Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Tracking / Autocross / HPDE / Drifting (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39)
-   -   General question: how do you justify installing parts that may not be reversible? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136256)

Jordanwolf 08-13-2019 04:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 3247380)
Didn't you read? He's gotta keep the pressure up, not chill.
Chilling the oil will result in keeping the pressure up. Unless I have been misinformed thus far.

Clutch Dog 08-13-2019 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3246523)
or my favorite

"wing, what wi...HOLY COW SOMEONE RUINED MY CAR WITH A UGLY WING!!! now i need to spend thousands to change it back!"
I feel attacked...



I only spent 600 bucks to get the frs wing holes filled and new holes drilled for the ts wing and then paint..


good news if i wanted to sell it. i can do it as a whole piece.

the whole car. 20k XD

ZDan 08-13-2019 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristor (Post 3246973)
Using heavier weight oil can help with pressure drops and is recommended for track use or any heavy use, even in the owner's manual (0W20 is normal spec, heavy use spec is 5W30 for this platform). But the temperature issues on this platform are well understand and reported, an engine oil cooler is the best, simplest, and most basic protection you can take to bring things under control under heavy use. There is absolutely no reason to avoid installing one if you are tracking the car, and a bevy of reasons why you should.
I've researched this extensively, and I haven't seen any evidence that the "high" oil temperatures the stock cars see of ~270F is necessarily a problem for "casually" tracked cars. I have seen tons of people *assume* that it must be, though...

Reasons one might *avoid* installing one:
$$$$, time, effort expended, overcooling of oil in colder temps, additional potential failure points, fire risk.

Quote:
An engine oil cooler is the first line in that defense... arguing against it while simultaneously pointing to the exact flaws it helps with is weird to say the least.
??? The thread I pointed to was about cavitation at high rpm, which they solved with a different pickup tube. I don't think that issue would be helped by an oil cooler.

Regarding pressure, here's some data from this thread:
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91820
http://i.imgur.com/m8H5JBA.jpg
Note that while temps are 20-25F cooler with the oil cooler, the pressure is actually the same, ~7.5psi/1000-rpm for 5W30 oil, at ~250F with cooler or at ~272F without the cooler. I.e. any gain in pressure from running cooler oil is lost as pressure drop in the cooler.

My oil temps get up to ~272F, but always stabilize and never try to "run away".

In my opinion, the NEED for an oil cooler for limited tracking of stockish cars might be overstated...

I've mentioned this in other threads, but here it is again for reference only (not saying this definitely means anything for our cars!)
here's how Ford characterizes oil temperatures in '18 Mustang Factory Service Manual:
38-60° C (100-140° F) (low)
61-137° C (142-279° F) (normal)
138-146° C (279-295° F) (warm)
147-160° C (297-320° F) (hot)

Leonardo 08-13-2019 07:48 PM
Measure twice (ok three times) CUT ONCE!

Don't add stupid mods that only a high schooler would appreciate, and you will be fine.

I screwed my side skirts to my car. There are holes on each side. My front bumper had a lip, I ripped it off; holes there too. Oh well. I also skinned the seats and added leather. It took long enough I would NEVER consider removing it. (I might not actually do it again, it was a PITA!)

soundman98 08-13-2019 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clutch Dog (Post 3247400)
I feel attacked...



I only spent 600 bucks to get the frs wing holes filled and new holes drilled for the ts wing and then paint..


good news if i wanted to sell it. i can do it as a whole piece.

the whole car. 20k XD
cheaper than me so far! bought a gt-r trunk lid for $600, replacement oem spoiler trunk lid for $300, and i still need to fill and paint it all...

pcs 08-21-2019 02:10 PM
ummm... use that advice on 270+ oil temps to your own peril.

You're willing to run with risk to your engine and reduced power instead of opting for an oil cooler...?

Speaking with guys who deal with oil regularly, sure, you can touch 260+ in a session, maybe even a few times a day. It might not be a big deal, but it does start to break down. You'll want to change the oil when you get home (or run oil that's breaking down already the next time you go out).

