Shopping between BRZ and MX-5. Can't get over torque dip.
 

So long story short, been following this car since concept (thus my reg date) and never made the call to trade in my X-Runner for this car. Now the X-Runner is 14 years old and I'm on my way to purchasing "something" whatever that might be. I'm cross shopping this thing (BRZ mostly) against the MX-5. I just came back from a test drive of both 2019 models in MT, and am still torn which one I want to get.

Even though I don't own the car, even I'm sick of people talking about the torque dip. So I'm sure you all are more sick of it than I am. I must admit it's the very reason I have never pulled the trigger on this car. However the time has come. I have to buy something soon. My X-Runner is developing 3rd gear issues with grinds before it's fully warmed up, and gas mileage is making a new car purchase worth it.

The one thing I haven't followed up on would be the aftermarket scene. Since this car will most likely be maybe 2K - 3K less than the MX-5 per the options I want, I would have a budget of 2K - 3K to work with on mods. The only thing is, I most likely wouldn't be messing with any mods that'll violate California emissions tests. Even though that's a long ways away, I'm not looking to put my daily driver in shops tuning it all the time. Nor am I looking for that one bad luck ticket that'll take all my time to resolve. So mods are most likely going to be cat back / some aesthetics. I do plan on getting a whole lot of audio work done too if I get the BRZ, while the MX-5 would be purely driving focused.

I have to say the MX-5's "go" was a lot better than the BRZ without a doubt. Not even a contest. However, the BRZ's behavior in turns was a bright spot. Though I suspect with more time on the MX-5 I'd be more familiar with its limits and would gain the same confidence. The MX-5 overall was a bit more floaty, and it was a HUGE adjustment in seating position in the MX-5 coming from the X-Runner, while the BRZ felt a lot more at home.

I drive 80 miles a day on my commute, and the BRZ's utility is worth something to me. I just can't get over the torque dip. After driving the MX-5, it felt pretty gutless up until 6K, and I don't see myself visiting 6K all to often on my commute. Same can be said about the MX-5 where the improved power numbers are all in the extra rev band compared to last year. That's 6.5K to 7.5K. The difference is, the damn car pulls in every RPM range. You feel it surging the whole time. The lack of torque dip is nice on the MX-5, but I can't get over the lack of storage of any kind, and the lack of a spare for my 80 mile commute. Still, it was so fast, and the fly wheel was so much easier to shift too. The BRZ seems like it likes to hang the revs a bit just like my cousin's WRX. Not a fan of that so much.

As far as looks, the MX-5 RF is a sexy ass car. I've always liked the 86 a bit more on looks, but recently it's been a toss between BRZ / 86. Only reason why I'm looking at the BRZ is because the 86 is ridiculously higher in price for similar options, and the BRZ has a bit better package option. Though I hate the stock spioler, but can live with it.

Either way, I'm torn, I'm sure some of you have probably gone though this, and most of you just decided to forget about smog regs and mod the hell out of the car to make it better than the MX-5. I just can't afford to do that for consistency sake.

I'm still waiting for quotes on the BRZ from dealers to see where numbers will be at, but I'm getting a WAY better price for the MX-5 and the gap is a lot smaller than I'd expect. I'm so torn I'm not sure what to do.

I had a MX5, I now have a 86.

MX5 is cool, pun intended, cruising around local back roads with your partner and it can hold luggage for a weekend, just.

Generally the same for the 86, BUT, alot more space, rear seats, that whilst are compromised, can fit in 2 small adults, just.

Power, for a street car there isn't alot of difference between the 2, unless your a traffic light hero, and then, they are both slow anyway.

The question is, do you want a 2 seater convertible or a 4 seater coupe.

I eventually got over the lack of space in my MX5.

Mods with $2000, good tyres, thats about $800, a real spare, $200?, then Ecutek tune for $1000?.

