Car & Driver Mag: Supra vs 86 Center of Gravity
 

Car & Driver Magazine: The 86 has a lower center of gravity than the Supra:

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...-claim-tested/

I was wondering about Toyota's claim . . . :popcorn:

Its the typical marketer's tune, the newest and more expensive product is always better in every way. Toyota is playing with fire if they made false claim, especially in the litigation happy US of A. Any engineer can prove the claim is fraudulent and if someone said they bought the car based on that claim, they can take it to court and the sale would be null and void. I think one can reasonably construe that for a sports car, center of gravity is a key consideration in the purchase decision.
Even if there are no lawsuits, it will make them look like fools and be a big embarrassment for Supra owners. Bad move on Toyota's part. Its the spirit of the older generation Supra coming back to haunt them for tainting their legendary name with this abomination of a car.

why compare...both cars are not the same class....

Doesn't the 86 have one of, if not the lowest COG of any production road car?

True, but people like to compare things .... lesser dollar value versus a bit higher dollar value, or two vehicles from the same manufacture (which in this case isn't the same : Toy/Subaru vs. Toy/BMW ).

The COG thing, yeah it depends upon where they are measuring from/to. Did they then measure 2-3 times to get a good accurate measurement ? I'd think it's easy to make a claim like this, but be off by 3mm (the new Supra say is 3mm taller) , and come out in some press meeting saying "it was an honest mistake" after the fact.

Some posters here have said a certain generation Miata and late model Corvette has a bit lower COG then the 86. There was a posting/info here that clearly said the LFA and .... I think it was a 455 Ferarri has a bit lower COG by 10-20mm then the 86. Motor Trend/Car and Driver needs to do a dedicated article just on COG, how it's measured , and say the top 25 sports cars that have the lowest...... in the last 50-60 years of production.:party0030:

Its stated in the article that Toyota is claiming a lower CoG on the Supra because they measured it with 18" rims fitted to the car. However in the US the Supra will come equipped with 19's, hence the discrepancy.

Sweet. Also the GR package will , pretty sure lower the car by roughly 1" , so there is a element there as well.

Hey, Toyota also claims this Supra 3L turbo gets better MPG then our twins. I call BS on that one as well , unless it's someone with a 86, shifting well above 4k RPM on every shift .... then maybe, maybe the Supra gets better MPG by 1 , since the Supra is a automatic

Aren't those EPA ratings? You can't exactly lie about that. That and the MT car has extremely short gears for 6 speed. Meanwhile the AT 86 has extremely tall gears that allows it to beat out the Supra's MPG ratings at 32/24.

The Supra also has the flexibility of an 8 speed transmission, so it has all the benefits of short gearing with the economy of tall gearing.

I'd trust my right foot and shifting habits , and actual calculated MPG results in filling / refilling , over what some kind of whole number EPA wants to feed me.

Real world MPG from Supra, we'll see what people are getting later this summer/Fall then compare.

Agree, 86 is much better. its in the true sports car class. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifGR Supra is in the overweight with 14 way adjustable seat debatable sport car class

when the 86 was launched, Toyota said that its COG is less than one inch higher than their almighty over $300K LFA. So now they are saying the GR Supra COG is one inch lower than the 86 which makes it lower than the LFA??!!

It goes on to say they don't think that is enough to make up the difference.

C&D determined in their measurements that the 86 had a COG that was 1.5 inches lower than the Supra. Putting wheels that are 1 inch smaller in diameter on the Supra should only lower it's COG by .5 inches, correct?

There is basically no difference in height/CoG between the 18" and 19" wheels because of the tire diameters:


255/40/18 - 26.0"
275/40/18 - 26.7"


255/35/19 - 26.0"
275/35/19 - 26.6"


Crappy attempt from Toyota to cover their lie with more lies lol

Thank you wheel diameter means nothing. Tire diameter is what you need to know.

Did they measure an 86 with the trd lowering springs? If that's the case then I would imagine that would bring the numbers a lot closer to equal.

I remember a reference to Tadasan saying that he wanted the 86 lowered about an inch but others made it higher. So it was designed to be lowered some.

Not with the OEM dampers or the lack of camber adjustment.

The marketing was spot on though.

Opinions may vary

Centre of gravity and front/rear weight ratio are not the whole truth, if measured without the driver. Other factors affecting these figures are the level of fuel and the suspension spring rate.

Conducting an endless argument about a 5mm difference in the static, unloaded centre of gravity seems futile. Perhaps the time may be better spent taking the Toybaru out for a spin and appreciate the great handling afforded by its very, very low centre of gravity?

No. We must discuss driving, not actually do driving. Everyone knows better than everyone.

Want to know what has the lowest center of gravity? Benches.

