S2000 to BRZ tS (long post)
 

I bought my AP1 S2000 sixteen years ago for $33,000 (no options) but I did add a hardtop for $2400. I am not going to include the cost of new wheels or mods but I adding the cost of the hardtop because to me that was a key option and I loved the hardtop almost as much as the convertible top and used the hardtop almost half the year. I am adding the cost of the hardtop into the purchase price $35,400 *this was in 2002 dollars. Now16 years ago become more value when you factor inflation and cost of living. Such that $35K is around the same as $47K in today's money. I am not saying straight across the board that all things cost more today than in years past, for instance at one time a calculator cost $2000 while today I can buy a calculator for $2 at Walmart. Computers as well have come down in price, TVs as well. The average car in 2002 was selling for $26K today the average selling price is $36K. So back in 2002 the S2000 was above the average price. I'm not saying it was totally out of wack, it was a nice car but a Boxster cost $42K+ back then while today a Boxster starts at $57K (that's $15K additional price for the same car although we'll agree the new Boxster is well more powerful.

This is my baseline when I was buying my new car. I wanted to get something in the spirit of a S2000 but I didn't want to get another S2000. I had a tight fit in the S2000. I did technically fit and drove the car 38K miles. I always regret selling my S2K but at the time having two cars to my self was not idea. So, I wanted to buy a spiritual successor to my S2K (yet not buy another S2K) and I didn't fit on the new MX5 (is smaller than my S2K and I'm 6-2). I figured all the cars, Cayman, Mustang, Corvette, M2 or any BMW. I ruled out the German cars because I wanted to keep the costs/repairs to a minimum (having owned 2 BMW in my life, I swore never to buy another one). The Cayman was great but again didn't want to spend $40K on a 2-3 year old one and didn't want to spend less on an older one still. I know there is value on depreciated cars like the Cayman, but I do like new cars and I also sometimes am less sure if an old car might be more in need of service and maintenance than a new car. I am aware that new cars depreciate and thus are worse money pits than a well cared for used car. But time is money and I didn't want to potentially be spending a lot of time at the service station also they all say P-car tax (meaning the cost of parts are higher like I found with my M3). Mustang (just too heavy) plus I don't want high power. I had high power in my M3 and while it's great, to me I find more fun on a small car where I can wail on it and not really be in go to jail speed that much. I'm not saying I wanted a 90hp Prius but I wanted something that was ok fast not something that was hella fast.

Corvette (same as Mustang in hella fast) plus costs more like a Cayman. Eventually, I decided on a BRZ. I know, have read a hundred reviews saying “it's too slow” or “it needs a turbo” or “it's got a torque dip” or “it's too slow”. Doug DeMuro who I usually like, did a hatchet job on the BRZ/FR-S when he compared it to his 25 year old Skyline. He claimed to be doing a drag test and when take off the Skyline takes off normally and the FR-S takes off like 0-60 in 40 seconds. I know it was supposed to be funny but really that's kind of silly when in reality the two cars are probably close enough in time. I mean the BRZ is tested on C&D like 6.4 seconds. Sure it's not blazing saddles but it's not a Prius with 4 people on board.

I thought the BRZ was nice, drove well, had decent room inside for my frame. It's not a SUV by any means but it's better than MX5 by a mile. Initially was going to get the Limited with Performance Package (wheels, Brembo brakes). But got to thinking of the tS. Initially I was hating on the wing said it was stupid, said I'd get the tS if it didn't have the stupid wing, said it was ricer wing. All that stuff. But then I looked at it and the side skirts and the front lip and the wing and the black wheels and the improved suspension and the interior accents and somewhat better material, it all added up to a good bit of kit for a not horrible $5000 extra. Particularly the tS comes with excellent Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (all other BRZ come with Primacy tires which do better at slipping than they do at gripping). I know tire swap is cheap but factoring in all the other kit with the tS and the fact that when I looked at it the whole package looked good to me even the wing. So I ended up buying a new Crystal white pearl tS with short throw shifter.