Profit

As for the torque dip, I don't notice it to cruising around, and when I'm up it, it's never that low in the rev range, honestly, I think marketing and Koolaid has more to do with the torque dip than actual real world outcomes, unless you think you are racecardriverbecauseracecar

Which gen MX-5 did you have? I have never owned a true sports car by any stretch, and the Miata feels fast without being fast. This was true in the NC and the ND I tested today. The BRZ just lacked that little extra something to make me feel the same. I don't street race, but I do like to rip mid rev band every once in a while. I also turn a lot faster than I should on nearly every opportunity. Usually in my X-Runner, I'll play around 2K to 4.5K on a 5.5K redline. I just feel that for me to get that something out of the BRZ, I'd have to ring it through to 6K+ and that's a lot of reving.

I think I can get over the BRZ while new on the speed thing. However, 5 years in, I'm afraid the drive will get stale. I honestly cannot see this happening with the MX-5. Just sitting in traffic with the top down would be something I'd enjoy every once in a while.

I don't have a preference how many seats the car has, but the back seats in the BRZ honestly is mainly storage. Though the lack of storage for the MX-5 is a huge negative for a car I plan on keeping for 10 years as my only vehicle.

Right now, if the price of the BRZ comes down low enough, I think I'm gong to have to make the sensible choice. However, if the price sits at around $2K difference, I might just bite the bullet and go MX-5 because it's a bucket list car for me.

The other little thing is, I think we're closer to the BRZ / 86 gen 2 than the NE MX-5. The MX-5 might still have four more years of production before the next gen, while we're maybe two years away from a new BRZ. If the new gen of BRZ / 86 changes the one t hing that sets these guys back, I wouldn't be too happy about it, unless the price was worth it.

I had a NB.

If your just after a weekend car the ND RF MX5 might be your bag.

That's the only car I would swap out my current 86 for at the moment.

Too bad I need it as my daily. My X-Runner is starting to show signs it'll develop a running tab of repairs. So I'm looking for a main ride. If my X-Runner was in good shape, I can actually afford a 2nd hand MX-5 since I'll have two vehicles. Honestly though, aside from the trans, the truck isn't in horrible shape, but it's 160K in now and I'm looking at a 2K - 4K repair so far on it. Might as well have that go towards a replacement. I had literally just replaced the tires on it as well, Sport S4S.

The other situation is to buy two used cars, but I don't think I'd do that over having a better single car. The BRZ would be a better choice than two used cars. I'd get the utility, and the fun. Only catch is that the ND is its competition, and it's probably the best MX-5 to date. Even better than the Mazdaspeed one.

If I was looking for used, a NB SP or SE would be my pick.

Hard to find mint, low km and unmolested ones though, they are out there though, it just takes time, and cash, hard top is essential though.

I went from a 911 Turbo to an MX5 to an Frs. The MX5 was a great car and you can never go wrong with one. The handling of the 86 was just so much more what I was after plus I'm not a roadster fan. The Mazda was more for my wife and she did look cute as hell driving it.

The MX5 needs a different suspension setup hands down. The body roll was just way to extreme. The 86 is just so much more planted. You learn to drive around the torque dip. It's never been an issue for me. You can get a tune if it really bothers you.

You'll hear some / lots of people on here say, "man, I didn't buy this car to save on gas " or , " mpg / gas savings isn't a factor in my buying this car".

What ever, this car does well in the MPG department given it's a 2L. It's one of it's positives, so why not be proud of that fact ?!?!

This is one of the reasons why I'm making the switch. However, that being said, I'm not blind to the fact that the MX-5 has 34.5 mpg compared to the 29 in the MT BRZ. That's roughly a saving of about $450 a year for me on my commute between these two cars. It's $13xx and $17xx comparatively against my X-Runner. It won't pay for the car entirely, but it's a measurable savings that'll pay for insurance and then some.

Tire wear on my X-Runner is also very brutal. Even if I'm babying my drive (which I have for the last 27K miles due to transmission) the sheer weight is killing my tires and I don't go cheap on tires. Both of these cars will extend the life of good tires so much more than the X-Runner. My Pole Position S4 lasted maybe 22K miles. I just got Sport S4S on it today and I don't know if these will last past 25K. That's basically one year's worth of my commute.

