@KAuss, I transferred your posts to a decision matrix.

https://s15-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bi...b722566b914d78

From the variables you're considering, fuel economy repeats most often. You're also concerned about a possible 86 v.2.0 appearing in a couple of years, so maybe doing some minor repairs on the X-Runner and waiting it out is a reasonable alternative.

Meanwhile, consider a used Prius with an HOV sticker to save gas and time (tint the windows so people won't mock you but it's the Bay Area so could be seen as virtuous) and sell, save, or store the X-R for pleasure or utility. Then sell the Prius should a new version 86 appear.

If you're thinking of track days, many tracks no longer allow roadsters without SCCA approved rollover protection, a strike against the MX without a bar/cage/hardtop.

Others mentioned how to drive around the torque dip on track by keeping the revs up and it works. It'll also eventually teach you momentum driving, a valuable skill in a relatively underpowered car that compensates somewhat at corner exit while you finesse the car at corner entry and through technical bits.

On the street, a TRD CAI helped throttle response and smoothed out the dip on my FR-S combined with a Perrin catback. Expensive though, and the TRD CAI may no longer be available for '17s+, so try a TRD air filter first.

Or forget the whole thing for now. New car sales have hit the wall this year so expect generous cash incentives closer to model year changeover. Already in my area, some 86 TRD's are listed for $30K, about $4K below MSRP.

Even in CA you can get high flow cats, tune it and get rid of a lot of the dip. That Catback is going to be useless because if the noise regs over there save your money.

I'd start looking at the dealership you're getting the cars from, thier rep, and the warranty reputation and history of subie vs Mazda. Stop looking at the cars since you're on the fence start looking big picture.

To me, FRS is more stylish, and I like to drive a slow car fast.
Plus, there are a lot of parts to mod and I can characterize my car.

Been gone for a few, but points taken in so far is that I really should reserve the dip to owners, but in my short stint of driving semi hard, what I mean to say was that there was this lack of "push" from throttle response. I mean I think I might have been a bit strong on how much of a burden it is. I think it's more proper to say that at lower speeds during street driving, the MX-5 will feel more on edge compared to the BRZ.

Other have said that the BRZ feels best 10/10. While the MX-5 can be X/10 and it always feels like 10/10. That's what the dip affects for my personal experience. If I were to get a BRZ, I would probably live with the car and not worry about it. However, with my time at the MX-5 forums, the people there have said that if I do live this way, then I'll always think in the back of my mind about the "what if..." They're right. Just like how I'd think about what if I had more practicality. Though I've never dreamt of a car with the compromised practicality for a better drive feel like a BRZ. Yet I've dreamed of driving a car like a Miata. Where you sacrifice everything for drive feel. I assume for me to do this, I'd probably have to strip the BRZ a bit to lower the weight to match.

I just got a quote back form the dealer I test drove the car at on the car I test drove. When I was there, the salesperson told me he can sell invoice at 29K for a sticker of around 31K. It was a Limited with Package 1 and PP. I told him I don't care much for package 1, and he would be willing to order. However, the wait can be quite long. He also said that without Package 1, I can expect to pay maybe 800 less. So the quote I got today from them was for $27,7xx. Thinking this might be possible to order a new 19 for $27,000 before TTS.

I think this is a good deal, but it's literally the exact same deal as I would get from the MX-5. Around 4K off MSRP. Right now, I think after listening to both forums, unless the BRZ can reach 26K to make it enticing enough (fat chance) I think the MX-5 has a better shot at being bought. For a few reasons.

- MX-5 isn't a car you can simply make up your mind one day to buy. Circumstances has to be perfect, and you must change your lifestyle to suit it. I'm in that sort of a crossroads now where I can afford the sacrifices to own a car I've dreamed about owning / driving.

- BRZ is a car where I can get that comes close in a few ways, and match the MX-5 in others that does not require a perfect circumstance to own. The BRZ is simply an easier fit to most people's lives. So there is no urgency to own this car as much as the MX-5.

- BRZ insurance might be higher than MX-5 on top of added fuel cost. These year over year expenses will add to the overall sticker of the price.

- Utility can be rented, or borrowed, while enhanced driving experiences can't. Most places won't have MX-5s for rent, let alone a stick.

- BRZ seems a lot more likely to be a money pit. One person have said in the MX-5 forum that the feeling of owning the MX-5 vs. a twin car is that you simply want to drive the MX-5. I actually agree with this. There isn't much I'd need to change on the MX-5 to enjoy it. With the twin cars, you are always looking at ways to enhance it. So the endless itch to mod the car is always going to be there. This is not a bad thing, if I was given the car, and my entire paycheck goes to modifying the car. However, as a full grown adult who has to pay for their own car, and life expenses, I will have to keep fighting the urge to mod to be responsible. In fact, I was already looking up spoiler replacements because I didn't like the stock BRZ one. This on top of the audio system upgrades I will do, which already wipes out any $ advantage from the BRZ price. The aftermarket choices for the twins is just way too strong. That in itself is a wonderful thing, but for someone who wants a move in ready house, a fixer upper is not the same.

- This last one is no knock on the forum, but I think age wise, I'm probably closer to the MX-5 group than the FT86 group. Though I think I'd still fit in being 37, I just think the average BRZ / 86 owner is quite a bit younger than myself. I see this vehicle draws a very cultured following of "heavy modding" since the passion from the younger group reminds me of my friends and I during the 90s when F&F wasn't even a thing yet. I don't think I live in that era anymore myself, and would feel out of place from a modder's mindset. This is due to the responsibilities I have as mentioned at first. Making me feel like owning a near stock BRZ will actually ostracize me from most FT86 circles. Where as owning a MX-5 nearly stock will not. MX-5 owners mod too, but you'll find a large contingent of MX-5 owners with stock vehicles that will probably not mod them much beyond simple bolt ons. I just fit in more with that crowd in the stage of my life I'm in right now.