Total price was $33,600 which is the same as I paid for my S2000 back in the day, actually less when I got the hardtop. I know it's not as powerful as the S2000 was 240hp (BRZ 205hp) with TQ around the same and weight around the same. I can't say which car weighed more. But they are likely within 50 pounds of each other. But in fact are probably the same weight (when I factor in the hardtop which was not all that heavy but probably 50 pounds I estimate). The S2000 has just 3 less torques but revs 1500 higher which is how it makes more horsepower. Both at 2.0L naturally aspirated engine. I will say the S2000 was faultless (no issues in almost 6 years of ownership). S2000 was great fun, was quick as heck (if you rev it). I am just breaking in the BRZ can't say anything yet.

I did test drive three other BRZ that were broken in. Twice with a passenger once solo. I can say unequivocally the S2000 was faster, felt faster, but it's not like night and day. I mean the S2000 would out drag a BRZ (I don't doubt that) but it's a close race and given several tries the BRZ could probably get the edge sometimes. Neither one is a 414hp M3 or 430hp Mustang or Corvette. But if I go back in magazine times, the 2002 Mustang GT (V8 automatic) put up same exact time as 6MT BRZ. I could compare it to some early Cayman cars. Basically the BRZ would have been somewhat fast 20 years ago. Today it's kind of buried in the crush of Hellcats and Tesla's and Civic Type R and any number of quicker cars. But daily driving it's more than fine. I am just breaking it in so keeping the revs under 4000 (try) but most likely keeping the revs under 5K. So I'm not feeling 205hp anyway, but it's fine. I don't want high power car, had that in the M3 and it was great but half the time felt like I was just driving a normal 3 series because I needed to keep slow for traffic as well as speed laws. So I said it was like a killer whale in a 2 million gallon swimming pool. It's just too much more than I need, and truth is that I enjoy less powerful cars just as much as high power cars.

-Interior, I think BRZ is better than S2000. Better seats, better steering wheel reach (tilt and telescope) has real push button start (S2K needed to turn the key then push button). Has better radio (although neither is going to win any awards). BRZ has heated seats, Bluetooth, Apple Car Play, navigation, home link, remote entry, LED headlights, more storage, USB outlets.

-Power the S2000 has a better engine no questions asked 120hp/L is amazing and 8500 reline. 6MT I'm calling that a tie. Technically the S2000 is better (haven't driven one in 10 years but it was a dream like the MX5 that I drove), but the BRZ is just about as good. I have the short throw shifter and that's still not as short as the S2000 but I love it just as much. If I had to say (yes) the S2000 is slightly better.

-Feeling of weight I'm calling that a tie as well. I think the S2000 might have felt a pinch less but that may have been my imagination and the S2000 has a much shorter wheelbase (7 inches shorter) so that might lend the impression for me of being lighter. Also S2000 had 16” wheels and my tS had 18” wheels. But not sure if that was any effect on unsprung weight plus I did replace my wheels on the S2000 to larger (but still lightweight forged wheels).

-Steering both are electric but I feel like the BRZ is a lot better. The tS particularly was set up extra special suspension and the tires and that is one of the big take thing that some people have said was improved with the tS in particular.

-Road handling. I have not really pushed the BRZ but to me it's a lot nicer. It feels planted, I believe the longer wheelbase helps, it has a lot of stability control that S2000 doesn't but to me the stability control is well judged. I never feel like it's reining me in. Plus there is a track mode and you can disable it completely but overall the BRZ just handles great. I am not saying S2000 was poor but to me it's clear the BRZ is better (maybe it's the tS suspension). Again take this with a grain of salt because I have not pushed the BRZ hard at all. Also on the highway the BRZ is very stable the wing is functional with down force once you get past 70 mph (I believe). When you hit 90 mph in the S2000 you are fully aware of it, I touched 90 in the BRZ and you can take your hand off the wheel and it's just stable. Again can't say yet as the BRZ has just one week old. But I have a strong feeling the BRZ will be better IMO.

-Usability the BRZ has fold down rear seats so you can fit 4 wheels/tires. I think the S2000 can fit one tire in the trunk (not sure) but much more usable room with the BRZ.

-Looks. This is hard, the S2000 has aged well, but to my eyes the BRZ (especially the tS) looks better. I mean to my eyes the BRZ looks better.