So much money to be saved in both of these cars. I'm worried the next gen BRZ / 86 will improve on all of this though. So much so that this will be a worse value in a couple years.

People have been waiting on the next gen twin for years, and there is no sight of it anywhere. Totally not worth waiting for.

It sounds like you are trying to talk yourself out of the Miata. Don't do that. Just get the miata. You can always rent a car if you need one for a few days. If I didn't despise convertibles I would have probably bought a miata.

This is the advice everyone around me has given me and it's the most logical. I also live with my sister and brother in law. They have a Sienna and a XB. So I'm not completely SOL if I need to haul something.

I think if the price of the Limited BRZ with PP can come down to 28K flat before TTS, I might pull the trigger. Because a MX-5 with LSD, Bilstien, and BBK, would be 33K. Right now, the option without BBK is 30K. There's way more car in the BRZ than the MX-5 at that point. Not to mention the Android Auto upgrade for the MX-5 is another $500 - $600. While it's standard on the BRZ. The Mazda upgrade is also needed as it's near impossible to find a good spot to mount your phone. Also, going aftermarket on the MX-5 is also impossible. Not to mention, there's not touch screen for AA, only Carplay. I haven't researched, but I'd assume AA on BRZ features touch screen.

Right now I'm talking myself out of both cars, and talking myself in both cars. I have this thread, and one over at Miata forums. However, I'd have to say that the point you bring up is the ultimate wildcard. Utility is just a rental away. So if the price of the BRZ is not surprising enough, I might have to scratch one off the bucket list.

At least then if the twins get updated, I won't kick myself on having a 2019 when the upgrades this year have not been stellar. Honestly, if I could find a 2018 with PP, I think you can get an additional $2K off, but I haven't found any around my area. That would be the ultimate deal right now. I couldn't care less about push to start, and swapping out the deck in a BRZ is a breeze.

You kid, but I've thought about this, but figured I'd try to let the owners for these cars talk me in to one more than the other first LOL.

Look at it this way. I've joined this forum when this car was still in concept mode, and I've joined Miata forums since 2006 when the NC was around. These two cars have been on my radar for a very long time. It'll break my heart either way, but one more week and I think I'll have my answer once all the emails get handled. I hope without the help from a certain coin. :D

I actually was not joking. It sounds like you are firmly on the fence.

If you're on the fence or torque dip is the main sticking point.... this is not the car for you.

The mx5 has a feel to it, but performance wise the cars are very similar.

Best option.... rebuild the xrunner. It's already a great driver with plenty of utility.... and it's a cheaper and more desirable option than either vehicles.

The guy I bought my GT-86 from sold it for a 2018 MX-5 RF (manual, top trim), and we've had the opportunity to talk about how he thought both cars compared. While he generally enjoys the Mx-5, he misses the 86 quite a lot (and even suggested buying it back and having the dealer buy his MX-5 back). Talked to him again a year later and his opinion hadn't changed.

-The MX-5's way behind in the utility department - even his folding bicycle doesn't fit in the boot, while the '86 fits 4 18" wheels with some room to spare and both front seats still available. I'm not a fan of getting more utility than you need, but on a daily basis the 86 really has the edge (especially if you're coming from an SUV)
-It's much smaller on the inside - my 6'2" frame fits well in the '86, but I just couldn't drive an MX-5 for more than a few miles. And even if you're a little shorter and can fit, the extra room makes the car feel less cramped on longer drive & commutes. At least the '19 MX-5s add the reach-adjustable wheel which the prior model years didn't have
-One of his major gripes with the MX-5 was how soft the stock suspension was (his didn't have the bilstein shocks), and how the car didn't feel as sharp

The fuel economy on both cars, while much different on the EPA ratings, is actually quite close (I get 31mpg on winter tires with my 25 miles commute). The MX-5 has a little edge though.

