Now if I were Toyota, I'd replace the 86 with a base model Supra costing $5-10k more than the current Limited model. This has been Porsches approach for many years and maximized the production and parts aspects. The Corvette (which will be mid-engined for 2020), is also marketed this way. Again, if Toyota moves in this direction, which makes all of the sense in the world, I'm just not convinced that the BRZ could exist on its own. If it does in this circumstance, they would just continue to make minor changes and continue to depreciate plant and equipment.

Then people like me would not have even considered the car and it would not come close to competing with the MX-5. I want a few creature comforts in the car. My guess is that well over half of the BRZ buyers are like me. The hard core enthusiasts, who would want a stripped down car, would be in the extreme minority. Remember, people who inhabit forums like this are the car nuts and not the vast majority of buyers.

How "cheap" do you think the new Supra is going to be? You do know that Toyota partnered with BMW and it is being co-developed with the new Z4.

If it can't meet the sub $30K mark, it won't exist. Toyota has a much better dealer network as well, most likely the reason that 86 sales are better then the BRZ's. I have 2 Subaru dealers within 45 miles of me, one is right at the edge of that range too. There are 5 Toyota dealers in that same range.

The key here is manufacturing economies. When Subaru makes the Twins, the added volume lowers per unit cost. The same would be true for a "cheap" Supra. All large car manufacturers try to leverage "platforms". Many times you can find a very wide price range for cars with the same platform. You may market the lower cost car with a different model name, but it would be the same platform. Toyota does this very well across their brands/models. I could easily see a low cost "Supra", or whatever they might call it, going for $35-40k with the high end Supra running $50-80k.

I am well aware of manufacturing economies. I was the production manager for a company for 8 years building 3 different lines of product. I don't think at the numbers that the new Supra and Z4 are going to be produced that it will come to favor them. I think a low end would be 45k and on the high end 65k.

The twins do share a lot of other Subaru chassis parts helping driving costs down.

They are after enthusiasts that put miles on their cars. Even at my wage and my cheap cost of living, I wouldn't be buying a new toy that was around 40K to thrash on back roads, or out on the track. Hell, at 30K you can buy a used Cayman.

Lol, so it dropped a bit over $4k to make it look like some kids backyard project... I don’t think that would help US sales :D

And I managed investments in plant and equipment and decided the proper ROI levels. Sharing chassis parts is no where near as important as amortizing the investment in new production lines. Basically, if they don't share the same platform, there is little you can do with shared parts because they can't be produced on the same line.

And like I said before, you are not the typical customer -- you are in the very small minority. I doubt whether more than 5% of owners of the twins do any mods at all or autocross or track the car. Porsches are the same. I owned Porsches for 27 years and know owners well.

You misread. They would keep the current car, and add a cheaper variant. Both because the car was meant to come out at $20k originally, and because that would help sales. I'll ignore your condescension for now.

Not strip out, replace. A bunch of parts are shared with their other cars, but not all of them. Wheels, brakes, everything down there can easily be changed for what is on the base impreza, just keep the suspension points the same so all the aftermarket stuff would still fit.

They could do the same throughout the car. Steering wheel, seats, stereo, etc. While they share a lot of parts with the other cars, there are some obvious ones that are just for the 86.

Also while the engine is nice, it is just a glorified impreza engine anyways. Not sure if that would lower costs though, but if it did just use the base impreza engine.

Basically they should just make a base version of the car, use all the least expensive parts they have to cut the price.

The Impreza starts at $18,495. Surely they could take enough cost out of the 86 to lower the price to $20k. The resulting car might be more of a commuter car than a sports car, but that is what a lot of the base cars use to be anyways.

Everyone keeps talking about the Supra like it will take production or development capacity from the twins, but remember, the Supra is in a different segment. The twins are in a segment that:

1) allows them to share many parts with other cars allowing for lower production costs, and;
2) will be sold at higher volumes due to the price point, and;
3) the Twin, though a niche car, are sold in a segment where the only true competitor, is the Miata. Yes, I know the price segment is competitive, but there may be just enough buyers to justify a new gen; a small lightweight SPORTS CAR (as opposed to a hi-po hatch or V6 pony car)

Sure, the Supra will share the platform with the new BMW Z roadster, helping bring down development and production costs, but is in a seriously competitive space (think $50-80k market for sports cars - Porsche, BMW, Nissan etc.).

I do hope the Twins go on for another generation, especially if they retain the magical NA, RWD, lightweight, low priced, two-door formula.

