SCCA Time Trials National Program
 

https://www.scca.com/articles/201052...ationwide-tour

Couldn't find a thread specific to this topic, so figured I might as well start one. Seems like there's a lot of potential with this, and the Twins could be pretty competitive in certain classes.

Rules: https://dk1xgl0d43mu1.cloudfront.net...pdf?1534660487

One part I found that needs clarification is that on pg. 14 it notes that SSC cars will be classed in S5, but then on page 35 it has them listed in S6.

Here is a good article on SCCA TT Nationals which just happened.

Really looking forward to the start this. Expect a more customer focused experience a-la TNiA rather than the usual treatment with other programs, SCCA or otherwise.

I'll be involved & attending the Thunderhill Tour for sure. If the schedule works out I'll be at PIR too.

I meant to share that article too. haha

At the very least I'll be spectating at GMR, gonna do my best to drive there though and possibly NCM too.

My region (Texas Region) has had a competitive TT program with a full series and points for the last 3 years. We were initially approached to help establish the national program and are hosting one of the tours next year.

All of the people running the National TT program from Lincoln are at the Runoffs and are currently unavailable to work on the program. The rule set has not been fleshed out and there are still lots of things to figure out before next year.

Our program fills every event we run (70+ cars at our standalone events) and we've even been able to make money for the last 2 years. The key to our success is having very simple rules and classes based off the SCCA autox classes since nearly all of our competitors are from solo (autox).

The national office came and observed our events, asked for our help, and then formed the Time Trial Board from club racers with little regard to accommodating dual use (autox and time trial) cars, especially CAM cars which would have to run with rollcages and fire suppression under the proposed rules.

I'm hoping they figure everything out, but they've got about 5weeks between when they'll start working and the first event. I'm just afraid that they're going to make this too much of a NASA clone and drive away too many people. We're worried that we'll have to drastically change our popular and successful program to meet the National rules (we'll have to for sanctioning and insurance purposes).

We've been sending lots of letters to Topeka, but they seem to have their own ideas about what they want (regardless of what we've learned building a template that could work anywhere).

Yeah, I've been reading some of the discussion around that on... another forum. I agree that there are some troubles with the rules. It's also a challenge when you're someone like me and trying to figure out how to prep a car that can run competitively in this and 86 Cup stock class.

For some of the Street/Sport discussion:

I don't think the tune is quite as much of a killer as some people are making it out to be, since it won't change much without a header (illegal in Sport class anyway). The ability of SSC cars to add more camber with the SPC bolts and RLCAs seems like more of a benefit on track to me than a tune without a header would be on a non-SSC car.

I haven't had time to read other comments anywhere, so this may be worn out, but...

I was pretty excited to be able to run some events for "fun" while using up some of my worn autocross tires. The one set of tires rule makes that a safety hazard without allowing for any kind of rain contingency.

Those two statements are at odds with each other. :lol:

Of all the things, the rules are the miss for me. SCCA just can't have a simple rulebook pretty much ever. It's way too much focus on dumb shit. That said, sorry national office isn't working out. I know that if they proposed what you have for out here on the west coast, they would get laughed off the track. It's already a hard sell as it is, since our local autocross people rarely hit the track.

The whole idea is to get new people to the track. Autox people are the target audience and if you can have rules they already understand and are prepped for all they have to do is sign up.

Our rule book is 13 pages and the first 9 are only for the event organizer.

The NASA people do NASA, the Club Racers do that, and everyone else at the track are either track members or first timers. If you want to get more people to the track you gotta find people who aren't already tracking and if you're trying to start an SCCA version of NASA you have an uphill battle stealing their participants.

In the Southwest Division there are right around 200 licensed club racers. We average nearly 150 drivers at our autox events (and there are 3 other autox clubs locally) with over 600 unique autox participants from the last 2 seasons just in our region, which makes for a much larger participant pool.

I just don't think it makes any sense to add another set of classing rules, especially ones that don't align with either Solo or Club Race. Without comprehensive or shared classing you'll end up with siloed competitors who either don't participate in multiple disciplines or quit one to do another.

No one wants to need a different car/build for autox, time trial, and club racing.

Not all classes are purely NA, tune can be pretty impactful to FI performance, they'd have to re-look at the balance of the rest of the Sport classes.

Sport and Tuner seem decently aligned with Street and Street touring but I haven't gone through it with a fine tooth comb.

IDK I'm thinking of this less like a SCCA Runoff and more like HPDE+ the real tossup is do I feel like sacrificing a set of RE71R to try and be competitive with my STX car or do I use a less competitive tire, and if I decide to not be competitive would I rather see if there's better seat time/dollar option to hit the track next year? No matter what I think I'll hit the track twice next year, but it'll be a toss up between scca at thill or some other group at Laguna. I need to do Sonoma at some point so that'll be the other one.

