and tires.

Also check damper settings and experiment there.

TommyW 11-25-2019 10:47 AM
Those tires will kill the sensitivity. More than 225 and you really start to feel it

toast 11-25-2019 11:21 AM
I second this. I'm running 245 and it doesn't feel light and quick like it did stock but I didn't want to run staggered and even with the 245's I can light up third gear (FI).

DarkPira7e 11-25-2019 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toast (Post 3278237)
I second this. I'm running 245 and it doesn't feel light and quick like it did stock but I didn't want to run staggered and even with the 245's I can light up third gear (FI).
Are you turbo or supercharged? What kind of tires? Even with 300WHP turbo I'm hooking 2nd and 3rd with Falken Azenis in 215s.

steverife 11-25-2019 12:33 PM
Like others said, the wider tire will make the car feel heavier and numb on the street.

However, when you push on the car a bit, it will pay dividends (if you've chosen your parts well).

...and all this is assuming everything is tight and aligned properly.

toast 11-25-2019 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkPira7e (Post 3278255)
Are you turbo or supercharged? What kind of tires? Even with 300WHP turbo I'm hooking 2nd and 3rd with Falken Azenis in 215s.
Supercharged. I have Hankook V12s and if it is below 50 degrees second gear just spins. They may be a little harder than the Falkens, but I can't imagine second gear grip with 215s.

i8ur911 11-25-2019 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toast (Post 3278280)
Supercharged. I have Hankook V12s and if it is below 50 degrees second gear just spins. They may be a little harder than the Falkens, but I can't imagine second gear grip with 215s.
I think "below 50 degrees" is the key part of that statement.

Also, if the wheel is turned at all, it'll be much easier to light up the tires as well versus trying to go straight.

DarkPira7e 11-25-2019 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by toast (Post 3278280)
Supercharged. I have Hankook V12s and if it is below 50 degrees second gear just spins. They may be a little harder than the Falkens, but I can't imagine second gear grip with 215s.
It's all in the compound and application. Once the Falkens get warm, they hold on like a bastard. You won't grip anything on cold pavement, so there's nothing you can do there. You'd also be surprised how big a difference tread block design and block size change grip behavior in tandem with the compound

steverife 11-25-2019 02:23 PM
It is weird seeing someone praise the Falkens, especially for how they put down power.

DarkPira7e 11-25-2019 02:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steverife (Post 3278296)
It is weird seeing someone praise the Falkens, especially for how they put down power.
They're not without their faults. The get greasy when heated for prolonged use like autocross or hillclimb

NoHaveMSG 11-25-2019 02:49 PM
What spring rate?

csol 11-25-2019 05:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpvecchi (Post 3278192)
Why people use absurdly wide tires on a 200 hp car?
I'd appreciate if you didnt jump to conclusions on another topic we aren't talking about. Its boosted fyi

Running FI turbo 200kw+ i think it might have something to do with the suspension being soft as I made it stiffer by turning the knob at the top of the structs on the front and back clockwise to the stiffest setting and now it's a tiny bit better

Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3278191)
Offset is not that much off, scrub radius/steering heaviness should be similar. 255/35/18. Diameter variance is not that different, so acceleration shouldn't be much worse. Wheel weight similar to stock. Tire width within normal range of wheel width. Wheel/tire switch shouldn't change alignment. Who knows the reason :iono: but i bought this car for handling, and experiences like these makes me happy to not have turned to dark side of stance/flushness :)

That aside, if you mentioned "I got hardrace rear lower control arms and custom coilovers with camber plates." - i slightly guess that you installed these alongside wheel/tire change (for clearance/not rubbing/flushness thingies?). If you mod something in suspension, or even simply unbolt/retighten it's parts - definitely redo alignment. Unlike basic wheel switch, suspension changes will make alignment out of whack, and it can change car handling to wrong one. In this case, i guess that there might be some front toe-in gained or alike. I'd also check if those "custom coilovers" are not dialed too soft.
Yeah the shop aligned the wheels they told me and did a re-torque on all the suspension I asked them what my spring rate is they put on but it feels a lot better after setting the softness to stiff.

https://i.imgur.com/AdcdsNG.jpg

churchx 11-25-2019 11:17 PM
csol: in future i advise to whenever you do alignment, to ask for printout of it. Only knowing camber/toe numbers others may suggest with more certainty, if certain handling issue is from that or not. Also knowing what alignment before, simplifies doing planned changes to handling from different alignment. Printout also adds some extra QA to suspension shop work :).

why? 11-26-2019 09:12 AM
18's are boat anchors. That is what happens.

