With the same compression ratio, you'd go from 156 lb-ft to ~185 lb-ft without changing much if anything. Yay, torques!
Should be able to get to 240+hp with bigger valves (8mm larger bore gives a lot of room for that) along with modestly bigger ports, intake runners, header tubes, and throttle body. It's not rocket surgery...

It's not rocket surgery, but all these are new developments and don't forget the new engine does not use the D4S system. Should they use this technology or not?

Really, these are very minor changes...

I wouldn't think there's much if anything in the mechanical design of the engine that should prevent or hinder implementation of D4S. Nothing about the bottom end should affect it. If Ascent's cylinder heads are different then go with an evolution of the FA20's heads.

All that said, I will not be surprised if they stick with the 2.0. But a 2.4 with minor tweaks would be sweeet...

I agree.

D4S depends on if Toyota is on board. If they're not, probably no twin.

WE are lucky to have the Lexus dual injection in our cheap sports cars.

A NA version of the FA24 is my bet. 12.5/1-13/1 CR, ~7400 RPM redline and PI/DI. 245hp 185lb*ft, maybe 200 lb*ft if they use a variable runner length intake manifold.


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Toyota and Subaru will part their ways. Toyota will go with Supra only. New Subaru BRZ will be a faster one with >$40K sticker. Let's see if Jalopnik will pick this up.

Yup

While I agree potentially with this, sales for the 86 in 2017 in the U.S. was 6846 while the BRZ was only 4131. As a comparison, the Toyota Camry sold 387,081 units in the U.S. And the Outback sold 188,186 units. Thus, it makes total sense that Toyota and Subaru will part ways. Toyota sales for the 86 so far this year have really gone down the tubes (technical term) even more than the BRZ. Toyota is not pushing the 86 and if you compare the features of the 86 versus the BRZ this year, you'll see that Toyota didn't put any effort into the yearly update. For example, the new BRZ has Android Auto/Carplay and the Toyota doesn't. When I went to the Toyota dealership to look at the 86 just a month ago, they were not even aware (and this is the new car manager) of the 86 GT model. They didn't even have any literature on it and had to call the region hq.

So the big issue here is what Subaru is going to do with the BRZ. My guess is that it will be a minor update to compete better with the MX-5, i.e., a little sleeker design, more amenities, more sound deadening, some engine enhancements, but no major structural or driveline changes.

Sometimes I believe that both companies are using the internet to create some discussion about the platform. They say that there is no smoke without fire and all these discussions might reflect ideas that are flying now internally. They said many times that they want to listen the users over all the world. If they could go with a bigger NA engine, it would give them an advantage that others don't have. It is a rarity to offer nowadays an NA engine. If they could push the 2.4lt in the 240-250hp range, then they would have a BIG advantage. However, I think that there isn't any decision yet.

A niche car like this was never intended to be sold in high numbers - though for what this car is, the numbers are solid. Lots of part-sharing between the two brands is how the brands can actually make money off them.

And the R&D that went into it also leads to parts for their high production number cars. The new Impreza using the BRZ steering is a great example of that.

If they are going to pick that up please make the rumor be an H6 for the BRZ

OH COME ON DON'T DO THAT! DON'T MAKE ME WISH FOR THAT KNOWING IT WON'T HAPPEN!


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[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkyficAs18Q"]BRZ FLAT 6 SWAPPED HIGH REVVING !!! - YouTube[/ame]



:party0030::party0030::party0030:

Scion
FR-S
2017 6.846
2016 7.457
2015 10.507
2014 14.062
2013 18.327
2012 11.417


Subaru
BRZ
2017 4.131
2016 4.141
2015 5.296
2014 7.504
2013 8.587
2012 4.144

These are the current sales numbers... 2018 is even worse.

Thanks. We've never seen these before.

I think it's a real response to someonetalking about how much more brzs sell than the 86.