Not a lot can afford all three seriously, in terms of time and most in money. Building classes to whatever theoretical car can do all three is setup for failure. Most of the cases you have people who do some mix of the two, and if they do all 3 they have another car for the more hardcore road race stuff. At least, that is my observation out here.

Silo'ing already happens and in SFR likely a lot more than what any other parts of the country experience. There is just too much to compete with occurring 24/7/365. There are other factors at play for us, too.

In the SFR SCCA wheelhouse, there is a large divide between Road Race and Autocross. Almost no cross-pollination happens. We basically have a liason to the Road Race board, and that's about all the talking between the two. There are some who do autocross and trackdays, but I don't think I've seen a road race guy come out and run a full season autocross in a while. And same goes for vise-versa. A national ruleset mimicing what you guys already have out there would not work for us.

Isn't the whole point of all the above posts that it's really hard to make a ruleset that unites the existing bodies and niches? There probably isn't a single region in the nation that isn't running at least two rulesets for varying grassroots motorsports.

I mean most people know that the next argument is going to be open ended vs clamped down rulesets and that this new set is both ends of the spectrum to everyone.

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

I'm of the opinion that while this is not perfect, it's a lot better than running Solo rules (which are a mess). It's a good middle ground.

It's a good starting point, a pretty clean slate, if someone comes in and preps to the limits of the class it'll get weird like every other ruleset (Hollis already talking about carbon fiber flywheels and fd swaps lol).

Tone of the event will be everything, the level of competition, expense, safety, etc. I'm not bitter enough to wish unsuccess upon it, it will jive with some and not with others.

I don't know what to think about the tire allowance (1 set per weekend) and seat time, but I should probably just shut my mouth until I experience it, worst case I show up with a used fast set and a slow set not worried about having any tread left on the fast set by the end of the weekend and have a good time.

:burnrubber:

For the 1 set of tires thing, I do care about autocross and it will be my primary focus. These events (and CMP and NCM are close) would be supplemental.

I either face the option of risking running really worn down tires in the rain, skipping sessions or maybe the event, or risking burning down my full tread tires by running them in the dry and then needing to replace those.

...and I don't really see it as changing anything. People will still "need" to bring additional tires in case of some kind of incident.

I don't really have an opinion about the tire thing, as RE's and Rivals will probably not last an entire event if they're worn. I would be bringing stickers or mostly fresh stuff anyway.

I can see both sides. One is that One Lap of America runs an entire week on a single set of tires. If they can do a week, I don't see how we can bitch about a single event.

But I also see your side, where this might actually decrease costs by running worn sets to burn them up, and going to a fresh set if necessary for weather or otherwise.

I hear you.

The difference is that One Lap is a pretty high profile, really competitive event. These are pitched as laid back fun events.

I get the 1 set of tires concept. I think there should be a rain contingency.

The biggest gripe about the current tire ruleset is that within the rules there is wording that makes any ruling based off an opinion - regarding if you're granted another set of tires or not.

What constitutes you being able to replace your "one" set of tires? It's all up to a personal matter not black and white. What if you brought 3/32nd tires to the event and destroyed them? Is that acceptable wear?

What if you had a pig heavy FWD car that simply just punishes the tires? Will it be ruled not in your favor because you "drove too hard"?

What if you hit curbing and caught a gator or something which causes damage to the tire? Is that not in the spirit and thus not granted a change?

I get the whole idea of the tire ruling, but it's simply stupid. This doesn't even go into the potential for rain, and now you're risking people who are going out on worn Rivals or RE-71Rs who may have a better tire for the rain and suddenly it becomes a safety issue.


The biggest issue with the ruleset, as mentioned earlier - is that you have club racers determining this stuff and it's matter of fact all personal opinion. It was simply pointed out yesterday that per the wording in Touring - final drive swap is acceptable but yet they clarified that "This wasn't their intent". There seems to be no clear flushing of the rules and it seems very rushed to try and tap into this gold mine, IMO.

It is funny, they sold this whole TT aspect as "Have fun come on out". Now all the sudden we have a shit ton of rules and stupid language as they're trying to make something out of it.

I think really the toughest part for me, in consideration of building a dual use 86 Cup stock class and SCCA TT Sport car, is the limit on camber adjustment back to using just the crash bolts. Certainly adding the springs can help there though. I threw together a quick build on the 86 Cup calculator that also works out to almost a full Sport class build, and it actually still looks pretty good.

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...duo1srbkto.jpg

Would likely have a 2nd set of 17x8 wheels with different tires for TT, since I will run the SX2 for 86 Cup.

