Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   NO LSD??????? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131434)

cjd 11-18-2018 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmailrs (Post 3156218)
Cool how rwd is a conpletely different world compared to fwd .
Its kinda sucks to drive this car and once you think you get it you realize that the full off isnt fully off and now your not sure if its the car that fixed you or its just you as a driver.
Well that to be seen soon ;)
I hate computers @CARS!!


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yes, FWD is completely different from RWD, but I'm not sure how much different for any of the stuff we're talking about here.



As for sucking...Not really? Between pedal dance or just plain 3 second off, there's very little happening to 'correct' - one or the other is likely to work better for you, and except for hard-core drifting should be all you need.


If you really want everything (including ABS) off, find yourself an 86nanny with the ABS feature.


FWIW, I was locking up the wheel with ABS off where I was hitting ice mode with just pedal dance (not really surprising, it's reacting to what is effectively complete lack of traction in one wheel) and had no particular troubles with just the 3 second press in the same spot.


The 'interference' here is still significantly less obvious than the 17+ 'Track mode' which let me do some pretty crazy stuff, but still made itself very obvious.


YMMV.

danielmailrs 11-18-2018 05:47 PM
The abs can be turned off by taking out its fuse?
Tbh the abs is the last nanny that bothers me..
I barely gets it on -i learn how to drive the car without getting into the abs .

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TorontoNat 11-18-2018 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmailrs (Post 3156218)
Cool how rwd is a conpletely different world compared to fwd .
Its kinda sucks to drive this car and once you think you get it you realize that the full off isnt fully off and now your not sure if its the car that fixed you or its just you as a driver.
Well that to be seen soon ;)
I hate computers @CARS!!


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
lol if your not sure... it was the computer

Roadcone 11-18-2018 11:02 PM
Tldr.

Torsen lsd. If one side unlocks entirely it acts like an open diff.

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wparsons 11-19-2018 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramaroon (Post 3156188)
Just different strokes. It's personal for me. That thing raises my blood pressure every time it pulls throttle because of a little lateral acceleration.


The way it intervenes with the long press is more subtle. I wouldn't mind the e-diff if there was a way to enable/disable it on the fly. I might even choose to use it.

Again, with the long press I've never had it pull throttle either. I've done full 360's, drifted all the way around a skidpad (and then done a 360), etc.

Ultramaroon 11-19-2018 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons (Post 3156521)
Again, with the long press I've never had it pull throttle either. I've done full 360's, drifted all the way around a skidpad (and then done a 360), etc.
I'll have to log in order to verify but at higher speeds, I could swear it doesn't let the driver get crazy.

Spuds 11-19-2018 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramaroon (Post 3156543)
I'll have to log in order to verify but at higher speeds, I could swear it doesn't let the driver get crazy.
Well, that's just the engine being wimpy.

JK. I have heard secondhand of it turning back on if you get too crazy with the long button press, but while things are off, they are off.

DarkPira7e 11-19-2018 06:01 PM
For what it's worth, I can spin/slide at a mild angle at 45+MPH without interference in several inches of snow.

Ultramaroon 11-19-2018 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds (Post 3156552)
Well, that's just the engine being wimpy.
lol


I need to either prove it or admit that I'm hallucinating.

CSG Mike 11-19-2018 07:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wparsons (Post 3156132)
I've never had VSC intervene after a long press of the TC button, I've had the car sliding in different kinds of conditions.
It only intervenes if you do something where it thinks you're out of control.

Sliding =/= out of control, especially with an experienced driver!

Kodename47 11-19-2018 08:42 PM
I'll also add here that I don't believe that the light flashing means that it's interfering but just detecting slip. On my car it flashes but I know it's not intervening if I have done the long button push. I have also had mine on a skid pan and not needed anything more to pull off drifts, but the instructor had a car that sometimes needed pedal dance or the VSC/TCS would occasionally restore.

Legend@wheels 11-20-2018 12:26 AM
Guys
The light that came on the other day.
Is it just the vsc intervention?or anything else(on long press)

Edit:
Have found that one:

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1f326e3f34.jpg
In that case:when this light is flashing its possibility of trc or vsc intervention.
I think trc cant be really felt on the long press mode ,only the vsc and very lightly.
At the other day i didnt feel like the car try to correct me as i only saw that light flashes but the car keept on its drift way-maybe its just an indicator for the car to pronounce=one of the wheels is loosing contact with the surface.
Might be cool to check that out with one wheel on the air and see how it reacts.