Car and Driver loves to do these things, but then not say there are multiple ways to measure such things, and that doesn't include whether the vehicle was totally empty of fluids or totally full, etc. There are so many little details than can change this stuff.

Supra sucks. Shoulda bought a civic.

I can't recall another time when Toyota made unsubstantiated factual claims for any vehicle. Marketing fluff doesn't count.

Car & Driver wants to generate controversy to grab more eyeballs and sell more ads. They'll need the revenue if Toyota's legal team fires back and/or pulls advertising from Hearst publications.

Let's let this play out. Toyota will have to respond, Supra is their halo car and this attack comes prior to release in their biggest market. I predict a CYA retraction from C&D soon, they'd be insane to double down.

Hilariously put, but SO damn true!

I totally understand they couldn't start developing one from scratch due to R&D investment required, but they should've just left the poor Supra name alone.

If you can't do it right, just leave it alone. No harm in collaborating with BMW, just leave the Supra name out of it because this simply isn't one...

That's not how it works.

C&D can show their work - something Toyota hasn't done.

At absolute best/worst, Toyota will put out how they arrived at their number which might show their claim is factually accurate even if not practically. Similar to those recent Chevy ads where they claimed they were more reliable than Camry and Accord (and it turned out it was based on a limited sampling of one model year three years into ownership).

If Toyota responds with their work, C&D will happily report that as well, probably with a rebuttal. They don't need to take anything back.

And let's be honest, I didn't believe Toyota on this particular tidbit either.

First time I heard this claim I was in utter disbelief as well...and also slightly butthurt :bellyroll:

Yet. Not that Toyota is above criticism but C&D will need to justify their test methods that might have skipped a step during prep.

http://www.longacreracing.com/techni...spx?item=42586

Until both cars are tested after identical prep on the same rig, I'll trust Toyota's claim.

GR Supra vs 86 , the GR Supra will have a lowering spring in it when bought new, to achieve that height. So if you lower your 86/twin by 1" (TRD or RCE springs) it'll be the same COG +/- 1-2mm. At least that's what it looks like on paper at this point, but should be very close. The LFA is in a totally different class, super /hyper car , but again peoples can compare things all day long to try and gain some kind of meaning out of the comparison.

How much is a GR Supra…. $60k ? I thought I heard the first batch being imported is sold out.

Not the first time a big company has lied in the interest of the bottom line. Sony knew very well that Milli Vanilli were frauds, VW and their emission scam, Hyundai and the exaggerated mpg claim... why would we think Toyota is immune to this?
... and "the first batch being sold out" is another typical marketing scheme. How many cars in that first batch? 10, 20, 50? Companies purposely release a tiny batch to generate hype and long waiting list. I used to work with marketers so heard about a lot of the tricks. These guys are paid to push their claims to the very edge without crossing the line and get sued. Occassionally some loose and stupid ones cross the line. The COG thing may be an example.

I agree, but the very nature of COG is a hypothetical measurement. Car manufactures know this, and exploit this fact. 2-4mm either way +/- , and one could say it's better or not as good of a car. It's numbers, but it's a play on the numbers , then it comes down to who did the measurements.

TRD Springs are put on OEM shocks from port.

Which doesn't help the suspension travel, what are TRD springs for a twin? 20mm, how much travel before the damper hits the bump stop?.......that puts them "into" the bump stop.

Yes these cars ride on the bump stops, to a point, but losing height via a spring change has its negative consequences.

Marketing trumps engineering.

Opinions may vary

This whole car is whack, Toyota's marketing department is in overdrive to give this car clout. Same can be said about all the vents and scoops Toyota claims can be made functional for racing, but unless you start cutting hard in to the unibody and running impossible ducting (something even the most advanced race teams will avoid), it's all a flat out lie to cover up design features over functionality.
Also I find it highly suspect that the Z4, which should have equivalent or better COG (no roof), doesn't also play on this line of marketing.

Well, it has a roof, and all the heavy electric motors and mechanisms to make it function are quite aways above the floor.

Haha... Soopra is the Milli Vanilli of sports cars.

Perhaps, quoted weight for the Z4 is, on average, about 10kilos more than the Supra. Also the mass doesn't have to be on the floor or lower to contribute to a lower center of gravity.

I think part of the reason BMW doesn't advertise CoG for the Z4 is because that's not really the goal of the platform. Yeah, they say they wanted to go more sporty than the previous generation Z4 and Z3, but ultimately they're still roadsters first and foremost. The M2 is their "sports" car.

But yeah - it probably is higher than the Supra thanks to the added weight of the motors and whatnot.

People quibbling over a CoG difference of just a few mm between Supran and 86 platform, playing right into Toyota's marketing department efforts to distract from a ~600 pound difference between the two...

not really, we all know the Supra is much heavier. It has to be for the price, there are lots of features and electronics that they literally could not do without and actually be able to sell the car.