Even replacing parts, there just isn’t the nearly $6k worth of savings needed to bring it to this magical $20k mark. The RWD layout and differences in the chassis and sheet metal account for a lot of the price difference over an Impreza. The interior is not any nicer (except the alcantara seats in the Limited trim) in the twins than an Impreza and the factory stereo in the twins is already garbage. For the smaller niche within what is already a niche market that would be satisfied with the 152 hp Impreza engine, I don’t think it would be worth the manufacturers time for the assembly line changes that would be need to install all of the alternative parts. Call it a glorified Impreza engine if you like, but it makes 53 more horsepower than in the Impreza... and too many people already complain about the 200-205 horsepower that the twins make now. We are all entitled to our opinions, but I just don’t think that swapping a few parts out for Impreza parts would lower the price enough or increase sales enough to matter when Toyota/Subaru never expected these cars to sale in mass volumes to begin with.

If anything, I'd think Toyota and Subaru want to transition into a more equipped, more expensive vehicle to make a reasonable margin if possible. I see the new Toyota 86 is $29,995 base price in Canada. When it was a Scion the base was $26K in 2012 and only went up I think $400 in 4 years. In my mind this was a result of economy of scale, since the amortized cost of factory setup would have been mostly covered and the units need to keep moving to generate revenue. Now that we have a full-fledged Toyota, the general public doesn't need to be convinced of the Scion basic philosophy and will consider a more deluxe package.

I do realize there are many on this forum who will go on how the history of most sports cars is that they evolve into bloated overweight tubs in subsequent generations. In fact, though this doesn't appease the track junkie that strips his interior, it usually attracts more customers who didn't already purchase, provides an up sell to those that did, and typically generates better margin than a stripped down basic low price point vehicle. The first generation served to establish a following that will hopefully allow the manufacturer to benefit a bit more selling the 2nd generation.

The Supra cannot replace the twins, but will provide a nice up sell to people like myself who might transition to the next exciting vehicle. The step up will be considerable, so a higher level twin could fill the gap in between and also potentially sell in significant numbers.

There is a lot of benefit that a halo car can bring to a product lineup, such as helping sell $35K well equipped twins to those that admire but cannot spend $60K + on t Supra.

There will need to be certain similarities between the Supra and the next 86. Perhaps a "hot button" or two.

Yes I have been in sales a very very long time, beginning with new cars. lol

No condescension here. I'm a car nut and have owned lots of cars and done lots of things to them. I'm just saying that the vast majority of people who buy ANY car want some creature comforts like power steering, comfortable seats, electric windows, air conditioning, a radio, bluetooth for phone, etc. These are things I removed for my track cars, but for my daily driver, I wouldn't buy a car without them. Other than that, what do your strip out of the BRZ? Tires? Wheels? There is not enough other stuff to make any real difference in price. And there is not enough volume to have significantly different models other that what they have. What you're saying just doesn't make any real world sense.

I actually agree with @rvoll ^^^^^

Even my car being mostly a toy. I don't want to give up my stereo, ac, ect. I still have to drive it to the track. Up coming event is almost 8 hours away.

2.4 turbo four? Eww. Give me a 2.4 NA six with an absurd redline :D :D :D

that stuff is basic. I'd rather have more of those features, not less. What I'm talking about is the 86 only stuff that is probably more costly. We know the 86 has bigger brakes and wheels in the USA, but not overseas. That adds useless cost. The seats are different which is also silly. The steering wheel is different and things like that.

They can easily keep the current cars as is, and add in a lower cost version below it that removes the unique items and adds in as many part bin pieces from the higher volume selling Impreza. A lot of people wouldn't miss the fancy wheels, suspension, or BRZ only items in the interior. I hope the next gen if it is real uses the same chassis as the other cars too, as that will lower cost as well.

In my opinion the biggest problem the 86 has is price. When they were first developing it one of the big things was the cost was suppose to be $20k or less, and then the Japanese Yen went nuts and that was thrown out the window. A 200 hp car is not as big a deal at $20k than it is at $26k.

That of course is the question. Only Subaru can answer that. 200 hp at $20k is better than 200 hp at $26k. And the interiors are similar, but not the same. The more exact same pieces that can be used the less expensive it can be.

And 200 hp at $15k would be even better... so? Everything that I said still applies... a factory $20k twin in the US just ain't hapenning.

I'll throw in my 2c worth of speculation.