This is the problem with the internet. Just because someone is willing to risk their own stuff and it has "worked for them" doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Get a good oil cooler. Don't run Xw50 oil. Monitor oil temps, and go drive the shit out of the car.

why? 08-22-2019 08:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcs (Post 3250172)
ummm... use that advice on 270+ oil temps to your own peril.

You're willing to run with risk to your engine and reduced power instead of opting for an oil cooler...?

Speaking with guys who deal with oil regularly, sure, you can touch 260+ in a session, maybe even a few times a day. It might not be a big deal, but it does start to break down. You'll want to change the oil when you get home (or run oil that's breaking down already the next time you go out).

This is the problem with the internet. Just because someone is willing to risk their own stuff and it has "worked for them" doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Get a good oil cooler. Don't run Xw50 oil. Monitor oil temps, and go drive the shit out of the car.
and if you plan on tracking the car a lot get an oil baffle in the pan as well. If dry sump wasn't so expensive i bet half the track guys would have a system by now.

ZDan 08-22-2019 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcs (Post 3250172)
You're willing to run with risk to your engine and reduced power instead of opting for an oil cooler...?
Ah, "risk"... Thing is, the risk of running synthetic oil at 270F is IMO overstated. While installing an oil cooler or having one installed is not a zero-risk proposition...

Reduced power, does the ECU pull timing or something? I'd be very interested to see what the actual power loss is. I haven't noticed this at the track. I wonder how many consecutive dyno pulls I'd have to do to get oil temp up to 270F...

Quote:
Speaking with guys who deal with oil regularly, sure, you can touch 260+ in a session, maybe even a few times a day. It might not be a big deal, but it does start to break down. You'll want to change the oil when you get home (or run oil that's breaking down already the next time you go out).
I usually change the oil after two track events, 4 track days. But as far as synthetic oils "breaking down" due to temperature, 270F is not particularly hot. I think most oil experts would agree that even 300F is not a problem for good synthetic oil. For sure I wouldn't be comfortable at over 250F with non-synth.

Quote:
This is the problem with the internet. Just because someone is willing to risk their own stuff and it has "worked for them" doesn't mean it's a good idea.
And just because so many people repeat "you MUST have an oil cooler!", that doesn't make it so.

I would be a lot more worried about this if I saw the oil temp continue to rise, but it always goes to the same temp and then holds. As if it's thermostatically controlled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by why? (Post 3250399)
and if you plan on tracking the car a lot get an oil baffle in the pan as well. If dry sump wasn't so expensive i bet half the track guys would have a system by now.
Oil baffle seems like a good idea, but also not a zero-risk proposition. Seems like there was one that led to oil pressure issues?

Dry sump is cool but far from fool-proof! I've been at the track where a guy lunched his new engine build due to issues with his dry-sump setup. Oops...

I'm all for preventive mods. But you have to weigh risk of doing nothing vs. risk of introducing new problems... Obviously I've decided that for me, the risk of running full synth 5w30 at 270F for ~15-20 minute sessions at the track without an oil cooler is tolerable.

timurrrr 08-22-2019 12:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3250439)
Reduced power, does the ECU pull timing or something? I'd be very interested to see what the actual power loss is.
Basic thermodynamics: the cooler the heat sink of an internal combustion engine, the more efficient it is (i.e. more power per stroke). I'd be curious to see what's the practical difference between 250F oil and 270–280F oil when it comes to power output though.

ZDan 08-22-2019 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timurrrr (Post 3250446)
Basic thermodynamics: the cooler the heat sink of an internal combustion engine, the more efficient it is (i.e. more power per stroke).
For sure the cooler the intake temps, the denser the intake charge, the more power. But that's not strictly related to oil temperatures. If it's desirable to keep the engine cooler, I think keeping coolant temps lower would be more related to that than oil temp.
Quick search result:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/engine-oil-temperature/
As for ultimate power potential, the general consensus among most racers is that hot oil and cool water make more power in most engines.
A full-synthetic oil will withstand sump temperatures in excess of 300 degrees, and for hard-core professional racing, some oval-track race teams are experimenting with ultra-thin, specially formulated, race-only synthetics operating at 350 degrees or even higher.

