Tire recommendation for wet track work?
 

For the super-experienced track guys - any guidance you can offer on a tire choice to run on the track in wet conditions?

Maybe an 'unlimited' option and one with a 200TW or higher regulation?

Unlimited: Hooser H20.

Hoosier H20.

Depends on "how wet". 200TW option... VR1 followed by RE11

Thanks, guys!


Out of curiosity, how would you compare the VR-1 to the RS-4 and AD08R in completely dry conditions?

Faster

Do they wear well? The RS-4 seem to allow tons of heat cycles. Are the VR-1 like that too? Hopefully the 255/40R17 will be offered in their S2 compound for next season.


It's sounding like I could just move from RS4 to VR-1 and cover both my dry and wet weather needs - at least when new.


I also stumbled across the RC-1 when reading about the VR-1. I imagine these are these even quicker in the dry - but don't see a 245 or 255/40R17 fitment :(

You're not going to heat cycle tires if it's soaking wet with puddles.

Most guys need to work on car control and getting out there without rains will teach you a lot.

I run the AD08R and it's a good balance of wet/dry which is important if you drive to the track with rain conditions. Good overall tire.

I just love wet tracks. Nobody out, easy on brakes and tires and BIGGGGGGG slip angles plus forces you to use a different line in some corners

Sorry - I meant as a dry weather tire.


You've said the VR-1 is a faster tire than the RS4 and AD08R, so I'm thinking I will just buy VR-1's and be done with it for both wet and dry conditions.


I'll keep a set of new VR-1s mounted for the rain and burn off my RS4s as dry weather tires at the start of next season. Then I will make the VR-1 rains my dry weather tire and buy another set to mount up for use as wets.

Keep in mind the comparison assumes the car is optimized to each car.

The VR1 does heat cycle, but at abotu the same pace as RS4. The AD08R cycles slower than both the VR1 and RS4, and is faster at the end of each tire's lives.

Based on my experiences this year, RE71R!

At Palmer in the pouring rain on RE71Rs, I caught and passed a much faster and well-driven T60 (I'm in slower T40 class) Miata who was on Hoosier H2Os. At Watkins Glen in the pouring rain, I caught a faster T50 Miata on Hoosier H20s driven by the best driver in the club (I've been out with him and he's certainly way better, faster, and more consistent than I am).
My car's softish near-stock setup (Swift BRZ Sport lowering springs and Raceseng camber plates) was probably a slight advantage, but I do think the RE71R is at least comparable to the H2O in the wet...

Dan,

I'm confident that driver was simply not comfortable in the conditions. A Hoosier H20 in the rain would feel almost like a RE71R in the dry.

I hope that response didn't rain on anyone's parade. :lol:

The age of Hoosier H2Os matters as well. If they are greater than 3-4 years old it will feel like driving on ice and lap times will be poor.

Neither of these drivers lacks experience in the rain and neither was *****-footing around. I do have to think it is likely that their tires were not at 100%, but they were getting around better than the vast majority.

Anyway, at the very least I'd put RE71R head and shoulders above any other street tire for grip at the track in the rain.

RE71R in the dry is of course going to have tons more grip than H2O in the pouring rain...

Hyperbole to make a point, but the point still stands.

To your and Totemo's point - Hoosier's tend to age as well as cottage cheese.

I just found this in the COMSSC forums regarding a proposal to add 2 points to the RE71R for 2019:
in the deep wet at Watkins Glen, it was outperforming Hoosier Wets in portions of the track with deep standing water.
Hey, that was me :P

https://www.comscc.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5822

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

The fact of the matter is that you were "doing it better" than he was. If you came in during that session and swapped to new H20s you would have gone faster and not in an insignificant way.

HA! No thanks...

If you have any information or data on the wet performance of these tires, feel free to share it.

I'll share what I have, which is of course anecdotal, but it's something...

