NASA Time Trials classification for 2019: TT5 or TT6?
 

I feel like an idiot typing this. I can't seem to figure out where my car would currently class according to the proposed rules for TT6 in 2019. This year I could have participated in TTD or TT5, and I chose TTD. I would have been smoked if I was in TT5.
Can someone help me understand if I'm eligible for TT6 under the existing rules? My car is stock, other than:
Bilstein B16 coilovers
AP Sprint BBK
Camber plates
Some poly bushings (I think these are free mods. No spherical joints other than camber plates)
No aero (OEM or otherwise)
I have Maxxis RC-1s right now, but could change that depending on points.
Is there any chance for me to run in TT6, or am I stuck in TT5?
TIA

Following with interest. I *thought* the base car was still classed into 5? I'm pretty far from TT but have been trying to find a red FRS to swap trunks b/c i don't want the aero hit due to BTM with the hopes of having a DD/TT car at some point. :)

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. It just seems a bit odd to me that a stock BRZ would be in that class, as it would be competing with cars WAY faster than it. Don't quote me on this, but I'm under the impression a BRZ doesn't stand a chance unless it has forced induction or top of the line mods in every category other than FI. Hopefully someone can help us understand this better.

Umm. Not true. My car was built to the top of TTD rules. We are at 14.8 from the get go (.8 A arm penalty). I have aero so add .5 = 15.3.

So I'd need to make an average of 186whp.

Laptime wise I was very close to TT5 top running cars on a bunch of tracks. I think the FRS will be fine. The only cars which will give us a lot of problems would be E36 M3 (they have a .8 advantage for no A Arm and more torque) and S2K (more time in the game hence better built/prepared).

Believe it cant be classed TT6 because of min hp mandate. If so, needs to be very very stockish.

Lutfy

Thanks, lufty. Which part, exactly, is not true?
I've run TTD the last couple years. While my car is not built to the limit of the class, it's close. Wouldn't I be at (or near) the bottom of TT5 as it is now?
The minimum horsepower mandate is what concerns me, in part. I believe it says there is just no way a BRZ can be in TT6, which means if one wants to run a BRZ competitively in TT, one has to spend a lot of money to modify his/her car.

The part being not competitive. Here's a run at Summit: https://racehero.io/events/nasa-ma-s...rall-Dbb00c000

Samed Rizvi is the fastest TT5 guy in class. He ran TT4 that weekend so took some weight off and is making some 200 average whp When running with him on the track, you can see the he pulls on the straights.

I was running R7 that weekend.

Here's another one with Conti slicks (slower than the R7, when no strong competition in class, I run Conti to save the R7s).

https://racehero.io/events/nasa-ma-v...rall-Dbb002f00

So essentially, with more power and or being lighter, I should be OK in TT5, then its a driver's race.

In your case, you take a little bit of a hit from BBK but no aero helps you out.

With R7, suspension dialed in and average whp/weight matched, I dont see any issues in TT5 for you (next year). Our cars are very competitive.

I came from over a decade of using E36 M3 for club racing racing/tracking/de/tt (seven different cars, not at the same time...) and wanted a different chassis. I love our cars and equal to equal (E36 benefits in TT5) the only threat is the S2K.

Lutfy

Thank you. So basically to be competitive in TT5 I need to significantly improve power to weight and run Hoosiers or similar, correct? That's what I (unsuccessfully) tried to get at in an earlier post. I'm not going to improve power to weight in any significant way. I'm not going to use forced induction of any kind, and I'm not going to strip my car for weight savings, as it is my DD.

I read the NASA thread on FRS and it seems that the consensus was that brake upgrades were not necessary for the points and you had to be on racing slicks to make it an even playing field (but running w/225s to get a point back).

E85 should do the trick power wise. From what I have seen, even with OEM headers, you should be able to make the power.

I weigh 2870ish with me in the car with rollbar and rear bunch removed. So if you stripped the rear (junk from the trunk) and with E85 tune, you should be very very close to the hp/weight allocation of 14 plus .8 plus .2 = 15

Can run any tires but to me competitive, R7 for sure.