Partially true, but it is not clear whether Toyota will continue this collaboration -- and they sell more than the BRZ. With the numbers dropping, and 2018 significantly less, will there still be the volume to warrant any major upgrades? Personally, I hope the collaboration continues, but I don't know what will stem the decline, especially as compact SUV's get more performance oriented. Toyota is a much larger brand and therefore the share of 86's to total Toyota sales is much less than the BRZ is to total Subaru sales. And that's how corporate decisions are made. Toyota has 3 times the number of dealerships than Subaru. And Subaru is a growing brand other than the BRZ. Niche products still need to make money. Making minor changes means no significant retooling so that's what makes sense financially.

Kinda screws the marketing guys over (86 x 86 and all)!

Now post the sales numbers for cars like the 370z, Miata, and Fiat 124.

The 370Z sold at least 5 units this year.


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According to the latest insider rumor the Z won't even be replaced after 370z production ends.

Makes sense, it's in a totally dead segment. In 2003 it had a 25-30hp advantage on the mustang GT, now it's down 130 horses to the Ford. It's heavier than it should be and the build quality isn't there for how expensive it is. It either needs to become a muscle at, or come downmarket to compete with the Miata and the 86, neither of which can be done with minor upgrades, which is all Nissan wants to spend R&D on.


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Exactly! Sales numbers for one make and model do not show a thing.
In fact sales numbers alone are almost meaningless unless we know what the business plan said they wanted to make and how many they actually did. If they planned to, and actually made, 8,000 86s and sold 6,846 that is a success. If they planned to, and actually made, 20,000 86s and sold 6,846 that is a horrible failure. Unless somebody is privy to the plan and the actual units made the sales are not a good indicator of success.


Let's play the sales numbers game for last month just for laughs though.
Looks to me that if we base the future of each model on sales numbers then the Miata should be gone soon and BMW might as well just pack in most of their models.

Makes sense, it's in a totally dead segment. In 2003 it had a 25-30hp advantage on the mustang GT, now it's down 130 horses to the Ford. It's heavier than it should be and the build quality isn't there for how expensive it is. It either needs to become a muscle at, or come downmarket to compete with the Miata and the 86, neither of which can be done with minor upgrades, which is all Nissan wants to spend R&D on.


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Nissan is a sh!t company in general.

They cheap out in so many areas yet charge the same or more than their competitors.

My son bought a G35 and I hate that thing. So many little areas where Infinity went cheap.

I was looking at the new Q60 Red Sport 400 but wrote that thing off real quick.
It is expensive, has a cheap interior with severely outdated electronics, and saw a video review where they put it on a lift and you could see how cheaply the underbody of the car was. White paste just thrown all over the place.

Next Gen BRZ/86!
 

Thanks! Those numbers sure show a pretty even field!

86/BRZ is keeping up nicely with the Miata, which is a much newer car and has a much bigger cult following. The demand is there, people are buying these cars. If tiny Mazda can justify an all new platform every generation with these sakes numbers, so can Subaru.


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You can go back through the months and see that the sales of pretty much all "sporty" cars have dropped dramatically across the board in the last two years. The FRS/BRZ have actually held their ground far better than the majority of the list. Nothing to panic over but certainly shows that you need to look at all the numbers and not just one subset.

They're really not half bad. And from a marketing and branding perspective, both companies benefit from a platform like this.

I think that a next gen brz/gt86 with an updated motor will see some decent sales, and might attract buyers who thought the cars were too slow.

In many conversations with my dealer sales staff I have found that they have lost sales to many of the John and Jane driving public because during a test drive they accidentally kicked the rear out and scared themselves. For every sale that they gain from more power they will lose one for another average person that the car scares. There simply are not enough "enthusiasts" to go around for all the available cars. Without those "normal" buyers no car model will survive. The beauty of the Mustang is that they make many different power levels to appeal to many different groups. People always seem to focus on the high powered top levels but they represent about 2% of Mustang sales and are not what keeps it alive. If they really wanted to increase sales of the Twins (which I strongly doubt)they would need to offer at least two power levels to appease each group. That is not likely to happen. If they did offer a higher power engine it would push the price up to a point where the people that now complain about no power would just start saying "well I can get a Porsche for that" and still not buy. More power is not the answer to more sales contrary to what a vocal group would have us think.