Grip is compound dependant, not size dependant. Unless you are racing, it's silly to use such large tires and wheels.

Racecomp Engineering 11-26-2019 10:50 AM
18s aren't always boat anchors. Some are reasonably light and it's not too hard to find an 18x8 lighter than stock. But I do think too many people go to 18x9.5s on this car (may not be the issue here).

Either way for this case, you've got to get your alignment numbers and should know your spring rates as well. Hard to help without that.

- Andrew

strat61caster 11-26-2019 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering (Post 3278577)
But I do think too many people go to 18x9.5s on this car (may not be the issue here).
OP did put 18x9.5's on

steverife 11-26-2019 01:22 PM
If you still have the previous wheels and tires, it would be really easy to see if the extra wheel/tire width (and possibly weight) has the impact that you are experiencing.

Also, easy and worth checking tire pressure.

Racecomp Engineering 11-26-2019 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 3278613)
OP did put 18x9.5's on
True. Mystery alignment and spring rates are just my first concerns.

- Andrew

StraightOuttaCanadaEh 11-26-2019 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering (Post 3278630)
True. Mystery alignment and spring rates are just my first concerns.

- Andrew
I would also suggest this based on my personal experience of getting sticky tires with 18x9.5 wheels and having this floaty sensation in the corners with what felt like lateral movement, which I think I even made a thread about somewhere. Ended up being coilovers. After I firmed up the settings, the handling "symptoms" went away, although still present at high cornering speeds, which leads me to believe that it's damping, which is also supported by the fact that I have entry level coilovers. I think once I switch to a quality suspension like KW or Ohlins, it should go away. Then again, I have to go pretty damn fast in a corner to trigger that suspension reaction.

Shizuka 11-26-2019 04:43 PM
I know many on this forum like to harp on the wide wheels thing -- but in my firsthand experience on Rays 18x9.5 +38s wrapped in 255s with HKS coilovers and SPL RLCAs, the car still handles like it should and is still easily light on its feet. Definitely is a little less darty/nimble on initial turn-in compared to stock, but is by no means "sluggish". I'm also between -2.5/-3 deg camber all around so the car is still eager to turn. If I were doing trackdays every week I would swap to 17x9s Volks & RE-71rs to try and get every second back I could, but on the street there's not that much difference in feel in my opinion. Can't beat the concave look on the 18x9.5s either ;)

With this kind of setup though, alignment is key. Out of the box the HKS coils felt very mediocre, sloppy even, but after a proper alignment and ride height adjustment it was like night & day. My bet for OP is either the suspension components were not installed properly, or whoever did the alignment did a poor job. Definitely would get a second opinion on the alignment & suspension setup from a good racing/performance shop before blaming the wheel/tire combo.

Hell, I had 18x9.5s on purely stock suspension for a couple days before my coilovers came in and it didn't feel that bad (looked hilarious though)...

soundman98 11-26-2019 08:18 PM
who's making custom coilovers anymore?

strat61caster 11-26-2019 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3278765)
who's making custom coilovers anymore?
Depends on your definition of custom, if it's pretty loose than pretty much everyone not an old German company will customize for you (Bilstein/Koni/KW+Ohlins, although all except KW are easily revalvable either first or second party)
Most are certainly just spring swaps on cartridges picked from a catalog.

86MLR 11-26-2019 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3278765)
who's making custom coilovers anymore?
https://mcasuspension.com/products

From Street ultimates down, or up.

Although all are available with different spring rates, it's the valving and dyno work that makes the big difference.

why? 11-27-2019 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering (Post 3278577)
18s aren't always boat anchors. Some are reasonably light and it's not too hard to find an 18x8 lighter than stock. But I do think too many people go to 18x9.5s on this car (may not be the issue here).

Either way for this case, you've got to get your alignment numbers and should know your spring rates as well. Hard to help without that.

- Andrew
While I agree in theory to everything you said, by making them 18's you just handicap everything. Sure you can try and make them lighter, they are still so massive they are going to be heavy.

Of course for the street I see no reason to run anything other than 16's, but that limit's tire selection drastically because 17's have become standard for so long. I really wish hub swapping was a thing so I could switch to 4x100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 86MLR (Post 3278781)
https://mcasuspension.com/products

From Street ultimates down, or up.