-Value this is hard, the S2000 was expensive but it was also built like a block of metal. It was 100% bulletproof and had a great engine maybe the best four cylinder NA engine ever. The BRZ (to me) is a great value. As I said it costs $33K when the average car/truck/suv is $36K. I know Trucks and SUVs and Minivans all push the cost of vehicles up and more SUVs sold today than 16 years ago. But to me just $33K for the limited edition tS seems like a good deal. Plus it's got so many features that the S2K doesn't have (many were not even out 16 years ago).

Sum up, the BRZ is not the S2000 but it's pretty darn close and to me it's a great car. Maybe it's not a great value if you look at Mustang with 2x the power for not too much more. But taking the small power away, and just looking as a fun little car it's really not bad. Plus I like Subaru cars still drive my 2007 Legacy Wagon and we have a 2018 Outback as well.

PS side note, the BRZ is 4 inches longer than the S2000 and 6 inches shorter than the new Cayman but has a longer wheelbase than both. All three are close to the same wight but the new Cayman is actually 100+ pounds heavier.

Congrats on your BRZ! I miss my S2000 (several cars ago) but the BRZ has the best, most precise handling of any car I’ve owned to date.

I had a 2013 FR-S and now a 2017 Series.Yellow BRZ. My roommate has a 2004 Rio Yellow S2000.

I've spent some time with his car and was very close to getting an identical spec S2000 six years ago (when S2000 values were much cheaper), so I can echo some of your thoughts when comparing the S2K to the 86/BRZ:

• They are very similar cars chasing the same adage.
• The S2000 was Honda at their best and the craftsmanship reflects it.
• The S2000's F20/22C is a far superior engine to the FA20 and the stock exhaust is perfect. The stock exhaust on the BRZ is too quiet and conservative.
• The S2000 shifter is still one my favorites to shift, the BRZ isn't too far behind.
• The S2000 can be twitchy (including the AP2) and you need to be prepared to catch it (unless you have an 06+ with VSA).
• The S2000 is a more capable car as far as limits go -- Very rewarding on the track.
• The BRZ is a far more practical car yet extremely fun, it is fine as an only car, which is one of the compelling reasons why I have it.

Ah, were you the one who posted about BRZ vs Cayman? Glad to see you've reach clarity in your decision. Enjoy it and if you think about selling it in a few years, just add boost instead then... BAM! Whole new car for several more years of enjoyment. ;)

I still see this car as a better value than a Mustang even though it's close in pricing. I keep telling people it's easier to build a car with a powerful engine than it is to build a dynamically well designed sports car. I would rather add a turbo or supercharger to a 86/BRZ than have a bigger, heavier and taller car that is 1000 lbs heavier. I want the best of both worlds which is why I love my turbo. It's my favorite mod.

Yes. I'm sure the Cayman is a great car and better than the BRZ. but I didn't want to get too old used car and the newer ones are a lot more expensive to buy and I'm sure upkeep.

This is also why I went with the tS. I know the regular Limited BRZ with PP is a great car and looks great. I was not in love with the wing on the tS. But now that I've seen it in person I love it as well as all the front lip and side skirt and the wheels and the interior touches and the tires and the suspension tuning.

I drove several BRZ (not tS) and I know some people like lose (slip) of the rear with the stock tires. But to me I just prefer the grip and planted feel that the tS with the Pilot Sport tires provide.

The cost difference is not really anything to me. I mean of course the tS costs a lot more but in the scheme of things $90 more a month payment is not much.

I also think the BRZ handles better. May be the longer wheelbase or some other mojo (low center of gravity etc.) but the tS especially feels more secure. I have not really pushed it hard so can't say for certain but so far I like what I feel.

I think my e90 M3 handled just as well but only with a bit more mass to move around didn't feel as light, but it did handle probably as good as the tS.

I agree with all your post except this. I am no expert and can't say for sure if you are correct or not. But seat of my pants, it seems like the BRZ tS is on par with the S2000 (should be better than non tS car with it's functional spoiler and better suspension).

You would have to compare the BRZ ts to the S2000 CR. I'd say CR > tS, base 2000 > base BRZ. With that said, I went from an AP1 to FRS, and can't think of a better jump from a practicality/fun package perspective. Best cars I've even had. :cry:

Very nice read. Thank you.
And congrats with getting a beautiful car.