While I agree with everything you've said, over the last few years, Subaru has de-emphasized "performance" cars. It looks like the next WRX will be fatter and plusher as that is what the majority of customers want. Looking at Subaru's development over the last few years, it sure looks like they are moving away from these performance cars and more towards safe, family, 4 wheel drive vehicles with good resale value. If that is the Subaru image of the future, it does not bode well for any major changes in the BRZ. I just purchased a new 2018 BRZ and I did test both it and the 86. It looked like Subaru wanted to make the BRZ look good and Toyota didn't care and just did the minimal. Remember, Toyota sells more 86's than Subaru sells BRZ's. Therefore, what's important here is what Toyota does with the 86 and not what is done to the BRZ.

Subaru and Toyota know this is a niche car and it isn't going to sell the most units. They are capitalizing on a market where the only other car is the Miata. I think the car will stay true to form, or it will not exist at all.

Most people here won't even look the BRZ, because they have more money and will go for the Porsche's. However, these people don't really know and it is more about placing their money somewhere and have a better prestige than really driving their car. I was also looking to the Porsche's as my next "project" car and I said "it doesn't worth it". It is a very closed platform, you need to invest much more money to modify, maintenance is silly expensive and the results not that impressive. Tim Schrick who is local and he is also with the Subaru team in Nurburgring 24h owns two BRZs! One dedicated for racing and one for private usage. He has many other cars in his private collection, but basically classic ones. He should know better ...

if they really wanted more sales they would strip the car to the bone. Both for weight but more for cost. Put in a lower level that has more parts from the base impreza, including the engine, the brakes, the wheels, etc. The less expensive they can make a starter version of the car the more they can sell.

Next Gen BRZ/86!
 

Keep in mind that the Twins' chief engineer, Tetsuya Tada, is from Toyota. A lot of the hardware is Subaru or Subaru derived, but direction comes from Toyota. Tada also heads the Supra development. He's back as chief engineer for the 2nd gen 86 and I'm sure gets direction from Akio Toyoda. Akio recently made them significantly revise the Supra chassis setup quite late in the development because he didn't think it was exciting enough to drive.


I think this is accurate. They already have a plushier, bigger sports car in the upcoming Supra. The 86 will stay relatively hardcore like the first gen, or perish in the shadow of the Supra altogether.


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Over the last few years??? Performance cars have never been Subaru’s primary image or concern, just more of a side project just like most non-prestige brands. Neither Toyota nor Subaru sell enough 86s or BRZs (nor did they think they would sell them in numbers anywhere close to their family vehicle models) to make these vehicles very high on their priority list. If Subaru is able to continue to grow and thrive from the sales of their family oriented vehicles, that will only give them more money to potentially invest in future performance vehicle side projects... they will never thrive based on the niche market that buys cars like the BRZ.
While Toyota has sold more 86s than Subaru has sold BRZs, Toyota is a much higher volume seller of ALL of their models of vehicles than Subaru... so I’m fairly certain that the BRZ actually makes up a higher percentage of Subaru’s total sales than the 86 does of Toyota’s total sales. Subaru is growing rapidly but they are still nowhere near the volume of Toyota.

What more do you think they could strip out compared to the base model twins (which are already pretty sparsely equipped compared to most any other car) that would make any significant difference in price? It’s not like they could ever make these cars cheap enough to compete on price with something like a base model civic.

Next Gen BRZ/86!
 

The GT86 RC cut the price down to 1.9 millionYen from 2.41 million and lost 100 lbs compared to the base US model:
Steel wheels, unpainted bumpers, cheaper interior, no exhaust tips, etc. The dash trim is straight up missing 🤣

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