Regarding the torque dip, after close to two years of owning the car, I've grown to know it, but it really doesn't bother me all that much. As someone else pointed out, when you're really going at it, you're above it. And it's over by 4.5 - 4.6k, not 6k as you suggested. I've actually kind of grown to like how it surges past 4.5k :) . To some extent the torque dip is also linked to the fact that the car has quite decent torque (for a 2.0NA, of course) around 2.5 - 3k, which makes the later dip all that more noticeable. It wouldn't feel that way if it had a little less torque down low.

The power will feel a little short after some time, but that's the same with 300hp cars, you just get used to what you have and end up wishing for more. That's also your responsibility - learn to enjoy what you've got - getting a higher powered car won't really solve that.

Last but not least, utility is indeed a rental away, but so is a $600 bill for repairing a chip in the back bumper :eyebulge: . Before the '86, I used to get rentals whenever I needed some extra space / utility, but while over a few times you might get lucky, over a longer period of time you're bound to be stuck with a repair bill for something you missed during the handover inspection. And borrowing / renting is time-consuming.

Oh and the '19 BRZ does have Androïd auto. And the BBK isn't really needed on either car I think. Plenty of people have tracked the twins extensively and never needed a BBK. Plus they make pads / disk changes much more expensive.

I love my truck, but dumping money in now after 14 years is not a good choice. Especially when my all highway miles are creeping in around 18 mpg. I've already switched off 91 because I'm getting such horrible mileage.

The torque dip obviously isn't something I'd want in a car, but if that's the worst thing about the car, it isn't the worst thing in the world to live with when compared to the lack of utility in the other. Like others have said, I can rent a truck if I really need it, but I forgot to mention reclining front seats so I can nap in the car is also a thing I will miss if I don't have it. I mean the torque dip is like a malformed nose on an otherwise perfect face. Not the end of the world, but it's a pretty glaring flaw.

The renting a truck thing does sway the decision towards MX-5 honestly. Still, there's a price to all of it. Until I get the numbers back from the dealers tomorrow, I won't know how much the scales have tipped. I'll inform everyone what that'll be when time comes, but either way, I think I'm going to be very happy. With just the slightest hint of regret.

Read an article in evo magazine where they were comparing the Miata RF, 86 and the Fiat 124 Spider and the 86 came out on top. They had a separate test for just the 86 (base version this time) and the Miata roadster and the 86 still edged it.

@KAuss sounds like our commute is similar lengths (I do 80 mile per day, and have done 146,000 miles in the 86).

Frankly, if this is going to be your commuter car, you are putting too much emphasis on the torque dip. If you are doing commute driving you don't notice it, and if you are stepping into the throttle you're going to be above it anyway. Honestly if someone had shown me the charts, I wouldn't have known it existed.

If you need room, the MX-5 is not the solution (check out my "Junk in the Trunk" thread for how roomy the 86 is).

For overall value I don't think the cars are close in comparison, 86 wins hands down, particularly as a commuter car. But, admittedly, I'm not a fan of the Miata, and while the newest is a better looking car than the previous ones, I still think they look like bathtubs on wheels.

As far as the "rent space when you need it" mantra, I'm not a believer. If I'm throwing down nearly $30K or more for my DD it needs to fit 95% of my daily driving tasks. Renting a car is just to inconvenient to have to do it on a regular (or even semiregular) basis.

This is probably the most convincing BRZ reply I've heard yet. Everything you said is logical. I appreciate the input. I mean hearing owners say the dip is workable after knowing it is reassuring. I'm also a fan of downshifting, so it's not like I'm against it. I just haven't had the chance to do that on my test drive, and I wasn't able to really turn it up past 6K during my experience. The salesperson wasn't saying anything, but I also didn't want to kill a new car's break in by driving it too hard. It was a very nice car after all.

This is going to be tough. It's 5:25 am and I have work in like 7 hours, and I can't sleep because I'm still up weighing everything out hahah. This is first world problems between dating a movie star, or a A list singer. Kinda wish the movie star could sing, and the singer can act, but they both drop dead gorgeous...