I’m content. I was thinking if I had a Cayman or Corvette (fill in the blank) I wouldn’t have any nicer looking car (imo). I’m having a blast and (engine aside) I believe the BRZ is every bit as good as the S2000 in every way. Also anyone who needs a ton of power can pass on this car, but I like the lower power in a way because I like to work up rather than having power all over the place.

I like the things absent on the S2000 such as stability control, backup camera, navigation, Bluetooth, plus I like the tS specific parts including the wing. The jury is still out if the wing looks ridiculous (it’s not a GT3) but to me I’m rather liking that as well as the tS specific suspension, tires, side skirt. It’s a bit over the top looking but it’s not hideous like the Civic type R.

I’m no Senna, so maybe the suspension and all is wasted on my skills but I can feel it working. I take a 10 mph corner today at 25-30 and it feels so hooked up and this on a mildly cold day.

Anyway just trying to get past the first 900 miles so I can really drive it, kills me to shift at 4000 rpm (5000 rpm) sometimes I cheat a little.

Great post.

I had a 2001 AP1 years ago and now have a 2013 FRS. To me the the FRS is a much better sports car. It's strange because on paper the S2000 has all the right ingredients - better gearbox, better engine, and feels more special (very much from the same Honda that created the NSX and ITR). But to me at least the 86 cars are just more fun to drive.

Maybe I'm just not good enough of a driver, but I could never fully trust pushing the S2000's handling on a back road, which was made worse by the nature of the engine - you have to BEAT ON IT to get into the power. Higher stakes in a tricky car might be fine for the track but puts a damper on spirited back road driving.

The FRS in comparison makes better power down low (still not great #torquedip) but better and crutially, as we all know, these cars are very forgiving and confidence inspiring. If you end up in a hedge in an 86 car, it was probably your own fault. The gearbox is good enough and IMO the rest of the package - looks and practicality - more than make up the difference of the S2000's advantages.

The FRS is not perfect but it offers almost everything I loved about the S and with fewer tradeoffs.

Congrats on the new car! I (as well as a lot of people who ahve posted) also used to own an S2000. However mine was the 2.4L AP2 with the lower redline.

Overall i definetly agree with a lot of what you are saying. The S2000 is definetly the faster car, but they both handle incredibly well.

I think the point you made about the BRZ handeling better might be attributed to the fact that the S2000 is incredibly prone to snap oversteer. As such the S2000 (to my knowledge) came with a staggered wheel setup to help induce some understeer and help with that issue. The AP1's (which you had) were particularly touchy. My friend who owns a 2001 AP1 experienced this first hand on an on-ramp and spun out. Luckily he just spun and stopped so no crash.

The S2000 i believe is also a even 50/50 weight distribution where the BRZ is more 54/46 (not accurate numbers). Also we run squared setup from the factory and these cars tend to slide rather than spin when pushed a little too hard. That might be what you are feeling.

I've always stated that the S2000 was the serious adult who was a no bullshit "you take that corner as perfect and as fast as you can" wherase the BRZ was the happy teen who "takes the corner sideways because it looks cool".

Either way i'd agree the BRZ is a fantastic throwback. I had the fortune to own both cars at the same time and choosing which one to drive everyday was always tough. Eventually when i can afford it i will own another S2000.

Just took my Legacy wagon to work today after a week driving only the BRZ. The Legacy felt like I was driving a school bus. Especially rolling up to a stop sign had to get used to leasurly stopping.

Picture of your new Ts?

How do you load pictures? Can I load from my phone or need to use a hosting service?

With a hosting service you can post larger, more detailed photos.
Loading into the site directly, there will be size restrictions.

Wow, only 38k miles on the S2000 after 16 years?

I recently traded my RX-8 (similar high-revving driving experience to the S2000 in a bigger package) after 13 years. Though mine had nearly 150k on the odometer. My 3rd engine was starting to have compression problems and I was just done with rotaries.

No I only had it for 6 years, sold it 10 years ago. Had a e90 M3 for 6 years after that and nothing for the last 4 years except my old Legacy wagon.

So I’m going by older memories to recall but I think I’m being accurate and honest.

The BRZ would have fit right in back in 1999 when the S2000 was released.

The main things that have occurred are things like stability control, LED headlights Bluetooth etc. but the basic car feels a lot like a new S2000 (ish).