I don't really like being restricted to TireRack for springs, as I'd much rather run RCE Yellows than any of the offerings on TR. Though that could likely be appealed under point 4 of the Springs section. Yellows are very common on these cars, and it could easily be argued they follow the spirit of that rule.

Also, if I was running an 86 Cup only car I'd substitute the intake for E85 and add rear LCAs.

Question on the bushings portion. Would that exclude the Whiteline rear diff bushings then? I'm assuming yes, but haven't looked into the difference in materials much. I need to replace that bushing, and several others, before next season and would ideally like to go with something more suited to track use than stock.

As an outsider, this ruleset seems doable to start with. I have autox a few times but decided to go the track route in the end, though my car is still close to STX prep since I planned for that path originally. And thankfully the Norcal 86Drive Challenge rules are more forgiving to SCCA mods then 86cup rules (STX is a street class car vs. touring/modified basically). And I can second @Tony r as there are very few autox guys that come to the track to compete.

My biggest gripe is the current state of "200tw" tires that wear way faster. It does nothing but increase cost for drivers over the course of a season. And if you autox you would likely need a separate set for TT since you don't necessarily want such a wide tire.

As far as people testing the rules I just see that as what happens in any competitive environment, no matter if the goal was that or to give people an opportunity to get their feet wet. The key will be incentives that benefit the new people and not just stuff for the top guys at each event.

But if I look at things like GTA, I either need to put a catted header in as well or be in class with turbo cars. Or basically needed a track only car with full safety gear for NASA. So for someone like me new to tracking, I like this opportunity. The more series there are the more likely you can cross over between one or two and still be competitive in class.

It still is, the rules draft was always there. Just as with autocross, prepping to the limit of the rules is as serious as you want it to be. I am not a fan of the SCCA rule mentality, I think its writing a bunch of stuff to save people from themselves and it really doesn't help anyone, just confuses the message (read: preambles stuff the SEB is pushing).

Overall I think the idea of and the outline is OKAY, it always can be better, but SCCA has to make this work with the other programs and that paints them into a corner.

On the tire rule - I don't find RE's or Rivals to be "unsafe" in the wet. They are not optimal, but they are not going to send me into a wall. I will have to drive more cautiously, for sure. If it's projected to be wet, I'm running RE's. If it's going to be a torrential downpour I'm bringing ECS's. If the ECS choice fucks me, oh well. I'm there to have fun anyway.

Went ahead and submitted a letter to allow an exception for the RCE Yellow springs in Sport, since they're so common among Toyobaru and WRX track cars that are running just a lowering spring/shock setup. Fingers crossed it's approved, because I'd rather run Yellows than either Eibach or HR options.

Eh, I could write a novel but nobody gives a fuck.

I just have to ask myself if I want to spend >$1k for a weekend TT event (tires, entry fee, hotel, gas, wear and tear, etc.) and if I show up with used tires will I be on the bench after they wear out or will I be able to run ~300TW beaters to get some fun seat time at the end of the event. If I'm not showing up with competitive tires might as well hit an HPDE.

Of course I'm probably just overestimating my own talent, I'd be racing for a trophy spot behind Tony anyway :bellyroll:

If anyone comes with a reasonably prepped S2k and at least decent talent, I'm fucked too. Honestly it's going to be a great program and more about the people and experience, with some fun competition and track time sprinkled in.

In all reality I care more about participating in 86 Cup Midwest, but wouldn't mind making it out to the GMR and NCM events if possible. I likely won't be competitive in either series anyway. lol

If I'm reading the rules right, can you run a Bilstein B16/14 or KW V1 or ST on an 86 in Sport class?

I don't see anything prohibiting height adjustment when changing to an aftermarket damper/spring... I'm sure I'm missing something as I doubt it's the intent.

Edit: nvm there's something about 'OE attachment points' which would prevent spring perch adjustability. Carry on.

That still leaves third open for contention if nobody else really fast shows up. A few 86cup guys and the Tsang's, a 4-banger Camaro/Mustang, S2k, RX8, T4 could be really deep at the first event if people come out.

I was thinking the same thing at first. haha

Im glad I live close to NCM, which hosted the first SCCA TT. Pretty rad!

Initial response to my question about an exception for RCE Yellows sounds positive. Will see what the board ends up deciding.

I don't see much incentive in doing this instead of a regular track day with a GPS.

When I used to do some track days, I used worn Hankook R-S3 since they took too long to heat up at autox w/low tread and take heat well. If you want to compete in this time trial, you would want to run bridgestones or rivals, I am not sure if these tires are best for these type of events.

