Camber bolts or crash bolts for max spring perch clearance?
 

Hi all,

I have a set of Apex ARC-8 Wheels that are 17x9 +42. With 0 camber and stock top hats, the tire is about 3mm from the lower spring perch

I am looking to add camber via bolts but I am not sure if I should get camber bolts or crash bolts.

From my understanding crash bolts move the entire hub closer to the strut via the top hole which could cause problems, but camber bolts push the lower part of the hub out via that lobe thing, which angles the hub.

Since camber bolts typically re-use the OEM upper 16mm bolt, would that mean that the hub would be further away form the strut than the crash bolts, and allow for more camber?

TIA

Not exactly. You can use the lobbed bolt in the lower hole, but the pivot point of the hub on the shock body will be centered at the 16mm bolt. This means that even though you are pushing the hub away from the shock body at 14mm bolt location, the top of the wheel will still be angled inwards toward the spring perch (because of course it is, its neg. camber). Now it might give a tiny bit of extra room to work with, but it probably won't be anything worth relying on.

I'm in the same boat as you here, only with 17x8 +45 wheels. Tirerack recommends 3mm as the minimum clearance you should have between the tire and spring perch. I've got -.9 currently with about 8mm of clearance, which leaves me room for possibly up to -1.5, but that's the max without using spacers or getting new wheels. I love my OZ Legerra HLTs though, so...no.

I can see why you're also interested in those Pedders top hats. lol A quality set of top hats/camber plates really is the answer for you here I think, assuming you're like me and don't want to change your wheels...

May i suggest also powerflex pff69-801g bushings then? They won't net much extra camber, i got some 0.8dg above maxed out camberbolt's range, but as they are on front control arm rear joint, they space it a bit out to get camber.
As for camber bolts .. there exist for both lower 14mm (SPC 81305) and upper 16mm holes (Whiteline KCA416)

I think the issue is less a matter of how to get more camber, and more a matter of how to get extra clearance for said camber.


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You have a few options... Spacers, different offset wheels, or coilovers will make the gap between your wheel and suspension larger: allowing you to add more camber.

Unless I'm missing something, with only 3mm of room, you will need to choose one of those options...

Upper camber plates are you only option, unless you change something else.

I have a set of RPF1s in 17x9 +35 that’ll fit everything I want to do but just such a shame about the ARC-8 fitment...I currently have STi spring/B6 Bilstein that’ll last me a while before they blow and I have to get a 60mm coilover kit.

I had also ordered 5mm spacers but saw afterwards they should really be used with aftermarket lugs so I returned them. I’m not sure 3mm spacers will give me my desired results so I may put these wheels up for sale :(

I think I’m going to do SPC camber bolts in the lower hole, and if I can’t get any camber due to clearance issues I’ll use the bolts to simply even out camber.

As you can see by this pic, I’ll take any of the negative camber I can get lol.

https://i.imgur.com/1waTGjk.jpg

I originally had some HVT camber plates but they were a little rough for my DD needs. I ordered Pedders angled rubber top hats hoping I can get at least .7 degrees + whatever natural camber there could possibly be from a 15mm drop.

Adding negative camber will worsen the issue not matter where you stick the crash/camber bolt. Your only choice is coilovers, spacers, not run those wheels, or take some negative camber away.

As an aside, how are you liking the STi/Bilstein setup? I'm eyeing that setup if something happens to my PP Sachs.

I’m loving it. My car is primarily a DD so I wanted road clearance for my awful local roads but still be lower than stock. I combined this setup with shorter bump stops to make my suspension travel essentially stock. I feel like the sti springs (mine are JDM) pair with the full length B6 struts/shocks very nicely because of its minimal 10-15mm drop. Very comfy, and I can actually go fast on a warped canyon road.

However they are progressive and on the softer side (about 175#f, 225#r). To take advantage of my 200tw tires I bought the 2017+ rear sway bar and a Perrin 19mm front bar. This feels very similar to my old RCE springs minus the squat and dip present with this current setup.

I still think I could run faster times with stiffer overall spring rates at the track, but I am 99% DD. In the future I will most likely go with RCE SS1 coilovers to avoid these fitment issues, hopefully keep a soft DD ride, while significantly reducing body roll.

You can try having both camber bolts on the top and bottom slots and adding the powerflex lower front arm camber bushing to get more camber and still have a bit space from the spring perch. IIRC a one guy on the forum was able to reach -3 camber with that setup on stock coilovers and I think he tracks as well

The consensus is not to run 2 camber bolts but I have not had it snap or slip. I personally run two camber bolts in my fronts for over 10k miles as DD with spirited runs here and there. Just got new tires and did an alignment and was able to achieve -2.5 on both sides. IIRC, at one point, I was able to achieve near -3 camber with those two bolts.