Stang70Fastback 11-20-2018 02:33 AM
I'm convinced that different years have different logic. And I'm no talking about pre/post refresh vehicles. I swear every time I get into an argument with someone who had issues with traction/stability control intervening even with the "3 second hold," they always seem to own a 13/14. In 4+ years of ownership with this car (a 15), I've NEVER had it ever cut throttle no matter how wild things get. Odd...

Roadcone 11-20-2018 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback (Post 3156697)
I'm convinced that different years have different logic. And I'm no talking about pre/post refresh vehicles. I swear every time I get into an argument with someone who had issues with traction/stability control intervening even with the "3 second hold," they always seem to own a 13/14. In 4+ years of ownership with this car (a 15), I've NEVER had it ever cut throttle no matter how wild things get. Odd...
I have the o.g. 86 nanny that just does the 3 second hold at start up. The ONLY time it does anything is when ediff engages. I'm pretty sure 95% of the others complaining just can't drive

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Spuds 11-20-2018 03:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stang70Fastback (Post 3156697)
I'm convinced that different years have different logic. And I'm no talking about pre/post refresh vehicles. I swear every time I get into an argument with someone who had issues with traction/stability control intervening even with the "3 second hold," they always seem to own a 13/14. In 4+ years of ownership with this car (a 15), I've NEVER had it ever cut throttle no matter how wild things get. Odd...
2013 and never had it reduce throttle in "off" mode. It definitely does in ON and VSC sport, and I have felt the ediff working in all 3 modes. If you don't know what the ediff is doing maybe it feels like VSC is on and doing something? It does suck a bit of energy.

Legend@wheels 11-20-2018 03:48 AM
seriously in my opinion i think all that pedal dance method is total bullshit-its just another way to turn off the lights like the 3sec does
ive just tried it out and it feels the same as the 3sec press.
also same lights flashes on the dash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadcone (Post 3156698)
I have the o.g. 86 nanny that just does the 3 second hold at start up. The ONLY time it does anything is when ediff engages. I'm pretty sure 95% of the others complaining just can't drive

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it doesnt matter how bad driver you are -OFF should means OFF .
so if its off even if your the worst driver in the world the nannies arent supposed to do anything otherwise if anyone is complaining so its the car to blame OR the car supposed to be like that -no 100% off at all.
i think the light that came on (VSC/TRC nanny)it was just the Ediff intervening and nothing else.
i dont think anything except of the ediff is working on 3sec button ,and when it does (The car sliding light on the dash like posted above)flashes. and not because anything else is intervening.

churchx 11-20-2018 07:00 AM
Legend@wheels: if you never brake in way that EBD may interfer in unwished manner, or never hop wheels in air for e-diff to engage, of course, sure, 3sec TRC off will do just fine for you. But it's not as if that will never be issue for anybody else in all possible occasions too. After all, you can find thread about pedal dance on this forum, and read for whom and at which track driving scenarios pedal dance was useful to fix some issues/limitations felt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike
- I tried trail braking mid-turn with the "normal" electronic aids off, but without the pedal dance. This resulted in a spin; the car literally locked up the rear brakes. My speculation is that the car recognized the fronts locking up, and put additional force on the rear brakes. The problem here, is that I had purposely put a much lower friction pad in the back, so it kept sending more and more brake pressure to the back, until it just locked. Once it locked, it stayed locked, even though I was not stepping on the brakes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike
This past weekend at WSIR and the 2nd FT86CUP event, we did some additional Brake Dance testing.
Quick and dirty:
Without the brake dance, if you upset the car's computers enough, it will still re-engage traction and stability control. This specifically involves enough of a loss of traction that you're getting what the ECU believe to be uncontrolled wheelspin, the equivalent of lifting a rear wheel. The slip light will turn solid, and the traction/stability lights will turn off. After the "uncontrolled wheel spin" is eliminated, the slip light will turn off, and the traction/stability lights will turn back on (indicating that the systems are again "disabled")
This was most apparent through Turn 8 of WSIR, which is an ultra high speed, extremely bumpy sweeper. This was replicated lap after lap. The stability control engaging at 110+MPH was rather... scary. There were some 100+MPH slides induced BY THE COMPUTER.
Results were independently reproduced by @D1cker in his own car; Derek is the fastest non shop-sponsored FR-S/BRZ driver in SoCal.
You can also experience this by going through a driveway where you lift a rear wheel from lack of droop. Even with traction/stability off, the ECU will still engage traction/stability, and brake the wheel to allow the wheel in contact with the ground to put some power down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike
Of note:
I was able to replicate the "slip light turning solid when going over big bumps or left foot braking" this weekend while canyoning when not using the pedal dance.
It's also typically accompanied with a CEL. The CEL is soft and goes away after a while.
@D1cker
Different people drive on different roads, different tracks and with different skills and in different manner. Surely for some pedaldance will never be needed, but also some may find it handy.