@justint5387 reading some stuff and talking to people it's probably a mistake to think about this like an hpde with 20 minute hot lapping sessions with a transponder, everyone will be managing the tires so it seems like the format will be more like go out do two or three hot laps, cool down and come in, not sure if they stagger the cars every session or how it will be broken up but I'm sure that will come out in due time.

Maybe it's just how I'm feeling today but I think it'd draw more people if they excluded the stones and bfgs and Nexens so you could use a set that will take a beating for a track day of beforehand prep, the event, and maybe even another event or two or three after. idk, it'd cut the cost in half by my accounting (assuming your prep work burns up a set of sticky tires), I'd probably DD on the second wheelset set just for looks as I try to keep the miles off the stones.

As to why pick this over a regular track day? lol, you guys do SCCA and national events for a reason, the competition, running some random HPDE and comparing to maybe one or two buddies ain't gonna be the same as this thing drawing people from out of state. 86cup might be close but around here their reach is smaller than SCCA.

The likelihood of balling up your car at autocross is a lot lower than at a time trial. Personally, competition at a higher speed is not what I am looking for.

I've sustained infinitely more damage at autocross than on track... Any tips on replacing the front on one of these?

Legit asking for any suggestions from anyone btw, no sarcasm or digs, I think I'll be disassembling the front end over the winter, bumper is flapping in the breeze and I've got an oil seep from the timing cover and at 75k it's not too early to swap some coolant in.

You guys get cheap track days out west.

The other appeal to this for me is that I'm more likely to have people I know at one of these over a random track day.

You shouldn't hit cones with the front of the car. It's pretty easy to remove the bumper, are the liners gone?

Liners still in place, good to know it's not too painful, just gotta sit down and do it at some point and fix the plastic that's been fucked.

You're right, I've hit more cones on the side, but aside from some minor dings on the sheet metal and scuffs there's nothing to do there but clean off the paint and PDR.

Last time I ran practice course I had the LF side marker dangling out by the cord, I'd like to stop that from happening...

In any case, back to SCCA Tire Trials

There is inherent risk involved at any motorsport event. Definitely a little more with TT as the speeds are higher and the cars are running together, but I've personally seen more serious damage take place at local Autocross than any other track day or time trial I've been to. I can think of two events that were very serious in the past two years, along with a lot of minor offs with splitters/front ends getting ruined. Oh, and a person(!!) getting hit. My cars have also sustained more damage hitting cones than on any HPDE/TT I've pretty much ever run. All of this is anecdotal, sure, but SCCA insurance claims across the country back it up.

The cool thing is Hagerty offers insurance for TT and TNiA. For a friend at TTN, it was $155 for the three day event covering up to $20k car damage.

As for format, TT Nationals set pretty much the standard for what these events will look like. 20min Practice sessions for seeding group orders by skill level and lap times, 20min timed session runs and Track-cross (sector timing basically). Day two will be more Timed sessions and Track-cross. All these will be combined for a total time. These events will be far more customer-focused like TNiA is - SCCA's new offerings are not the same old stuff you're use to with out of touch dinosaurs calling the shots. The idea is that they take the "party" experience of SCCA Nationals (food, beer, general tomfoolery), combine it with fun and safe track time, then sprinkle in competition.

I would encourage anyone to run a TNiA for a taste of what the experience might look like. The first and only one I've run was excellent.

Direzza Z3's are the tires to have for this type of event.
I participated at the TT nats, what I feel like came of the S6 SSC cars vs other twins (without camber, with good tires) is that on the shorter track x when the tires (non ssc) werent being repeatedly punished due to lack of camber, those cars did relatively better than the lapping sessions. I've been hearing about the 86 cup stuff and its intriguing maybe those guys would adopt the SSC rule set and that would help gain traction for both parties

Why Z3, and not something like the RS4 which tolerates heat a bit better with similar speed? The RE and Rival 1.5 are still faster than both of those, but definitely need to get the fast lap in early.

I would still take a S6 twin vs the SSC car, camber limitations and all. Building to the limit of the rules, you can choose a better spring package, better bars and hardware, modified bumpstops, and you get an intake + tune. And you get the 17+ cars in there as well, which might get the advantage due to gearing and slight HP bump. I don't think there is any way an SSC car would match, drivers being equal. The tires hold the car back quite a bit.

When using the Koni's on the twins in S6, do you have to use the strut bolt inserts? If not that's a little more camber the S6 car gets (-2 vs -3.X on the SSC car).

1.1.5.A.5.b
Suspension geometry and alignment capability, not
including ride height, may not be altered by the
substitution of alternate shock absorbers.



lol that rule number is ridiculous

More news out today - SCCA partners with GRIDLIFE and Global Time Attack to form NATA. Looks like we might see more continuity between time attack programs in the future with common rulesets a possibility.