Lutfy

Thats correct. I am on OEM brakes and have no issues. For TTD I get the points back running 225, thats correct. But for TT5 next year, tire size points etc are invalid as they measure the width on the wheel. I tried 17*9 with 225 and its a go. 245 Hoosier will not fly (someone measured it on the NASA TT Facebook forum).

Lutfy

Certainly one doesn't need a BBK on this car if you just want to put in a few hot laps to compete in TT. But if you want durability over longer sessions, as well as lower running costs over the long term, a BBK can make a lot of sense.
I was rebuilding my OEM calipers annually as the dust boots would degrade from the heat.
I don't really think the BBK does much for my lap times, but there are durability and piece of mind benefits. I won't be removing them to be more competitive in TT.

Thanks again, lufty. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and experience.
It is becoming clear to me I just won't be competitive in TT after this year. I'm not willing to spend $1,500 to $3,000 per year on race tires. And I'd rather not run E85 if I don't have to. There is no E85 close to the track I go to the most. I suppose I could fill up jugs and bring it with me, but riding around with 30 gallons inside my car doesn't sound very appealing, either.
It sounds to me like there are ways I can be competitive in TT5. Unfortunately my priorities don't align well with what it takes to get the job done. I may just have to resign myself to driving in an class where I'm not at all competitive, or maybe even just start driving in HPDE again.:sigh:

Off topic here but my understanding is that the 225 Hoosiers run closer to 245 in width in a street tire. Is that right? If so I may need to get wider wheels as well b/c 245 street tires on an 8 inch rim seems too pinched.

Yes, that's right.

Ugh that's annoying... Should've gone with 9 inch to begin with!

Hey James, you'd be fine. Edgar Morales (Endless Pain on this forum) was the top running TTC BRZ in NorthEast/Mid Atlantic last year. He ran 17*8 with 225/40/17 R7 with no issues and the tires did not look pinched.

Lutfy

I hear you and want to run petrol/gas for the same reason. I am thinking of stripping the s**t out of the car. Which would mean extra 200lbs. I make 2850 with no pass seat and half tank of gas now.

This was the reason to NOT run TT5 this year but I was delaying the inevitable. While my FRS was built to be on the front of TTD it will be just another TT5 for next year as the competition is very stiff. Which in some ways I dont mind, as it would be a driver's race.

Lutfy

Sweet! I will keep my SSRs then. They're light as hell so that'll help. Hoping to be at the very back of the TT5 pack in 2020. :)

Since we’re off topic now... do you guys know how nonBTM wings are assessed if you have multiple ones? Like if you have a car with a rear wing from the factory and then got a real wing, it’s the same point or is it assessed double since there’s two? Trying to find a trunk with no wing is hard these days...

Rear wing of any kind is free (from my interpretation of the rules). You take points for front splitter only.

Canards/diffuser is illegal.

Lutfy

I'm reading the provisional rules and this excerpt specifically:

"Vehicles that maintain the unmodified Base Trim Model (BTM) body lines, do not have non-BTM aerodynamic aides or modifications, and do not have a rear wing or rear spoiler may assess the Modification Factor for “BTM Aero” in calculating the “Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio”. Under this specific rule, an aerodynamic aide is considered non-BTM if it did not come configured on the base trim model (BTM) of the vehicle from the manufacturing factory. Except for those vehicle-specific higher level trim models (nonBTM) listed in Appendix B, there is no updating or backdating across trim models or the addition of dealer installed options permitted." Underline from the source doc, not mine.

Here's the source: https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...1--7-31-18.pdf

Seems like the factory wing counts, no?

Edit: I think I know where we are disconnecting. I think you mean free as in no penalty, and I think of free as in getting the benefit of not having a wing (+ factor). So I think the question of how many wings are acceptable the answer is you can have as many as you want as there are no points against it. I guess to clarify my question - is the 0.4pts of not having any wing and sticking with BTM aero worth it or are those points better spent on a giant wing (because the stock wing is of no use and suboptimal for the 0.4pts)?

You are right! OEM wing should count for Base model trim and credit of .4

Challenge is lets say even if you put down 186 average (196whp peak) on E85 and no aero and say running RE71R (fastest tire treaded tire out there) and get .3 credit there. 14 + .8 A Arm - .3 tire -.4 no rear wing = 14.1 + .1 for under 2850lbs.

