Is there a proper term for this on track behavior?
 

So I was at Autobahn outside of Chicago this past weekend and had a great time and learned a lot. One corner was a little baffling to me and I'm not sure what's the right term to describe it. On most of the corners, the car takes a set, and I can basically control the direction with changes in throttle, with more throttle mid turn = more track out, and less throttle with tucking in, which makes logical sense to me considering the physics of weight management. In this particular corner, however, the opposite is true. When I'm pretty far mid turn and heading for the second apex, more throttle equals more tuck in but in a very controlled and non-threatening manner, which was completely unexpected, and not what I've found at other corners.

Car is running 225 Direzza Z2's, and I have Bilstein B8/RCE Tarmacs with rear LCAs but otherwise pretty stock.

Is there a term for this behavior? It's not what I would normally equate with oversteer but maybe that's the correct descriptor? Does my description of it make sense? I can try to upload a video if helpful but not sure how clear it'll show that since it's not a dramatic shift in car direction.

Depends on the corner. Is it banked? The grip may be different as well compared to other corners. Perhaps you are starting to learn about throttle steer.

On camber turn? Off camber turn? Different surface? Incline or decline?

The car is not going to behave exactly the same on every turn. Dynamics of the turn can make a big difference if dramatic enough.

No banking, pretty flat, so not different vs. other corners in that regard. Grip may be different (not sure how to measure that aspect of it). Throttle steering is something I'm doing at the other corners so i don't think that's it. Again if the car is just more neutral rather than pushing a little bit when throttle is applied then I'd understand it easier since that may mean I have more grip and can push harder in that corner. But the fact that it's actually tucking the nose in by a couple of degrees that's confusing me because as I'm applying throttle more weight should shift rear and lowering grip on the front, but instead I somehow seem to have more grip.

Which corner? I'm familiar with ABCC, and it might help to know which one you're talking about.

It's turn 13/14. I'm trying to crop a video so others can see it.

Is the front end tucking, or is the rear end rotating? Also, what inputs are you putting in to get down to that second apex? Now contrast with how you get down and through the first apex.

I didn't think about it in those terms. I would say it's actually more the rear rotating than the front tucking, so that's a great clarification. Thank you.

On the first apex i'm more lifting, turning in to settle the car and as I'm between first and second apex I'm starting to apply throttle with same steering angle, and the rear rotates in a way that I'm not feeling in other corners where i'm doing the same thing (e.g., same steering angle and feeding throttle mid turn).

Here's the video of the corner:

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMM0q7xRZGU[/ame]

And here's a video of the whole course to give you some sense. I already uploaded the entire thing and it seems to take forever to crop a little section so I'm just posting the entire thing for the sake of expediency rather than cutting one lap.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGuzuFbYnyI[/ame]

I think the answer is no to every question. The vids are in the post above so it gives you some idea of the track and turn. Thanks. :)

Sounds like classic throttle steer to me.

Thanks, Vincent. Since both you and @CSG_David mentioned it I'll assume it's the right term. I have two follow up questions:

1) How is "throttle steer" different from steering with the throttle? The latter, as I've been taught in the class and experienced on track, is bringing the car out or in with the throttle using the same steering angle (more throttle is wider turn, and inversely with less throttle). In this instance, the opposite is happening. So are they fundamentally two different concepts?

2) What's unique about this corner, based on what you can see, that causes this behavior? I understand that there are a lot of variations for each corner, but I literally have not felt this in another corner in any of the tracks I've been to, so I'm a little confused on what I'm doing that's unique. If I can apply this in other corners it'll be awesome but I have to know how to replicate... :)

Thanks much everyone! :cheers:

Forgive me if this sounds a bit raw, but all I see in the video is a car going around the track in a very tame manner. Maybe the tires are completly silent and video and sound dont tell the whole story, but your track out is still far off the edge of the track and your apex are a hit or miss. I see a little bit of the "tuck in" that you speak in the video, but that looks like what the car does when the stability control kicks in (brakes on rear wheels).

Maybe we have wildly different concepts of what throttle steering is, but throttle steering refers to steering the car by generating a rotation on the rear of the vehicule, by basically exceding the rear grip with throtle and getting a higher slip angle than the the front (or in other words, a very controlled and small drift thru the corner). I see none of that in the video.

Keep in mind that throttle steering can occur in different ways. For example, if your car is set up to be a bit loose in the rear, you can get on the throttle, which causes greater rear slip angle ("oversteer") which can sometimes help the car turn in a bit better, or at least feel as though it is turning in better, and point you more towards the inside of the turn. That's one type of "steering with the throttle."

But depending on the track surface, tires, car setup, etc... it could instead just result in more understeer, since more throttle naturally shifts weight rearward, reducing front end grip. In that scenario, you would be pushed wide, to the outside of the corner. That's a different kind of "steering with the throttle." There are a lot of variables that affect what happens when you lean on the throttle mid-curve, and they will dictate how the vehicle responds. MOST of the time, it's safe to say that getting on the throttle widens your line through a corner, but sometimes you can take advantage of your setup to force a bit more rotation with the throttle.