You're not wrong in the commute not needing the torque part. I use cruise control, but I'm also driving a truck I've owned for 14 years. Which has 18 mpg, and if I even so much think about putting the pedal down, I'm just looking at my gas needle dip LOL. So I've tried to live on the sane side as of late because the truck has dipped from 20 mpg going 85 mph in two years. Now it's 18 going 75.

I've actually looked at the space, and am well aware of the space being able to hold 4 tires and a jack from even the concept information from way back. I also found this picture that had a legend of every measurement of trunk space as well. Unfortunately, I have a dual Q series Kicker L7 sub in my truck right now, and that thing is 15 7/8" tall, while the trunk is 15.5" tall. If that thing was 17" tall, I would probably give the BRZ a bunch of pionts, but because I can't reuse those subs, I'm going to have to sell it with the truck. Still, that trunk space is going to be occupied by some kind of sub setup. It's actually more important to me knowing how I feel about my truck after 14 years. When I'm not driving like an idiot, having the subs really make my drive a lot sweeter. This is where the MX-5 has to make up for it with it being convertible. Since I won't have subs in that thing at all.

The one reason why the MX-5 will win as a commuter car though is because of the gas mileage. Even if you get on it with that thing, you'll be hard fetched to drop below 30mpg. Like I can probably drive it in 4th the whole time and it'll still have amazing mileage. It does not trump everything the BRZ can do better though. BRZ will halve many many more points making it a better commuter.

You bring good points up, and they're not wrong. I'll have 1K miles in either car after a month, so after that, I can fully test out the torque dip thing if I end up in the BRZ.

I've only had my 86 for about two months, but I 100% agree with this. The ultra-low-end torque combined with the throttle response is actually quite decent for around town. It's like they gave the car an around-town mode down low and a let's-have-fun mode up high. 2-for-1 deal.

You'd have less in a rebuild of a paid off, desirable, rare(ish) xrunner than it would cost to buy either of these cars.

I see xrunners going with 150k+ for what an 80k 13 frs sells for. Also.... utility.

Basically, don't buy a twin. I foresee more "problem" threads for us and buyer's remorse for you.

I could make you a great deal on a 2103 FRS...recall has been done. Less than 1/3 the price of what you're considering spending. You could buy my car, fix your xRunnsr, and still have$10k or more left over to spend!


Let me know if you're interested. ;)

I'd be paying cash for either the BRZ or MX-5, so I am not worried about the thing being paid off. Also, the X-Runner having value now is exactly why it's worth selling. Though my truck in current condition will probably not fetch more than 8.5K. Since no one is going to value the sound system in it, and the other mods I put on it. Though new Sport S4S is worth $1K alone.

I'd tell you I'd regret either the MX-5 or the BRZ. Because of the reasons already stated here. However, after I made my decision, it's one that I chose to go with. So I don't think it'll matter at that point. The only regret I'd have is if we're really two years away from a new gen, and I buy today.

This is exactly what stopped me from getting a NC. I bought the X-Runner in 2005, and the NC came out in 2006. Mid way through, I'd figure I'd sell the truck for the FRS, but didn't see the value in it at the time, but my job has changed in the last 5 years, and having paid for the gas to drive 80 miles these last 5 years have really hurt me. Not to mention, my job also netted me enough pay now to make it a good choice to switch.

So I'm dead set in getting something. Initially I thought I'd ride it out for another 6 months, but since I got the ball rolling, and the new car smell hit me today. I think I'll probably end up with a car by the end of this week.

I would love to have someone in the family take the truck, but I have no one to give it to lol. The truck is amazing, but I've had it for 14 years. If it was a 2013, maybe there's a chance I'd still keep it, but I think it's time to move on. If there's one decision that's definitely made, it's that I won't be keeping the truck.

On fuel mileage, here are my stats (also available in my Owner's Journal). It should be noted I have an AT, that I drive in manual about 50% of the time. The AT does get slightly better mileage than the MT. I am always the first off the light, and have never met a curve I don't take as a challenge, zero effort to hypermile.