I have a feeling they won't be able to make the next engine retain the 7400rpm redline and remain a global vehicle. As it was, they couldn't release the updated 2017 engine in certain markets due to issues meeting emissions standards in those markets. It seems all car models started after 2015 that have a redline above 7000 RPM are either available in limited markets or are in upscale vehicles to begin with. Even Honda, previously known for making high revving NA motors switched to making low revving turbo motors. I think even the new Civic Type-R only goes up to 7000 RPM. The new ND Miata remained NA but also lowered it's redline to a benign 6500.

I think it's impossible for this car to retain it's current position without being turbo in the next generation, expecting Civic SI numbers of around 210hp with 6500 redline and possibly the FA24 will be an option for 260hp.

Smaller brakes/wheels and lesser cost seats brings the price down about $400 max. The major upgrade cost are in the exact items you want more of. In fact, power seats alone would add at least $300 to the price. Again, what you're saying makes little sense. The only way to bring the price down is to produce as many Twins as Civics or Camrys. It is the limited production runs and lack of economy of scale that raises the price of the car. And current volumes are even lower than they've been in the past as performance CUV's continue to grow.

I would have bought a GT86 RC if they were available in the states. So that makes one person. lol. However, I also tried to buy my car without a warranty....(they didn't let me).....so I may be an abnormal consumer.

I think the next gen needs to keep the cost around 30k. IMHO, the twins aren't worth any more than that and they aren't supposed to be. The second they started adding luxuries like hill assist and auto-leveling headlights and all that nonsense they lost the ideal of this car. Which was cheap, lightweight, no frills fun. Like a newer version of a 90's-2000s rwd sports car.

I hope they give us a truly stripped down version of the next gen. I don't think this is the popular opinion but it is what drew me to buying a twin. I am not against having a "Premium package". Just make sure there is a cheap gt86 RC edition for all of the people that don't care about sound deadening and stereo systems.

Then again, all of those luxuries are signs of the times. I just might be the crazy one.

The twins still have a base price well below $30k with the auto-leveling headlights and hill assist... both of which add no weight to the car and don’t take anything away from the “ideal” of this car. So here we are again with talk of a “stripped down” twin... what exactly do you think they could strip out that would make a significant difference in price and weight that wouldn’t make the car look like some kid just ripped out interior pieces in his backyard (which of course anybody is welcome to buy a base trim and do their self)?

economies of scale can lower the price, exactly. They are never ever going to sell many twins, no matter how many they produce. 2 door cars just do not sell, even camaros and mustangs sales are dropping.

The only way they can ever have any scaling with the twins is by wholesale use of impreza parts. They do a lot of that already, but they could easily do more. Whether or not they could do enough to make a huge difference is something no one outside of subaru or toyota could say.

Not true... i've done many corporate ROI's on production/manufacturing lines over my career and can tell you that the things you mentioned just don't affect costs substantially. The reason for this is that you choose parts suppliers who already have economies of scale for their particular parts. Computer aided designs and robotics make the cost differences between even slightly different designs small. Again, parts suppliers already have economies of scale with modern manufacturing techniques. It is the stuff that Subaru does on its assembly lines that really make a difference. Shared platforms amortize cost differences substantially because then each line begins to have economies of scale. Given that the Twins are the only car in the Subaru line-up to have 2 wheel drive makes economies with other platforms virtually impossible. The other factor driving down costs is to have enough volume to have manufacturing plants close to the point of sale. That's why many foreign companies produce their cars here in the states.

Not totally sure about this as governments have realized that small turbo engines don't run cleaner or save fuel in real world conditions. It's just that manufacturers have an easier time manipulating them to get better numbers. Downsizing is on its way out and rightsizing is coming in.

According to your previous post the price was dropped 4k for a bare bones GT86 RC. That is a starting price of 22k. That is a considerable amount for all of the things I (and many others) just got rid of or replaced. It also weights 132 lbs less. Like I said in my previous post, I may be the crazy one, but I would have bought an RC no questions asked.

Not necessarily true. Plenty of cars come with a RWD/AWD option. You just need a different transmission and front subframe. The tranny is already outsourced from Aisin, Subaru could easily platform share the twins with the WRX.

Nissan used the same platform for the 350Z, G35, FX. That platform supported RWD, AWD, A V6, A V8, and was eventually adapted for the current GTR.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

yep!
Subaru has said they will make all of their vehicles on the new platform by 2021. That means everything from the Forester to the new and yet unnamed plug in EV will all use it. Platform sharing does not mean that the final cars have to be the same.
The Lancer, the Jeep Compass, Dodge Caliber and Chrysler 200 shared a platform and they are not even remotely the same set ups. In the 80s the Fox platform was used for the Mustang the LTD and the Thunderbird which again are radically different. For over a decade Chrysler built almost everything on the K platform. Something like 80 (or more?) different vehicles used it.
Same "platform" does not mean that each chassis is identical just that it uses the same basic set up and parts. Floor pans, drive setups, engines and many other aspects can be totally different.