I'm sure others can give better info, but that's a start anyway.

Please don't apologize. You're using your time to provide advice and perspective, and that's helpful even if it's constructive criticism. I'm a fairly novice driver, and certainly have a lot to learn, hence my question on this as it's a foreign feeling for me.

On to your points.
- Circling in a tamer manner -- as mentioned, definitely have lots of room to improve as a novice, but certainly didn't feel tame in the driver's seat! The sound on the video recorder isn't great so you do have to turn it up a bit to hear well.

- Track out -- are there particular corners where you feel I didn't track out enough? There's one corner in particular where I'm definitely guilty and it's something I need to work on, and in general I'm probably a foot off the edge just because I'm not comfortable enough to be that close yet, but my instructors did not feel I'm far off the edge on the other corners. Not challenging your assertion, just want to better understand if there's any particular corner(s) you're referring to.

- Apex -- Again, specific corner commentary would be helpful.

- Stability control -- everything was off.

- Throttle steer -- got it. Your explanation makes perfect sense and that was the sensation going through that corner. Is that a term of art and when I say throttle steer everyone knows that it's different than steering with the throttle?

Maybe your point is the right one, which is that whether it's throttle steer or steering with the throttle it's the same thing (using throttle to change the line of the car) with different effects (oversteer vs. understeer), and it's just up to the people discussing it to clarify what it's meant by it. I was just wondering if there was a specific term for the instance that I was feeling. Looks like the answer may be no (or at least doesn't seem to be consensus, which means it'll require clarification anyway). :)

Well, if you are just starting, dont be too hard on yourself. It feels like everything is super quick and that its a razor's edge but as you do it more, it will all slow down (your perception of things) and will feel quite calm.

Well, with the sound as high as it can go (both video and PC sound settings), I can hear a bit more and that helps a bit more. What I mean by hit or miss apex, for example at min 1:35, that berm is (looks at least) very flat and round, that is part of the track, and you are close to it, but not touching it. You should be over it, so you are easily 2-3 feet off the apex there, which is kind of big. For track outs, its hard to tell because you should have to steer towards the exit, or unwind the wheel completely mid corner to get to the exit of a corner, you get there naturally while trying to negotiate a corner. If you didnt, it means you could've gone faster thru the corner.

For now just worry about feeling what the car is doing and controlling it (it does what you want it to do). Proper car control is something I wish more people I see at the track had. Speed will come naturally after that.

For me, throttle steer and steering with the throttle is pretty much the same thing and is just generating more rotation by increasing the slip angle at the rear and is only possible in RWD (or AWD with rear bias) cars. Others might have different definitions of it, but it is not important what its called or what it is, really.

Last thing since you are starting. One thing I wished I knew when I started, most instructors want you to be a safe driver because you want to leave the track with a car, and they want to leave the track walking. As a rookie, there are many things that are taught to you so that you can be safer, but that dont really make you a faster driver. Its still ok to learn it all, but its not the be all / end all.

Thanks, again, Icecreamtruck, for the comments. One part (bolded above) that was a little bit confusing. Unwinding earlier is something I'm trying to work on, but I think you're suggesting to unwind completely by mid turn? Is that right?

All fantastic advice for a new track novice for sure! To add to the point about everything happening in WARP speed for the first few events. This is often a byproduct of not looking anywhere near far enough ahead. KEEP THOSE EYES UP :)

Looking up means that you see everything happening sooner, your brain has more time to process it, and then respond. Give the brain more time to process information, and all of a sudden you're taking in more data than you were before. You feel / hear more car feedback that you can then use... If you're looking too close in, you're already behind the momentum of the car, and just trying to play catch up. Which then feels like an endless game of catch-up and that you just cant go faster, wondering how the guys passing you are going so fast... You go where you are looking - look farther, you'll go faster, and watch those lap times drop ;)

No sry, I mean the other way around, not to unwind too soon, or too much. Instructors are always about the need to unwind to let the car accelerate that students usually end up unwinding too much. Also, like @Joesurf79 said, looking far ahead is very important, cant believe I didnt mention it :slap:

Ok cool. I thought I'd have to grow another two pair to unwind at midpoint!

Thanks again both for the advice.

The list of things to work on is such a long list... looking up, brake harder, brake more consistently, ease off brakes, better rev match, smooth turn in, smooth track out, and so on and so forth. :D:D

I recently started instructing drivers on track, and the first few sessions in the car were tough on me because I had to be out EVEN FURTHER ahead of the student. From the right seat, I had to be 4-5 seconds ahead or where I was used to already!