- Last one would be that I heavily believe whatever next gen might bring for the FT86 will be a far more significant jump than say the NE MX-5. I think that would be the car that'll shoot for "best overall sports car period." Reason why I say this is because this platform has already market researched for both brands enough to give them the recipe for success. It's just a matter of them making it now.

With all that said, if a $26K price is agreed upon, that'll free me up on maybe enough mod money to wipe a lot of what I just said away. Still, if I can get just the Android Auto retrofit worked in to my current quote on the MX-5, I think that might be the heavy punch to knock this debate out.

Nothing against the BRZ, I was thoroughly surprised how much I liked the BRZ after hyping myself up so much on the MX-5 for over a decade. I "will" miss the practicality of the BRZ over a MX-5, but I think the whole time I was seeking if I rather have a more driver oriented experience, or a car that gives me 80% of that feel, and 50% more practicality. I think I have to pick the other option as I'm able to, or else I might not get a chance to later in life.

Much of this is subjective but I will adres a couple of the points in no particular order or semblance of logic.


1 We suck at convincing people to buy these cars. I hate to break out a cliché but to use the words of many on here "you either get the car or not"


2 The torque dip is meaningless for day to day driving and has nothing to do with the punch when you take off the line. If looking for a rush from flooring it you will be disappointed. No matter what the guys on the Miata forum say you will not get any better from the MX. You need to go to a whole different platform for that.


3 Both are sports cars not GT, muscle or pony cars. Don't expect them to be anything different.


4 You are used to the low end torque of a truck. No amount of mods to either of these cars will match that. None.


5 The "next gen" will either be very much the same as the current or very very different. It will not be the same only better. Take that as good or bad but if they make half the changes people scream for then it will be bigger, heavier and much more costly which means it will no longer be a competitor in the sports car class (especially the Miata) but will have to fight it out with the Mustangs and Camaros of the world. This will open up new doors and close many old ones.

Torquedip is only a issue if you don't shift. :iono: You need to get into the habbit of 4k rpm = where the power just starts to come out in this car.

To be honest, ask someone to let you drive the 86 on Mt. Hamilton just east of san jose. @humfrz knows :D

That's a myth, by the way. A good percentage of the folks you are exchanging notes with right now are older than you. When I went to the First86 event in Long Beach when the car was released at least half, if not 2/3rds of that initial buyer's group was older than you.

This reminds me of when I let people who drive "stick" have a go in my FR-S. They say well I heard it has no power. I then wait to see how they shift and it is always the same... they shift very early at around 3-4k range. I then go you need to wait to shift at a much higher RPM to really use the engine. It seems to many people are like this and are use to low revving engines. Once they shift a bit higher, they are like "Woah" this thing is fast.

I laugh and say do you want drive it for a min. They get in the passenger seat and I do a 360 tail whip around from a dead stop (not kidding, was slightly raining too...) and proceed to plow down the road red line shifting it the whole way and they of course love every second of it and are kissing the ground by the time they get out. :lol:

I'm like see, you just got to shift it like you just stole it and it will be faster then you want to go.

Docdoc

I was just in the same position deciding between these 2 cars. I decided to buy a used frs. But if I had the option to buy one of the new rf's with the updated power, I would definitely go for it. If you are looking for the best driver's car for the money, that car is tough to beat. Both models before the refresh are a lot closer in my opinion and it comes down to practicality vs convertible. For a new car, the miata is the better buy at this point in my opinion. However, if you go used, you can pick up an 86 for a lot less and have a lot of money leftover for mods. Honestly both cars are amazing and both will make you happy. The torque dip for me is almost unnoticeable and shouldn't be a factor. Pick the car that speaks to you and keeps you up at night.

I don't know why buying a car is so complicated.
Go to a dealership and have a test drive. Choose the one you like best.
These are low power high RPM car, you won't get torque until 4000+ RPM.
Even when I get older in the future, I will be still modding car cus I consider this passion as a life accomplishment. I wouldn't care whether i belong in the young group or old group.

Coming from a boosted car that had some lag, I would have never known there was a torque dip "issue" in this car had the forum not pointed it out lol.

I still don't think it's an issue.

High Flow Filter/Snorkel Mod and a Cat Back will give you a lot more throttle response. But if you're looking for low end grunt this is not the car for you. You really have to rev this engine out to hustle.

Basically you need to readjust your idea of what rev range to keep the engine in to move briskly. Puttering around town you can still short shift and drive conservatively to get the most out of your fuel economy. In that scenario the torque dip isn't an issue. When you're really pushing it you're in the power band and near the redline is where the car comes alive. In this scenario you're never in the torque dip either.

The only time I truly feel it is when you're cruising at low engine speeds and decide to go WOT, the sweep through the torque dip is brutal. You need to down shift, can't be a lazy driver with this car.

Personally I don't fit comfortably in the miata and the heavy roll is annoying as hell. It may be gripping just as well but the tautness of the twins chassis/suspension setup inspires a type of confidence you don't immediately get with the Miata. This is even better in the face lifted models versus the pre face lift in terms of suspension compliance.

The torque dip is something I haven't really felt. I mean, I'm either puttering at RPMS below the dip, or I'm driving hard above the dip. If I want to pass, I downshift. If I don't want to have to downshift, I should get another car. The Miata will still need to downshift for a good pass. If I want to take off fast from a stop, I'm revving to above the torque dip anyway.

Also the Miata is too small and lacks versatility. I'm 100% happy with never having gotten a Miata, and I've almost done it several times. First time I looked at a Miata was when I was 16. Now I'm 41.

I have underwear that is older than him!