Legend@wheels 11-20-2018 09:28 AM
Great info thx

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cjd 11-20-2018 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend@wheels (Post 3156707)
seriously in my opinion i think all that pedal dance method is total bullshit-its just another way to turn off the lights like the 3sec does
ive just tried it out and it feels the same as the 3sec press.
also same lights flashes on the dash.



it doesnt matter how bad driver you are -OFF should means OFF .
so if its off even if your the worst driver in the world the nannies arent supposed to do anything otherwise if anyone is complaining so its the car to blame OR the car supposed to be like that -no 100% off at all.
i think the light that came on (VSC/TRC nanny)it was just the Ediff intervening and nothing else.
i dont think anything except of the ediff is working on 3sec button ,and when it does (The car sliding light on the dash like posted above)flashes. and not because anything else is intervening.
Definitely different. There are scenarios where its obvious (trail braking? Left foot braking? Forget details). And in my direct experience, ice mode (PD) or not(3sec) consistently.

And, off is off. Till you hit 1.5g I think? Or one of the many other scenarios where the car uses brakes to try to help you out. Not all the bits are defined as traction control, which is the fuzzy area. And is why PD behaves differently.

Legend@wheels 11-20-2018 09:51 AM
Might be..
Never been to those conditions.
As a conclusion pd leaves you with only abs on? On all the conditions/surfaces

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churchx 11-20-2018 10:28 AM
AFAIK so.
Keep in mind, that not always that is wished (eg. my long blurb of track vs daily driving).

IIRC origin of pedal dance (which also works similar way on some other cars, (Lexus/Toyota other cars too IIRC?)) is for it to be some manufacturer diagnostic/maintenance mode to be used on dyno tests or something alike. Hence obscure procedure to enable it and not documented in manual (liability reasons?), as it never was intended to be officially used by customers.

Tokay444 11-20-2018 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmailrs (Post 3156157)
Well as long as the pedal dance finish the nannies shift its all good.
Dont want any computer to touch and help my driving !

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Then just pull the fuse man. You'll do great.

Tokay444 11-20-2018 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielmailrs (Post 3156218)
Cool how rwd is a conpletely different world compared to fwd .
Its kinda sucks to drive this car and once you think you get it you realize that the full off isnt fully off and now your not sure if its the car that fixed you or its just you as a driver.
Well that to be seen soon ;)
I hate computers @CARS!!


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
IKR? It's almost like they're complete opposites of each other.

Spuds 11-20-2018 11:16 PM
New theory from recent experience: In long press mode, the reason people think that TC/VSC is still working is actually because of hitting the torque dip just as the slide is initiated. You had torque, then there is less torque as soon as rear wheel speed increases, whether due to slide or acceleration or both.

Ultramaroon 11-20-2018 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds (Post 3156996)
New theory from recent experience: In long press mode, the reason people think that TC/VSC is still working is actually because of hitting the torque dip just as the slide is initiated. You had torque, then there is less torque as soon as rear wheel speed increases, whether due to slide or acceleration or both.
I'm at 5K.

Ultramaroon 11-20-2018 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3156753)
AFAIK so.
Keep in mind, that not always that is wished (eg. my long blurb of track vs daily driving).