It is surprising how many things we innately do once you practice them enough - it's hard to recall and regurgitate them all first run through ;)

Not to over simplify it, but I've found that if I'm already oversteering a little, more throttle will increase oversteer. If I'm already understeering, more throttle worsens understeer.

Maybe on the other corners you're pushing a bit when you get back on the power, and on this one you're rotating a little when you get back on the power.

For me - Looking up is the crux of the issue. That+ repetition.


The more time you give yourself and the more familiar you become with the "limits" of the car (even in near stock form - get decent brake fluid, pads and a bit of negative front camber/zero toe, oil cooler if you're hooked on this stuff ;) ) the rest comes naturally if you're looking up, with repetition and seat time.


Try and tuck in behind some folks that are just a hair faster (in similar cars if possible) once you're comfortable, and follow their lines / braking points.

Yeah that seems to be what's happening. Just need to recreate it as much as I can because it felt pretty awesome!

Addicted I am. All the items you mentioned I have already, so for now I really don't think I need more mods (want is a separate issue...). The car feels really good on track seemingly without any bad habits.

I generally try to run with NASA and I'm currently in group 2 and so far but it seems like group 3 is where people get faster and 2 is this no mans land between when people are good enough to be out by themselves but not fast enough yet and need to work on more skills. As such not a lot of people to follow, especially in momentum cars. But since there's more than enough to work on I'll be occupied for a while! :thumbup:

Welcome to the fold! We all keep learning, trying things, make small mistakes. It's a fun pursuit for sure!


Learn from mistakes early on and form the good habits / don't dwell on mistakes you do make. No one is perfect, except maybe Senna :D

This thread....*sniff*....it makes me feel really good. This forum is so far ahead of others in terms of patiently helping others that ask nicely. Good people on this forum.

:clap:

- Andrew

STFU, Andrew. Nobody asked YOU!

Hi there. First off let me congratulate you for having a fantastic disposition to learn. Your humbleness is going to take you far away into this hobby.
Like you, I am local to this track and I live in Bolingbrook. I track with a time attack prepped by me 2014 BRZ.
You were running ABBC South. In our cars turns 13 and 14 are quite simple. Come into turn 13 full gas and lift briefly before marker 1 to set your front suspension. Stay as left as possible and then roll into turn 13/14 throttle steering and aiming to get fully on the gas as early as possible positively carrying maximum speed through this sector. You need to track out after turn 14 all the way left getting maximum usage of the track. Turn 13 and 14 should be tied into one motion from the steering wheel. Your main goal through these turns is to carry as much speed as possible before you set for turn 1 and that depends on tire stick, weather conditions and most importantly on your work through the previous complex of turns 11 and 12. Turn 11 is the one that that really defines your final speed before turn 13 and believe me when I tell you, this is why turn 11 is nicknamed Patience.
In our cars or in Miatas between turn 12 and 13 you can seep your cup of coffee :)
Best of luck to you buddy.

Hi Andy,

Thanks for the kind words and notes about the turn. I thought turns 9/10 was called "patience?" Anyway, which group do you usually run with? Maybe I'll seee you at the track at some point and can get a ride. :)

I meant everyone except Stang70Fastback, who sucks. :)

- Andrew

@Jamestl I suggest repositioning your camera to show your hands if possible. At this stage of your driving development it's helpful to see afterwards.

- Andrew

Good point. Not sure whether the line will run from the Solo all the way back so I may need to put the solo in the back as well. Worth playing with it for sure. :)

Hey James, Turn 9 in the full course configuration is turn 11 in the south course configuration. You were indeed running the South Track so I called it turn 11. In any case, it is patience and you have to be.... If you want to build more speed before the sector you were inquiring about.
I run in the instructor group and I will be delighted to work with you.
Quite frankly, although the ABCC is and OK track, I do not go there anymore since last year. I think I am really tired of it :(
The positive is that I go a little farther but much better race tracks and weather. Hit me up in a private message and we can chat at your convenience. We could also hook up on a weekend one of these weekend days so you can see my BRZ.

Awesome! I'll take you up on the offer!

I love you

I see you too, sexy! :wub:

Hey @Jamestl and @AndyBRZ - I’m a newbie, but I live in Clarendon Hills and work in Bolingbrook, and I’d really like to have local 86 guys to show me the path to becoming a track junkie! No pressure, but if you set up a meeting together I sure would appreciate an invite, too.

Will send you a PM. You’ll be addicted in no time!

"Just this once, I just want to try it..."
"I learned it from watching you!"
"It isn't hurting anyone..."

Addiction is real. You'll think bleeding brakes is fun. Soon enough you'll be selling off interior parts to fund the next set of tires. Screeching to a halt because swapping track pads between weekends is a hassle. Then you'll be driving a 10 year old truck to tow the track car. Contemplating how badly you need both kidneys, because 1) lighter weight 2) more tires, pads, track fees ;) Do my kids really need any help with college?