On which car is "faster". I thought this was as close to objectively settled some time ago by Dezoris.

For those that haven't seen his vids on this subject. It's a 2-parter, please watch both videos to get a full idea of their approach and biases (it's definitely canted to the S2k, but the results were not.) Keep in mind he and his "bruh" Turbowski were snarky mofos in those days and have settled down a bit over the years in later videos.

For the test, Dezoris setup both cars to near identical WHP, tires and brakes then ran both at a track. His FR-S is supercharged using an early S/C kit that was hardly reliable.

His FR-S was faster with both drivers... by a lot...

2-3 seconds depending on the driver.

Also both drivers came into the test preferring the S2k to own as it was made from higher quality parts, and requires less modifications from a base FR-S to get track reliable performance (Remember adjusted for inflation an S2K would cost $38-$44k in 2018 depending on the model, it's a different class of car.) Dezoris talks a lot of smack about the 86, but a lot of his grief came from being an early modder and having to learn about the platform on his own dime and wrench time. Now that there are tS and PP versions of the BRZ less aftermarket modifications would be needed then when he ran his test. We also know better now what the car needs and what its' potential is so we can approach modding the car in a more efficient way.

Go to the 7:00 min mark for results from pass 1 and then 10:20 for results from pass two (where they switched drivers.)

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gluk3_otoUo"]Review | S2000 vs FRS (GT86 BRZ) Track | Part 2 of 2 - YouTube[/ame]


Still some will find a car like the S2k that feels twitchy at the limit more rewarding as it take more concentration to drive it fast. It feels fast, even if it isn't as fast as it feels. I can appreciate that as it's fun to be scared a bit. Some will find a car like the BRZ/86 that feels stable at the limit more rewarding because it better communicates its' limits and therefore can be faster and safer. I can also appreciate driving a car that doesn't feel like it's trying to kill me.

In the end, if you want to talk apples to apples about what platform is ultimately "faster" it's the 86 without a doubt given near equal power, tires, brakes and track conditions... and it's not close.

To me the BRZ tS feels more like a lighter M3 with skinny tires for handling but acceleration is more like a S2000.

I just wanted to point out as mentioned the S2000 was engineered way above the Miata reflecting its price closer to a Boxster than a Miata at the time. Miata was $20K back then in 1999, today the BRZ runs with the MX5 in price and if we subtract inflation would have been a $20K-$26K (base-tS) back in 2002.

I don’t mean to put down anything about the S2000 it was and *still is* a great car. But when I hear people say the S2000 ‘owns’ the BRZ because it has what 35 more horsepower I’m just not seeing that. To me steering feel and now more stable or controllable at the limit that means a lot to me.

Interested to hear what you think after you finish the break-in period. At 5500-7400RPM, this car becomes a totally different pony.

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts concerning the STI short shifter versus the normal shifter in the BRZ. When I ordered my car back at the end of February I opted to get the short shifter, but I've never actually driven either version (or any of the 86 cars for that matter - none around to test drive so doing a blind buy). I based the shifter decision on other cars I've driven in the past, but truthfully I don't know whether it makes a difference or not.

To be honest can’t tell anything much difference. It’s not short like what I remember with the S2000 or MX5 that I test drove a month ago. Those felt like you could shift with a flick of the wrist especially 1-2 or 3-4 shift. The BRZ even with the short shifter is definitely a bit longer. However it’s not bad, also note I’m used to having a center armrest which I plan to add so maybe with that I’ll get the wrist action feeling.

I only drove the BRZ before this 3 different times maybe 20 miles altogether and didn’t drive back to back with the short shifter so I can’t really say for sure. However it does not feel any worse at all, if I didn’t know it was short throw kit I’d think it was stock or how it was meant to be if that makes sense.

Yeah, that does help, thanks.

I know Subaru advertises the car's stock shifter as having short throws, so as you said, maybe there isn't much of a difference between the STI shifter and stock.

I did a search could not find any reviews either. I didn’t want or not want it, but it was already installed on the car so I got it. No negative from me but it’s not all that much different that I can tell.