Although all are available with different spring rates, it's the valving and dyno work that makes the big difference.
Yes, for lots of cash many companies will make anything you want. Sort of odd to not know that. What were the MCA's on dirtfish rally? $5k or so? Hey that's cheaper than Penske's.

soundman98 11-27-2019 09:58 PM
i didn't think custom solutions could be had for under $10k. nice to know now.

csol 11-28-2019 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3278765)
who's making custom coilovers anymore?
Tunehouse racing
https://tunehouse.com.au/thr-insight...-86-subaru-brz

I'll get my specs soon

Racecomp Engineering 11-28-2019 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3279060)
While I agree in theory to everything you said, by making them 18's you just handicap everything. Sure you can try and make them lighter, they are still so massive they are going to be heavy.

Of course for the street I see no reason to run anything other than 16's, but that limit's tire selection drastically because 17's have become standard for so long. I really wish hub swapping was a thing so I could switch to 4x100.
True that an equivalent 17 will be lighter than an 18. Also true that after all the preaching I do about big heavy wheels (which is a lot), we ran an 18x8 on our first BRZ shop car and it was almost entirely for looks :lol:. But they were relatively light BBS wheels that looked really good.

I also ran 16x7 Enkei RPF1s on our 2nd BRZ which were awesome (also I'm now selling them if anyone is interested).

Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3279060)
Yes, for lots of cash many companies will make anything you want. Sort of odd to not know that. What were the MCA's on dirtfish rally? $5k or so? Hey that's cheaper than Penske's.
Dirtfish uses Reiger and I think a custom Bilstein for the rear. Nameless used MCA on their rallycar. It looks like MCA is pretty popular with the rally peoples over here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3279062)
i didn't think custom solutions could be had for under $10k. nice to know now.
Lots of possibilities for custom and/or built to order for this car, at a wide variety of price points. Custom can mean different things to different people, but we can have your Ohlins, Bilstein, JRZ, etc. built to order and custom valved if you like.

Fully custom isn't always better...it depends on the quality of components used to build the shock and the expertise of the person designing and building everything. You can reshim a crap coilover for a custom valving profile, but if you're still using crap shock fluid and a crap piston and crap adjuster/shaft, it's only gonna be (maybe) slightly better crap. But a good custom shock can give you what you need especially at the higher end of the scale IF you know what you're asking or are working with someone who does.

Happy Thanksgiving y'all.

- Andrew

Milhouse86 11-28-2019 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racecomp Engineering (Post 3279120)
True that an equivalent 17 will be lighter than an 18. Also true that after all the preaching I do about big heavy wheels (which is a lot), we ran an 18x8 on our first BRZ shop car and it was almost entirely for looks [emoji38]. But they were relatively light BBS wheels that looked really good.



I also ran 16x7 Enkei RPF1s on our 2nd BRZ which were awesome (also I'm now selling them if anyone is interested).







Dirtfish uses Reiger and I think a custom Bilstein for the rear. Nameless used MCA on their rallycar. It looks like MCA is pretty popular with the rally peoples over here.







Lots of possibilities for custom and/or built to order for this car, at a wide variety of price points. Custom can mean different things to different people, but we can have your Ohlins, Bilstein, JRZ, etc. built to order and custom valved if you like.



Fully custom isn't always better...it depends on the quality of components used to build the shock and the expertise of the person designing and building everything. You can reshim a crap coilover for a custom valving profile, but if you're still using crap shock fluid and a crap piston and crap adjuster/shaft, it's only gonna be (maybe) slightly better crap. But a good custom shock can give you what you need especially at the higher end of the scale IF you know what you're asking or are working with someone who does.



Happy Thanksgiving y'all.



- Andrew
How much HP was your shop car putting out? Is there certain power levels? Areo levels? Or what to justify wider wheels?

Better question may be...What am I really looking for the car to feel like, to know whether a wider would be beneficial or detrimental?

Sorry new to track days. I have some Tarmec 2's sitting on my shelf waiting to go in this winter. I plan to keep running stock wheels with Hankook RS4 225 for now but after FI I was thinking 17x9. I liked what I have read on the Maxxis VR1 and was thinking probably in a 255 after the SC. (Built engine with 10.1 this winter) I'm going to lose a few horse by staying naturally aspirated this summer but I need to work on my line more than anything anyway.

Sorry to hijack but I though the similar question could help OP.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:45 AM.
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Show 40 post(s) from this thread on one page

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.