But you need a platform that accommodates both. Do you really see that in the current platform? In addition, all of the Nissan models you named were designed as rear wheel drive while the WRX was designed as front wheel drive. That basic design makes a huge difference in platform. Adding AWD to a car with FWD only is drastically different than adding AWD to a RWD car.

I repeat!
Platforms are much more versatile than being restricted to one drive set up.

Next Gen BRZ/86!
 

The WRX is set up as AWD. It has never been FWD. The BRZ suspension components are already shared with the WRX. You could make a WRX RWD by just replacing the transmission and thus moving the engine back a bit, since the BRZ tranny is shorter because of the missing transaxle. Add the BRZ front spindles and boom. RWD WRX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My post was just using a currency converter and plugging in the values that yoshoobaroo gave us. The prices that they are able to squeeze out of a fugly model like that overseas don't really apply to the US, so it would be over $22k in the US even if they were to offer it like that... which still isn't your magical $20k number.

Mitsubishi sold a RS Evolution in America that was very similar to the idea of the stripped RC 86. It was stripped of a lot of basic options like air conditioning and they were able to sell it for $3,200 less than the standard Evo.

You make it sound like a RC 86 in the US isn't feasible, but I don't think I agree. Now would Toyota ever go through the extra effort to offer such a car? Probably not.

I think what is messing with people's heads is the interpretation of the term "platform". They think that means it is a common chassis or structure with a different body plopped on top of it when that isn't even close to the reality.

I struggled on how to describe it but Wikipedia does a pretty good job:
"A car platform is a shared set of common design, engineering, and production efforts, as well as major components over a number of outwardly distinct models and even types of cars, often from different, but related marques."

When viewed from this definition it is easier to understand how so many different cars can share a platform even though they can be radically different.

What makes you think that Subaru has a common platform now and it didn't have one in the past?

Knowledge. They used several different platforms before even though a couple of models did indeed share some but the 17 Impreza is the new global for all of their vehicles. You can read all about it in the Subaru website.

Share some? The majority of their model line was based on the Impreza platform. They are a small company and they couldn't afford doing it differently. Maybe they are trying now to share more components, but it is not something new to them. They are doing this for more than a decade. All this about the "global" platform is more a way to modernize their communication language and make their shareholders happy. Are you maybe a shareholder? Sometimes you seem to me too dumb or just trying to hide reality. :b

Well first off I read back and can't see where I ever said they didn't use a couple of standard platforms in the past. Some were Legacy based and some Impreza and a couple were stand alones. What I said was that ALL vehicles are going to the one NEW platform. If you think it is all just hype for the share holders you are almost as foolish as some goof that thinks they could get a 6% increase in acceleration from a light weight pulley. The new global platform and all that it means is extremely well documented so I am not sure what version of reality you favour.

Not sure where you got 20k. I said I hope they keep it under 30k. And you were the one that told me it was 4k less. and this article says it was 5,500 less. lol. Anyway, I hope they keep the next gen cheap and maybe give us a stripped down version. That is all.

You will never ever ever see a stripped down version in the USA. Other than a hand full of guys on a forums they just would not sell enough to warrant it. It would be a sub niche of an already tight niche vehicle. Not sure but I think they even dropped the stripped version in Japan.

So, is turbo coming?

I really don't understand how you avid Subaru fans believe that the BRZ/86 will be a part of the "global platform". Here's a quote from an industry review article:

"As he explained the details behind the car, it became clear that the seemingly excessive budget was not just for the Impreza. A sizable chunk of change was actually dedicated to creating the company’s all-new Subaru Global Platform (SGP) that will underpin every model, including the Impreza for the next decade. That includes the Legacy, Outback, Forester, WRX, XV as well as electric and hybrid models. The rear-drive BRZ coupe of course will incorporate its own bespoke chassis, co-developed with Toyota."

The global platform includes all wheel drive as a mandatory component....

So unless the 2020 BRZ is an all wheel drive model with more comfort and increased safety, as the new platform requires, and remains low volume, then the price will rise significantly into the mid-30's to low 40's arena. They have to amortize the billion dollars spent on the new platform in any event.