I'll have it on my car when it comes in, but without anything to compare it to I'm just glad to know that there's nothing wrong with it either. ;)

I still make the argument that I don’t need any more power for the streets, not like I’m ever racing anyone. I’m still in the break in period and hitting 93 on the highway without even thinking about it.

Nice comparison. I've owned and loved 3 S2000's ('01, '03, & '08), and had some regrets selling the '08 until I got my '17 BRZ PP. Like many, I feel the BRZ's greatest shortcoming vs. the S2000 is the engine, w/ everything else (aside from wheels/tires, which are easily upgradeable) being better for me in the BRZ. I used to love my S2000's for twisties and track events, but hated them for daily driving. The BRZ, however, offers most of the fun of the S2000 in a daily driveable package w/ more comfort, space, and practicality.

Great initial post. I don't have much to add, other then enjoy the ride.

Most people would enjoy having....250-350 torque at their disposal, but there is a cost ( gas, plus initial purchase price...pay to play) in getting that 6cyl / V8 engine. Everyone has their own justifications for their ultimate decisions on what route/ strategy to take.

Also meant to say, I like your assessment of the time value of money. I'd say currently the last 3-5 years, trucks are off the chain price wise. Full size going for $42-60k....no problem, diesel same equipped truck even more... $60-70k no problem. That's about a 30-33% price increase, even over the last 12-13 years (say 2005 numbers).

I'd also say the twins are most likely 5-10% more fuel efficient the a S2k ( any year), which to me factors in ( especially if it's a daily driver)....just watch those 91-93 octane prices

Is this really a real factor????

I’m not really bothered about not having ‘a lot of power’ I’ve had M3 was great but I don’t really like to scare myself to death. My friend had a 650 hp Viper which killed him. I’m aware you can get into accidents with any power car but IMO slower car means slower accident or maybe missed accident altogether.

I also wanted to point out the price of the BRZ is very reasonable imo. I could have bought a 911 or Vette or Cayman did enough research to know the cost new and used. Drove a 2017 Cayman same day as I drove the BRZ. Obviously the biggest difference is the power and the interior materials. With the tS though I feel like it’s nice and planted to the road like a Cayman and to me the tS (silly wing and all) looks special. Initially I was just going to buy a BRZ limited PP but the tS looks, suspension and wheels/tires sold me.

The new Cayman with typical options cost you $70K easy, that’s twice the cost of a tS so in reality, I could buy a tS and if I wanted to buy a GTi or similar car two nice cars for the price of one. I should have done that when I bought my M3, I mean should have kept the S2000 and bought a GTi but I wouldn’t have known that the big power and price was not worth twice the cost. I’d have always wanted the V8 crazy fast car but the BRZ is fast enough for me.

The BRZ is not half the car of a Cayman, M3 or Vette but is half the price.

Sure. Efficiency is performance. Always has been, always will be.

If the S2K were to get 22mpg (rated 18/25) average, and the BRZ ( 24/33) gets 29 mpg average , that's a 7mpg difference (roughly).

If you travel 10,000 miles in a year, in that the BRZ gets 7mpg better that would yield a fuel savings of 49 gallons of gas . Say gas averages $3.30 a gallon for premium = 49g x $3.30 = $161 money saved in a year. Money you can help pay your car insurance .... or I can think of a load of other things to do with $161. Not to mention less pollutants into the atmosphere. :happyanim:

I agree.
Many Porsche aficionados don't consider the Cayman a true P-car (build in Romania .... I believe , but of course designed in Germany). Poor versatility in a Cayman. I've never driven one, but I'm sure fun to drive.

If I were to move to europe tomorrow, I'd most likely not bring a single car with me, sell my vehicles , pool my money , and buy a newer 2010+ (probably 997.1 or 997.2 series) 911 C2 or C2S over there. If there is nasty weather snow/ice , I'd consider a C4S

Great read. I am a new 86 owner and long time S2000 owner (13 years, 01 AP1 w/ 47,xxx miles). The gear box in the 86 feels similar to the S. Still breaking the 86 in.

0h. Sorry I'm late.




*crickets*




that went better than expected

There is not much of a difference in the throw distance (-4mm) but the STI shifter definitely requires a little more force to engage, but still not a definite firm click feeling like a Honda from the 90's.

If you want even more shorter throws (-8mm) then there is the TRD Japan version.