General question: how do you justify installing parts that may not be reversible?
 

Hi all!

I bought my 2018 BRZ w/ PP with the intention of letting it be my daily driver/track car. I have done 5 events so far. Mods so far are GT Radial Champiro SX2s, Enkeki VR5 wheels, ATE Typ200 brake fluids, PFC 01/11 pads (new XP10s sitting on the shelf too), SPC camber bolts in the front.

Thinking about ARP extended studs so I can feel good about changing wheels all the time + be able to play with spacers. Also thinking about getting an oil cooler since I am super paranoid and always change oil after a track day or two (running 5w30 in 60 ~ 80F weather).

The studs and oil cooler aren't super crazy, but also not trivial to hide/undo if I ever decide to sell the car.

How do you approach this problem of balancing modding the car to be a reliable track car v.s. not having it be so crazy that you would lose all the money sunk into it?

Modding cars is not an investment, you will lose money in the long run.


It's a labor of love and passion, enjoy the ride.

My solution to this is easy, but doesn't work for everyone. I keep the car long enough that it doesn't matter what I've done to it, there is no real value left in it other than whatever the scrapyard would give me.

For those that want to eventually sell the car and recoup some money, you have to decide how much the "average" buyer would devalue the car because of the mod, and if you are willing to live with that loss. Mods of any type add almost zero value to a used car for the normal car buyer. They look up the KBB value for the car, private sale, and expect to get 10% off from there.

@Dadhawk

I am perfectly fine with the mods not adding any value onto the car. I am more troubled by the notion of the mods taking value out of the car.

If you don't find value in modifying the car then why modify it?

Don't get hung up on how others value your possessions and decisions, these are toys not investments, live your life.

Both of those things are reversible btw.

It's my car therefore I do what I want. The mods are for my pleasure and when it comes to selling, I'm sure a like minded person will come along to buy a nicely modded car..

Wheel studs are a wear item if you're doing enough events, and I cannot imagine that they'd lower the value of your car. Even if they did, don't sweat it. Every minute and mile you have your car it's losing value, that's just the nature of a depreciating asset. Enjoy it.

Depends on your plans with the car.

For me I plan on having mine as long as I possibly can since it's my first. I won't necessarily have it forever, but I'm not owning it with clear intent to sell after X years either.

Only thing I'm worried about is having to uninstall/reinstall everything for smog tests but that's still 5 or so years down the road anyway.

I went with the non-extended, standard length ARP studs and use closed-end lug nuts. Depending on how much spacer you want to try, you might be fine with the non-extended... As stated in the other thread, IMO 6 full turns bare minimum is fine with known good studs (ARP, MSI and the like).

IMO oil cooler is not needed for "casual" track usage. My oil temps get up to 272F indicated at the track, but I'm only out for ~15 minutes at a time and I change it frequently (~every 4 track days). I also run 5w30, full synth of course.

IMO, for many of us doing HPDEs the risks associated with running an oil cooler may outweigh the risks of NOT running one...

Re: the OC, that's an interesting perspective to hear. Those are also the temperatures I am seeing. My sessions tend to be 20 minutes and I have gotten to a point where I don't hesitate to shift at red line even at 270F.

An oil cooler is easily reversible in a handful of hours.

Chopping up your hood for some vents or doing a K swap is a very different conversation :D

For cars that are still under the powertrain warranty (60 months / 60k miles), I wonder if having an oil cooler could potentially make it harder to claim it (dealers could argue that the oil cooler created a leak, lowered the pressure, etc).

Tires, brake pads, brake fluid, are all important mods for a track rat, but to an average buyer it's just a wear and tear maintenance item. Shouldn't really have any impact. Basic bolt on exhaust and suspension parts also aren't too hard to reverse back to stock. The only thing that would really sink your costs is forced induction or engine swap. Those are not so easy to revert to stock. For me personally with my budget, that's where I draw the line

For some buyers, they probably will. You have to be willing to take the time to finding "that buyer" that it doesn't impact.

I don’t worry about it. I may not have it forever but will have it at least another 4 years and by then it won’t have much value anyways.

Pretty sure a hood swap is less than an hour, cut up an eBay/second hand hood and keep your oe one for the swap back to avoid having to respray.

1. you'll lose money

2. basically everything is reversible beyond widebody (get spare hood and trunk for vents or wings)

I tend to either put it into the wall, or die before I sell it so :D

It's a toy, I treat it as such.

"how do you justify getting married?"

"how do you justify getting a tattoo?"

"how do you justify having children in this messed up world?"

"how do you justify investing into a business that has little chance?"

"how do you justify..."

there's a million of these. we all justify those things on our own screwed up reasoning. it's why there's so many options for everything in the first place.

So much this! Way too many stories of leaking lines and fittings.


Also, since you have a 2018, installing an oil cooler will kiss your engine warranty goodbye.