355 Fill-Ups with an average of 33.12 MPG
My lowest mileage for a tank was 27.6MPG (1 instance)
A total of 8 tanks were below 30MPG (all city driving or stuck in traffic)
My Best was 40.6MPG (1 instance)
121 tanks were 32.6 to 33.6 MPG

Full history:

I would reserve comments about the torque dip to actual owners. This is a really big stigma about this car and seems to be the true complainers wanted a faster car, or a faster feeling car, something with the kick of an ecoboost mustang for example.

If the car is driven correctly, the torque dip is no issue. If the car is being daily driven in traffic and tons of lights, why is the torque dip a deciding factor at all?

In my very honest opinion, if you are scared of the torque dip and think it will hinder your fun with the car, you're looking at the wrong car and should move on. Get something with a turbo that 'feels' fast.

Anybody that owned a turbo car from the 90s should not even notice the "dip". Just pretend that it's very brief appearance is turbo lag and all of a sudden it becomes a feature not an issue.

Um bro. How are you managing 30 MPG in city? What is your city driving like.. Because my city driving is equal to 25 MPG. Unless your numbers are imperial?? dumb american measurements. why can't they just keep up with the rest of the world.

Ehhh, I can't even compare it to turbo lag. You had nothing and then it hit until it fell off.


This is like shitty VTEC. Some, none, crescendo of power.


It IS noticeable, but you learn to drive around it.

In 5 years that I've been driving this car the torque dip has never been an issue but I've never tracked the car so maybe... I did get a stage 1 tune a while back that almost completely eliminated it and I've noticed it a few times but again it's not a factor (for me). The difference in mpg's between the two cars is pretty small and I bet in real world use is even smaller unless you drive hard frequently and have a heavy foot then this car falls off pretty quickly. When I had a long daily commute and when I do mostly hwy driving it's easy to get 32+ mpg with this car. The handling is spot on and the car is easier to drive than the shorter wheelbase Miata, it also rides better over rough pavement due to the slightly longer wheelbase. Not much but it's there. I don't know what the stats are but I bet this car is also safer in a potentially catastrophic accident than the smaller topless car.

I find it pretty easy to run 26-28mpg around town but I'm not a stop light dragster kind of guy, 30 is a stretch unless I'm on the open road.

I'm not, those were the one's below 30MPG

Apologies for my confusion then, I just read it like you were implying most of your tanks are at 30+ with the inclusion of city.

I think this is the key right here. Track exposes your skill level as a driver when it comes to the torque dip. The minute you hit that at corner exit, you know you need to improve. It's a real eye opener, but fortunately unrelated to real world driving.

No worries. About 20% of each tank is used in what falls into "city driving" but it more like "rural town driving", slow speeds, stop at lights, occasionally stopped by trains and the random cow, deer, or turkey. I do occasionally go into the "big city" (Atlanta) and see a drop accordingly. Even in my worst tank though I've not gone below 27, and that one involved all day city driving and sitting in traffic jams. Of course, the car uses very little fuel just idling, it's that 5 to 35MPH stop and go that kills it for you.

This is where I will agree that the torque dip does make a difference. If you are trying to shave a hundredth of a second off your lap time or break the world drag race time for a stock FR/BRZ/86 then yep the dip will have an effect. During daily driving that 10% drop for a fraction of a second when rowing through the gears really should not have any impact. There are 6 gears available there is no reason why that vey brief drop in torque should slow you down on the streets.

But the masses will be there to complain when they think that torque dip is slowing them down on the streets trying to drag race EK9 Civics, when in reality it's their brain.

And thus, the stigma lives on, proud and strong.

Torque dip is zero issue at the track, you're above 4500rpm all the time.
For me, it hasn't been an issue on the street either. But then I drive pretty normally on the street. You do have to keep the revs up if you need to accelerate.
No big deal...

what? I thought in a car with a 2.0L high revving engine with 151lb/ft of torque...I could accelerate in 4th gear faster than a corvette! Because that's normal driving....

But that damn torque dip...….

http://i55.tinypic.com/2wowsn6.jpg

6, 6000.... same difference. This forum really sucks, sometimes.

Just drop twenty three gears and floor it, bro.