186*14.2 = 2641 fully loaded (w/driver). Remove 200lbs for an average driver. No way we can get our car to 2441!

Based on that rationale, I added the Hoosier R7, front and rear aero to get up to the weight

Currently barely clicking by 2850 with half tank of gas and no pass seat. Or 1/8th empty with pass seat.

A completely stripped at the back with exception of rollbar. Race seat (driver's side), pass seat removed. No muffler (track pipe), header, light weight wheels....

I need to average 186 or 196whp max in order to make it with current weight. Essentially, switch from gas to E85 to make it worth without removing AC, door cards, front carpet, stereo, lighter battery.

That .8 factor is really hurting us. An E36 with a rear wing will be at 220 average hp and times 14 flat for them = 3080lbs with driver. Greg always favor the E36 hence its such a pain to beat their lap records at most tracks (but doable and done).

That is the car to beat in TT5.

Lutfy

Wow that factory hp limit has me confused. I am/was planning to build an SSC autox car that was also decent for TT6. It would fall in at about 17.2 so I was thinking it could be competitive. It seems a little strange to use lbs/hp, but then also add a stock hp limit.

How heavy is your roll bar? I have a full interior and barely any mods and i was 2730 with me, a helmet, and 3/4 tank of gas :iono:

I am going to guess 75lbs. It was pretty heavy but I will be speculating if I said 'a concrete number'. Its an OTS Autopower half welded rollbar.

Weight savings came from lighter wheels and tires (Hoosier R7), no muffler but a pipe, header, removal of front pass seat, everything behind the front seats being gone (save for the speakers). Race seat with slider and mount. I am 200lbs on the spot. With half tank of gas and the above setup I am exactly 2850lbs so know I need to run a touch above half tank or come in earlier before being weighed. I tend to go out with full tank of gas or half tank (and try to come in closer to 1/4 if I have a pass seat in there).

2730 with driver and 3/4 gas is very light!

Lutfy

PS: I see your sig. I have stock battery, driveshaft and exhaust save for the header and race pipe for muffler.

Battery, trunk junk, header, front pipe cut big chunks out of the weight, more than i expected. Now i will HAVE to go TT5 when i make it out of HPDE

Depending on how long you have been in DE Solo or DE3/4 you can request a check out ride for TT. Once you get your provisional lic, you can start competing. Its fairly safe (in our region) with good/fun competition. Your DE insurance will cover you in TT as well.

I instruct with NASA Mid Atlantic (mostly) and sometimes with SE and NE. Heading to Dominion Sept 15 for a TTD showdown (we have a bunch of participants).

Hope to see you and your car out at the track.

Cheers,

Lutfy

I guess TTD is done! Won the regional championship and broke the previous lap record at Summit Point (set by an E36 M3 in 2014) by over a second.

With 1/4 tank of gas, I came in at 2845 with me in the car. My goal is to remove all the airbags and module for likely 20lbs saving. I dont have passenger seat (when in TT trim) and want to keep some creature comfort (stereo/ac) as I drive to and from the track.

When the battery goes, I'll go ligher. Same when the clutch goes, will opt for lighter flywheel....

In a nutshell I'll be around 2825. Dynoed in a 195 raw on E85. 185 corrected which gives me 174 average (when using the DynoJet file).

Have the front splitter, rear wing. 14 plus .7 for A Arm, .5 for splitter and .1 for under 2850 = 15.3

With current power, still 16.2....

Looked at MCA Traction Mod is not legal. Guess thats going to be it, easy shift to TT5 I guess.

What is everyone else doing?

Running TT4 and consistently breaking something (the car or the track record).

Grats on the win @lutfy. I've been busy losing championships :P (3rd place this year).

By the way, I removed the airbags and all of the plastic things that cover them (roof, sides, the pillars no the windshield, etc..). It all came down to around 30lbs including the stereo, or around with 20lbs without touching the dashpanel (and stereo) at all.

I will be in TT5 this coming year as well. I am at 2750 with 1/4 tank of gas and me and 186 avg horsepower for 14.78 raw and 14.18 or 14.68 adjusted depending on tires. Considering switching from RC1 to R7 as others are running Toyo RR and RE71s with a possible R7 entrant not confirmed yet.