Back to the topic:

Cars and track days are a hobby. They are investments in your happiness, not your retirement account.
And dont forget that ALL cars are depreciating assets that eventually go to 0.

Even then new hood. Bam reversed.

My roomate asked me this he got a 2018 fiat 124 and I cut holes in my hood for the vents and he's like aren't you worried about resale.

No son. I do this cause I love it. If I was concerned about resale I'd throw a sway bar in the back and not touch anything else. And that's just not fun

I don't feel that's true at all. Even a non-running hunk that used to resemble a car is worth at least $150 at most scrap yards, with junk car places offering even more in some areas.

The most common track mods are reversible. So far I've done wheels, tires, tune, full exhaust (now reverted back to CBE), BBK, oil cooler, diff mount inserts, and coilovers. Probably forgetting a few but nothing crazy and all of those can be reversed. Looking at hood vents next and that can be swapped back.

I'm not sure what track mods would be irreversible. I guess some major body/aero work, welded in roll cage, and/or engine swap. I never intended to go that extreme with this car, but the longer I keep tracking with it, the less it's worth and less crazy those ideas seem. Who knows, maybe someday...

I said K swap. As in engine swap!

I wasn't going to argue that was easily reversible, only cutting up the hood, too lazy to crop your quote on mobile.

Ahh ok. Sorry. I misunderstood as well. Hadn't had coffee yet :D

I should look for a hood in CWP to cut up..hmm..

How do I justify it?

"Honey, I REALLY REALLY NEED THIS RIGHT NOW!"

"I got it for cheap used. I swear!"

"I don't know what you're talking about. The huge wing was always there."

or my favorite

"wing, what wi...HOLY COW SOMEONE RUINED MY CAR WITH A UGLY WING!!! now i need to spend thousands to change it back!"

So far I don't have problems reversing with every single mod installed... At least, no more than I did stock. Still kill it going over the edge into the garage sometimes. Have to back into a spot with only a couple inches width to spare.

Its a car. Its a hobby. It is how I choose to spend some of my discretionary income.

This is terrible advice. The issue with oil temperatures is not breaking down the oil... most full synthetics have breakdown temps in excess of 300F. It's the loss of oil pressure in an engine which already has oiling design flaws. If you are tracking the car, you need an engine oil cooler for reliability, period, full stop. If you don't yet have an oil pressure gauge, get one and install it, you can run it off the oil cooler sandwich plate. The oil temperature ONLY matters because of its relation to pressure... oil pressure is what's critical unless you want your rods to come a knocking.

1) Subaru doesn't eliminate powertrain warranties for oil coolers. Track use on the other hand will violate your warranty.

2) If your oil cooler lines or fittings are leaking, you bought a shitty oil cooler. Buy better quality parts. Don't cheap out on essential systems.

Warranties cannot be invalidated

1. They most certainly can, and most likely will refuse any engine warranty claims after modifications to the oiling system. Track use will NOT void your warranty, so you need to come with evidence before making uninformed claims like that.

2. Thats a cute fantasy. Anything can fail.

That's not how it works.

A single claim can be denied based on prior modifications. They cannot blanket "cancel" a warranty. It's on a case by case basis.

Just for interest, here's how the process works in full:

1. Person A brings car in for warranty work.
2. Dealership opens a warranty claim.
3. Dealership decides whether to honor the warranty work.
4. If a aftermarket modification is thought to have caused the warranty work, the OEM can deny the dealership reimbursement for the warranty work. I.E. the dealership loses money.
5. If the warranty claim is accepted by the dealership, they begin work on it.
6. Dealership bills the OEM for time (with a service fee modifier of around 10%), and parts.

Again, we need to understand each dealership is individually owned and privately operated. It is not operated by Subaru/Toyota. So each dealership can choose whether to take the risk on modified cars and warranty, because there's a potential for the dealership to lose a lot of time and money. That's why each dealership is different when it comes to claims for modified cars. Also it's important to note that dealerships want to do warranty work, as it makes up a sustainable portion of their revenue.

Do you people even read?

I said nothing of "cancelling" a warranty. I said an engine warranty claim would almost certainly denied if you have an aftermarket oil cooler. Which it will be.

Im aware of the dealer to manufacturer approval workflow and for the purposes of this discussion its irrelevant. Denial is denial.

Ive never heard of a dealer doing non-routine warranty work without manufacturer approval and if they do, they are idiots. In fact in many cases something like an engine replacement is probably going to get a factory rep assigned to collect more info before approval



If you think you can install an oil cooler (which alters the oiling system and lowers oil pressure) then blow your engine and get it covered under warranty, you're living in the same fantasy world where oil coolers never fail.

Loss of oil viscosity with temperature can somewhat be addressed by going to a 30, 40, or 50 weight oil. Personally, I run 5w30 for street track in the BRZ. But...