Edit: it was actually @churchx (user from above) who has the setup I mentioned.

The power flex seems like a good idea but on the expensive and “permanent” side. I’m going to look into how much a bushing tool is to see if I can minimize installation costs.

And yes just one eccentric bolt for me. 2 may be safe, but that’ll be for another time if necessary.

Both the crash bolts and lobed bolts work the exact same way, the lobed bolts are just better if you don't want the max negative camber available.


If you look at the front suspension setup, camber bolts in either the top of bottom hole on the strut/knuckle is going to give roughly the same clearance between tire and spring seat.

Bach415: for me (with stock shocks & stock height) camberbolts at both holes: ~ -2.3, +those bushings: ~ -3. If you got -2.5 with just camberbolts, i guess, you are also lowered?

norcalpb: not that permanent, though of course original bushing needs to be pressed out, and powerflex's pressed in, but nothing difficult or long for suspension shop, and they are adjustable when installed too (middle eccentric insert can be turned with provided key, though i just installed at maxed out position (though same with upper camberbolts) and fine-adjustment done only via lower camberbolts, as easiest to access), and though more expensive then camberbolts (£90.90), camberbolts + those bushings still cost less then eg. camberbolts + camberplates. And i couldn't live with later anyway due NVH issues, so was happy to get -3 with still stock rubber topmount.

wparsons: but why do people get slightly more camber when maxed out with lobed camberbolts vs crashbolts? Not by much, but IIRC some extra -0.2 or so .. at least wasn't camberbolt at lower hole + relocated stock "crashbolt" to upper 16mm commonly ~ -2 to -2.1dg?

Would you say there was added NvH from this camber bushing? I have a messed up brain when it comes to modding. I’ll spend $440 on flexible V bars but $180 for something that’ll make my car handle better? No way man lol.

Hmm .. a bit hard to say .. when i installed these powerflex bushings i also installed whiteline anti-dive/caster correction bushing (IIRC KCA434) which is also less compliant .. oh, and as bearing in one of stock topmounts went bad, replacements bought were group-n (also rubber, but more rigid) topmounts. Overall .. yes, slight NVH increase .. but! - by allowing to retain rubber topmounts while still get -3 camber for track (without slotting struts) was my aim and i got it (SPC 81305 & KCA416 camberbolts + that powerflex PF69-801G bushing (PF69-801GB - "black" even less compliant analog of it). And that solved my quest of acceptable compromise between NVH & more camber, as before that i tried many times camberbolts+camberplates, but couldn't solve NVH issues that were above my acceptable treshold. With pillowball camberplates on road defects that moved wheel up sharply (eg. going over rail track, over connections of bridge segments, over potholes or roudbumps with sharp edges (for speed), where road is maintenanced and has sudden height change between old & new tarmac, some types of other roadbumps/holes on generally bad roads here) i got loud hits that sounded like dropping toolbox on concrete and it scared me as to not break something in car. Imho pillowball topmounts vs rubber topmounts is single most NVH inducing bit, relatively to which NVH change of those controlarm bushings is minimal and acceptable.
Probably if pedder topmounts had been out by then, i also would have tried those, but back then those powerflex bushings were only option to get extra camber ontop of camberbolts, as whiteline com-Cs were proven to not work on twins without failing, and pedder's PED-580096 got known (maybe released too) only relatively very recently. Before that bushing options of extra camber were even more limited, with camberplates being only option. And i found out experimentally, that not acceptable option for me. I could also slot struts .. but was against about unreversible mods (that would also make car not MOT inspection passable, if noticed).

For some reason, it's not letting me quote, so I'll just mention/tag.

@norcalpb You can probably rent a bushing tool from oReillys for free. They will just hold a charge on your card until you return the item (48 hour rent time). I thought about doing it to get to -3 camber, but when I realize I can achieve close to that amount with just camber bolts and natural negative camber from lowering the car, I decided to spend the money on the roll center kit instead. Alternatively, you can always trade your front control arms w/ the powerflex + cash on top if anything were to happen.

Side note: I am running aftermarket coilovers but with the Group N top hats. Almost similar to Churchx's configuration minus the camber bushing, coilovers, and height.

@churchx Yes I am lowered. I honestly do not know how much I am lowered as I didn't measure prior but we are looking at about 3/4"-1" gap from wheel to the fender arch. Also running aftermarket coilovers so I do not have an issue with spring perch.

How do you like your Pedder angled rubber top hats? Any issue so far? How many km you have on the Pedder top hats and HVT camber plates?

Thanks!