I had figured it was 20lbs. Did you sell yours? Wondering how much are the SRS worth.



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Wow! How did you get the weight that low? I have rollbar which adds 50lbs.

What engine mods? 186 average is amazing!! I made 174 average fully uncorked on e85.


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No, its laying around somewhere. :bonk:

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The car is fully gutted and caged and have the AP sprint kit. Here are a couple interior shots.


For power mods, just ACE header/frontpipe and Delicious Flex tune. On E54 I peak at 196.

Very nice!! Thats the way to go... What are your local tracks?

Summit Point, Dominion, Watkins Glen and VIR for me.

Nothing near as good as those.

We have Arizona Motorsports Park and Wildhorse Pass, which has 3 small tracks, 4 if you count Bondurant. We also make a trip to Chuckwalla every year.

Just checking in here to this thread, as I'm building my FRS for TT5 for next year :) Currently the car is in SSC autox form, but basically changing everything for next year. I ran a couple events at Mid-Ohio with NASA this year (one with HPDE3, then TT...massively under-prepped for TTD) and I'm hooked!

Here is my general plan:
Power: JDL 4-2-1 header, over pipe, and catless frontpipe and Delicious Tune on 93 (already ordered) and Tanabe Concept G single exit catback
Coilovers: MCS are attractive due to the contingency and great reputation, but the RCE T2's and CSG Flex A are on my list as well. Raceseng front camber plates and spherical plates for the rear.
Stock sway bars with RacerX Fab endlinks
RPF1 17x9 +35's with 225 Hooser R7's
Currently on Carbotech AX6 pads which didn't fade at Mid-Ohio or NCM (as long as I didn't over-brake), but I'm guessing I'll need to go to a more aggressive pad with the Hoosier's?
Most likely a race seat, harness, and harness bar
Once I have a better idea on the weight, I plan to fine tune with weight reduction, aero, etc.

A couple questions...hoping you all can add some insight:
Are adjustable rear LCA's necessary or will whatever camber I get once lowered be fine? I already have the SPC LCA's, but it is a pretty significant point penalty just to fine tune camber.
I have the OEM rear spoiler...I would have to remove this in order to take advantage of the +0.4 for BTM aero, correct?
Are harness bars (not 4 point half cage) frowned upon in the NASA realm? I know that at least a 4 point half cage would be ideal, but I'm not sure that I want to make the leap yet...

My comments:

Youd be fine with the 93 tune altough may need more power with E85 I made 178 and 195 respectively. With correction it came to 185 and then averaged to 174. So thats my baseline.

No need for rear LCA. I have -2.6 or so camber at the back stock when lowered, its not worth the points we will take for it.

Get rid of that OEM spoiler not worth the points.

Get the rollbar. Its worth the safety and when you need it. Get proper seat and harnesses so you can wear your Hans. Plus being planted in the seat gives you the butt sensitivity feeling (not sounding perverted but the connected feel :) Plus you never know when you need it. I have gone off a few times due to oil on the track and what nots. Ideally I should drive a caged car but since I DD to and from the track, I am compromised. You'll push a LOT harder than you would in DE.

17*9 with 245 is the upper limit. I ran 225 because of TTD points but TT5 go as wide as you can. Those 245s measure 267mm.

I have used DTC70 (Hawk) all around with excellent results. With Hawk contingency and Raybestos rotors (contingency) it has worked like a champ for me. I have Castrol SRF and had zero issues, fade or whatever in TT, double down DE4 (with or without passenger). Extremely cost effective. Its good for breaking records and if not, off 10th at tracks I have been to. Save the .02 points. Others may have a different opinion, I am going by what I have used.

I have MCS and while I dont know anything about the other brands, I have been nothing but pleased. Have used other motorsport shocks in the past (JRZ RS, custom tuned Bilstein, KW Competition) and I like the tunability of these shocks.

You'll have points for "real" aero! I have gone with APR front and rear (3d rear wing).

OS Giken diff made a world of different. I couldnt put the power down (inside wheel spinning) coming out with the Hoosiers, this fixed it.

Good luck and enjoy.

Lutfy