At Watkins Glen, conditions on day 1 were inundated with standing water at several spots. T50 Miata was the fastest other car I came across in practice, I was gathering him up at about 0.5 second per lap when we both came in. He remarked his semi-amazement that I was doing it on RE71Rs vs. his H2Os. I was doing ~2:35 lap times in those conditions.
Next day in the dry time trial I did a 2:18.6 on the same RE71Rs vs. his 2:17.4 on Hoosier R7s.
T50 Miata power/weight ~16.5 lb/hp
T40 BRZ power/weight ~14:1 lb/hp

Faster maybe, but I don't know about "significantly"...
T50 Miata pilot is regarded by most, including myself, as the best driver in the club by some margin. I have been out with him before (in the dry in his old E36 M3) at WGI to figure out how he was going so damn fast and to get some ideas, basically he just hits the same marks at the absolute limit every single lap and doesn't screw up, ever. Whereas my laps are random and chaotic, no two alike, all leaving something on the table somewhere and going too far over the limit elsewhere.

My impression of my stockish BRZ on RE71Rs in wet with standing water is that after you lose grip you can just hang on for a bit and it will eventually come back without spitting you off the track. When the back comes out, the car doesn't just swap ends, you can hang it out for a while and it will come back.

His setup is no doubt stiffer and probably more oversteery, and also the Miata has a more rearward c.g. on a shorter wheelbase so probably not as forgiving in standing water conditions.

In the end I think I had a car advantage for the inundated/standing water conditions. While I don't necessarily think I had an inherent *tire* advantage, neither do I think I had much if any of a tire *disadvantage*, for those conditions.

My 0.02!

Like I said, I can't understand it for you.

If you're going to suggest that a 200tw street tire is going to out-perform a Hoosier H20, especially in the heavy rain, then the burden of proof is on you to defend such ridiculousness.

And ridiculous it is.

Again, no thanks on that anyway :P

I never expected to be running with faster, better-driven cars on H2Os in the pouring rain with me on RE71Rs, but then it happened...

I'm not saying that this means RE71Rs are better or faster in the rain all else equal, but I will say that whatever gap there is seems to me to be a LOT smaller than I would have expected, based on my on-track experiences in the rain this year.

H2O may well be significanly faster in most if not all wet conditions, all else equal, but you declaring it as a fact without any evidence (even anecdotal) doesn't mean much to me...

*Anyway*, at the very least I highly recommend RE71R for wet track work in the 200TW street tire category...

PS4S. Hands down

I second the Michelin PS4S for the 200tw; also, run it in 215/45/17 size.

The ultimate answer depends on the depth of the water and the temperature. There is a reason some professional race series have more than one type of rain tire available. Also, suspension setup may play a key role here. Professional racers may change the suspension settings significantly for a wet race. A near stock suspension setup may do quite well in heavy rain. Tread depth plays a BIG factor in really heavy rain. Hoosier H20 starts with 8/32" tread, and if worn will be at a disadvantage when it gets really wet. The Hoosier H20 may also not be very sticky in really cold rain (I don't know the details of the compound). These factors may be why a Bridgestone RE71R could be quicker than a Hoosier H20 on a particular day.

For newer track drivers (or ones on a budget) your daily driver tire is a good option for really wet weather. I ran the stock Michelin Primacy HP tires on stock wheels in real heavy, cold rain at the track and was one of the fastest cars on the track (only a few even went on the track). I easily passed a Chump car that had been passing me all day – I was glad to see when I got back into the pits that the team had drilled significant holes in the floor of that car since the windshield was its only glass. Overheating the tires was not a problem and the tread depth and narrow width was to my advantage. I plan to go back to the track this spring, with my BF Goodrich G-Force Rival for the dry and damp track and my daily Yokohama Advan Sport V105 for really wet conditions. The Rivals are old and probably not too sticky any more from lack of use, but inexpensive as I already own them and they have significant tread left. The Yoko's may be replaced with some Michelin PS4S's before I go as the Yoko's are near the end of their life.

According to Mr. Hollis, either the Michelin PS4S or the Contiental ExtremeContactSport. Article:
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...laren-mp4-12c/

Video:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuxkXbDGkS8[/ame]

Although there is no direct comparison, he recommended these over the RE-71R's. That seems to make sense since both of these tires have more circumferential groves (4 on each tire) than the RE71's (only 2) which allows more water evacuation.

I personally haven't tested either, but I'm thinking about picking up a set of the conti's for wet track duty.

I will say, if the track is only damp/wet with no standing puddles and you're in a drying condition, that the RE71's will probably be a lot faster just due to their compound. But for a truly wet track, I'll take the extra groves for water evacuation.

Pro teams will change suspension settings significantly for a wet race. They may change the total lateral load transfer distribution by quite a bit, in addition to just softening the car.

- Andrew