I don't think an oil cooler is a bad idea, but it might not be the magic bullet that addresses fundamental issues the stock oiling may have when subjected to track usage and a lot of high-rpm usage.
Peruse this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134863

Personally, if I was worried I would go with an aftermarket or modded pickup tube before an oil cooler...

Studs are easy to swap out. That is, if you know how to swap out studs. Even paying someone to do it is fairly simple.

Oil coolers are simple to swap out.

If you're worried about cost, then why mod it? If you are worried about maintaining the car 100% (as evidenced by your need to change oil trivially without the need to after 1-2 track days), why drive it?

I consider non-reversible mods to be things like widebody kits, roll cages, or generally any mod that requires a modification to the car that cannot be reversed (i.e. extra holes in sheet metal, etc)

1. Whether to make the warranty claim is up to the dealership service department. Subaru has an especially cagey record around honoring warranties. I never used the term "void", by the way, you are putting words in my mouth. I am WELL-ACQUAINTED with the law on the matter, I assure you.

Track use certainly does violate the terms of the warranty however, as the warranty is limited to defects caused by the manufacturer which occur under normal usage, taking the car on track falls outside normal usage.

There is a clear legal grey area where Subaru dealerships have a track record of refusing service and SOA backing them up. Toyota may feel differently, but it's well established in the Subaru community. One local dealer went so far as to hire a PI to post up at a local race track and photograph cars, and then they went and entered the photos and a track use note in every car's internal service record which was used to deny powertrain warranty claims.



Engine oil coolers, like any modification, do not directly invalidate the warranty. To refuse warranty coverage (and have it upheld if you pursue action), there needs to be sufficient evidence that the modification was at fault for the failure. A properly installed engine oil cooler is not likely to cause any faults, and most dealerships will not deny a claim based on its presence and if denied you can pursue with a high chance of success.


2. "Anything can fail" is a truism, but quality does matter. I don't understand your argument here unless it's a poor attempt at defending people being cheap with critical systems? Stop buying fleabay parts for important modifications... it greatly increases the risk for no benefit. Personally, if I were a dealership and I saw someone had used an OEM part from another car (e.g. FXT heat exchanger) or used a high-quality proven aftermarket part (Jackson Racing) I'd be less likely to suspect the modification than if they used garbage ebay parts... that goes generally for /any/ modification.


If warranty coverage is the most important thing to you, don't put your car on track and don't make any modifications. Simple as that. Otherwise, do what you want to enjoy your car, but have enough self-respect to be honest about the quality of the components you use and the possible risk and impact of that quality. Don't be an idiot.




Using heavier weight oil can help with pressure drops and is recommended for track use or any heavy use, even in the owner's manual (0W20 is normal spec, heavy use spec is 5W30 for this platform). But the temperature issues on this platform are well understand and reported, an engine oil cooler is the best, simplest, and most basic protection you can take to bring things under control under heavy use. There is absolutely no reason to avoid installing one if you are tracking the car, and a bevy of reasons why you should.


No, it's not going to solve the fundamental design flaws in the oiling system, but as you can see from the forums many people have tried and only a few things have proven out to help (machining front cover for oversized oil pump gear). Generally for stock power on a stock block, all of this is just unnecessary, basic pressure management is sufficient to prevent oiling related engine failures and there are hundreds of people with thousands of on-track miles on engines to prove it out. An engine oil cooler is the first line in that defense... arguing against it while simultaneously pointing to the exact flaws it helps with is weird to say the least.

Denial isn't denial, as Subaru found out when they recently lost a class-action lawsuit related to ringland failures in EJ engines.


You're calling people uninformed, but you're the one who is spouting off things which are fundamentally not true. An engine oil cooler does not result in a net pressure drop. There is a negative effect on pressure due to expanding the size of the oiling system, but this is mostly offset by increasing system volume due to the incompressibility of fluids in hydraulic systems. Furthermore, it results in a net increase in oil pressure at operating temperature once warm viscosity has been established due to the effects of the temperature/pressure curve and the fact it's cooling the engine oil... in other words the entire point of an oil cooler and why it helps with oil pressure on track.

As I pointed out in my first post, the ENTIRE point of an engine oil cooler on this platform is to prevent pressure drops at high temperatures under hard usage on track. It has nothing to do with oil breakdown as even without a cooler this platform rarely reaches those temperatures (uncooled cars sit around 270-280F on track, cooled they sit close to 210F, operating temperature is 190F, pressure drop becomes significant around 240F, oil breakdown for full synthetics typically starts around 300F).


If you'd ever installed an oil pressure gauge and taken measurements, you'd already know this firsthand.


I'm a former engineer that now works in product design with a focus on product liability and compliance (not in the auto industry though)... I've spent a considerable amount of time researching this topic because I track my car, you're woefully mistaken in saying my posts in this thread are uninformed.