IIRC origin of pedal dance (which also works similar way on some other cars, (Lexus/Toyota other cars too IIRC?)) is for it to be some manufacturer diagnostic/maintenance mode to be used on dyno tests or something alike. Hence obscure procedure to enable it and not documented in manual (liability reasons?), as it never was intended to be officially used by customers.
It's in the precautions section of the service manual. Only an elite group of the most safety-conscious owners will ever learn about it.


https://i.imgur.com/GF3eDSd.jpg

churchx 11-21-2018 12:22 AM
Ultramaroon: "inspection mode", and in repair manual? I wonder for repairing what and how it can be used? :/

Ultramaroon 11-21-2018 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3157013)
Ultramaroon: "inspection mode", and in repair manual? I wonder for repairing what and how it can be used? :/
Dude, it's for exactly what you said. I'm not arguing anything, just showing you the cool stuff.

Spuds 11-21-2018 12:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultramaroon (Post 3156999)
I'm at 5K.
:iono:

Ultramaroon 11-21-2018 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds (Post 3157015)
:iono:
I get what you're saying, though. Been there done that. Remember, I'm not above being full of shit. Been there done that too. Plenty :D

Legend@wheels 11-21-2018 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokay444 (Post 3156884)
IKR? It's almost like they're complete opposites of each other.
Yeah definitely

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Legend@wheels 11-21-2018 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spuds (Post 3156996)
New theory from recent experience: In long press mode, the reason people think that TC/VSC is still working is actually because of hitting the torque dip just as the slide is initiated. You had torque, then there is less torque as soon as rear wheel speed increases, whether due to slide or acceleration or both.
And the light on the dash was flashing ? When it was intervening

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churchx 11-21-2018 01:00 AM
Ultramaroon: i didn't try to argue, it was a question, as i somehow fail to imagine procedure of fixing or replacing what can involve need to switch off nannies :/

Ultramaroon 11-21-2018 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3157025)
Ultramaroon: i didn't try to argue, it was a question, as i somehow fail to imagine procedure of fixing or replacing what can involve need to switch off nannies :/
Oh! :bonk:


It's for safety on rollers just like you said - dyno, speedo calibration, ... whatnot.

churchx 11-21-2018 01:28 AM
Moving even further into offtopic debris :)
Speedo calibration procedure? I'd be very interested in that. Always hated speedo lying by reporting higher on modern cars and would prefer if there was a way to adjust it to show readings closer to real/gps readings. Didn't bothered searching nfo on that as i always thought that it might be set in hardware or somewhere obscured in firmware of eg. some circuitry boards in dash, that no mere mortals can adjust. By chance maybe you stumbled upon it in some manuals?

Ultramaroon 11-21-2018 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3157033)
By chance maybe you stumbled upon it in some manuals?
I don't think it's easily altered. Only through some sensor trickery can I think of a practical way to change the speed calculation. The wheel speed sensors feed directly into the ABS unit.

churchx 11-21-2018 02:40 AM
Ultramaroon: no .. changing not readings of sensors, but just display of them. For example with button press on cars of some DMs you can switch between miles and km-s. Wheel speed sensors still provide same input. Now if only there been some easy enough (not requiring special tooling/soldering/highly specialized firmware programming solitions for dash circuitry and such) procedure to adjust .. hence i hoped you noticed in some docs/manuals info about it, when mentioned speedo calibration in relation to PD. I wonder if in ECU tune there might be something regarding imperial or metric measurements, and if it cannot be (ab)used in some way for that goal. Or some "calibration" setting/ratio/number in techstream. Something alike.

Ultramaroon 11-21-2018 03:11 AM
I haven't come across anything of the sort.

Spuds 11-21-2018 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend@wheels (Post 3157021)
And the light on the dash was flashing ? When it was intervening

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Well, I'm fairly certain the light will flash when the car thinks you are sliding, whether or not it tries to do anything about it based on my experience of it. I'll definitely be paying more attention to it for a while though to see if I notice anything.

If I were designing the system, I would make the flashing warning light a notification that something is wrong ("DUDE your sliding!"), rather than letting the driver know everything is working as usual. If there was some sort of TC/VSC fault, you would still want that warning to appear, right?

Kodename47 11-21-2018 04:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3157044)
I wonder if in ECU tune there might be something regarding imperial or metric measurements, and if it cannot be (ab)used in some way for that goal.
ECU and dash display feeds are different. I have corrected my ECU speed with EcuTek but the dash remains unchanged. I have had it confirmed that it cannot be corrected with an ECU flash, it would have to be a calibration of the cluster or the output to the cluster.


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