Quote:
I'd be curious to see what's the practical difference between 250F oil and 270–280F oil when it comes to power output though.
Yeah, me too. I don't think the difference in oil temp in and of itself would make much difference (if anything, thinner hotter oil should give slightly more power, not that I think that's a good way to add power!), but if timing is pulled at a certain oil temp that could be more significant.

pcs 08-26-2019 11:41 AM
No one is going to force you to do anything. You can convince yourself what's needed or not needed at your own reward or peril.
I convince myself to do different things all the time.


GLHF - sometimes everyone says the same thing not because they are all on the bandwagon, but maybe, just maybe, the earth isn't flat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDan (Post 3250439)
Ah, "risk"... Thing is, the risk of running synthetic oil at 270F is IMO overstated. While installing an oil cooler or having one installed is not a zero-risk proposition...

Reduced power, does the ECU pull timing or something? I'd be very interested to see what the actual power loss is. I haven't noticed this at the track. I wonder how many consecutive dyno pulls I'd have to do to get oil temp up to 270F...

I usually change the oil after two track events, 4 track days. But as far as synthetic oils "breaking down" due to temperature, 270F is not particularly hot. I think most oil experts would agree that even 300F is not a problem for good synthetic oil. For sure I wouldn't be comfortable at over 250F with non-synth.

And just because so many people repeat "you MUST have an oil cooler!", that doesn't make it so.

I would be a lot more worried about this if I saw the oil temp continue to rise, but it always goes to the same temp and then holds. As if it's thermostatically controlled.


Oil baffle seems like a good idea, but also not a zero-risk proposition. Seems like there was one that led to oil pressure issues?

Dry sump is cool but far from fool-proof! I've been at the track where a guy lunched his new engine build due to issues with his dry-sump setup. Oops...

I'm all for preventive mods. But you have to weigh risk of doing nothing vs. risk of introducing new problems... Obviously I've decided that for me, the risk of running full synth 5w30 at 270F for ~15-20 minute sessions at the track without an oil cooler is tolerable.

pcs 08-26-2019 11:43 AM
yes, the engine does pull timing. touching those temps is not a big deal, sustaining those temps does break down the oil faster.

ZDan 08-26-2019 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcs (Post 3251541)
No one is going to force you to do anything. You can convince yourself what's needed or not needed at your own reward or peril.
I convince myself to do different things all the time.
I didn't research the issue to convince myself "I don't need an oil cooler". I researched the issue with a totally open mind and fully expected to confirm the conventional wisdom and then to get an oil cooler installed. But the more I looked into it, the less necessary it seemed to me, at least for my car and my usage. My decision is primarily based on three points:
1) My indicated oil temp gets to ~272F and stabilizes, does not continue to get hotter.
2) 272F is not a problem for frequently-changed synthetic oil
3) We have data that shows oil pressure running at 270-275F without an oil cooler is the same as running the same oil at 250F *with* an oil cooler.

Quote:
GLHF - sometimes everyone says the same thing not because they are all on the bandwagon, but maybe, just maybe, the earth isn't flat.
False equivalence... I am open to being shown actual *evidence* that an oil cooler is necessary for my car and my usage. I've looked for it but haven't found it.

NoHaveMSG 08-26-2019 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by timurrrr (Post 3250446)
Basic thermodynamics: the cooler the heat sink of an internal combustion engine, the more efficient it is (i.e. more power per stroke). I'd be curious to see what's the practical difference between 250F oil and 270–280F oil when it comes to power output though.
Not exactly sure what my oil temp was but looking at my data on my aim my peak speed on the front strait was pretty consistent all day through all sessions.


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