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-   Suspension | Chassis | Brakes -- Sponsored by 949 Racing (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=59)
-   -   AP Racing brake systems in development (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12608)

D1cker 11-16-2012 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paragon (Post 559781)
So has anyone tried these brakes on PRF1 17x9 +35 instead of the +45? Otherwise what size spacer did people with the 9+45 have to go with for it to work?

You'll need a 3-5mm spacer for the +35 RPF1's

(I have the 17x9 +35 and the template just barely touches the spokes)

Paragon 11-16-2012 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D1cker (Post 561132)
You'll need a 3-5mm spacer for the +35 RPF1's

(I have the 17x9 +35 and the template just barely touches the spokes)

There goes the track set up. Anyone running 9 inch wide wheels without spacers with this brake setup?

coyote 11-16-2012 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRitt (Post 560342)
The next thing you know, someone will drop a bombshell on me, and tell me that there are people who not only sit on the wrong side of the car, they also drive on the wrong side of the road!;)



I'm sure you saw plenty ... on your way to work.

:burnrubber:

Dave-ROR 11-16-2012 06:41 PM

Initial Review/Opinion of the Essex Competition Sprint Brake kit:
One of the items I laughed off when Matt posted his review was how noticable the reduction of 20lbs of unsprung weight is up front. I've changed to lighter wheels before (but often going with bigger tires which offset some of the weight savings, or in the BRZ's case actually resulted in a net GAIN of weight) and I have never noticed ANY difference in how the car felt or performed. This WAS noticable though. I was shocked that it was noticable because I've always put it off as placebo in the past based on my experiences before with lighter weight components but I noticed it here even after I already discounted it and wasn't even looking for it. The increase in steering feel is welcome as the wider tires did deaden it a little (not much, it still had more feel than my S2000 did IMO). I haven't noticed any difference in turn in like Matt did but that's probably just my insensitivity to it.

Pedal feel:
About the same as stock when cold. When hot, the pedal doesn't change much like it did stock. Also the noise/feel (a loud clank/smack in my case) that I had at Sebring with the stock components (using ATE Super Blue and XP10/XP8 pads) was gone. You can feel ABS (and maybe EBD, the pedal does some weird stuff at times, but I'm not use to fancy technology in my track cars...) more easily if you have plenty of traction but with reduced traction I wouldn't feel it until after they locked. That was the same as stock though.

How they feel on track:
The C300 pads have a decent amount of initial bite, but they aren't crazy like Hawk Blues and other pads that have pretty high levels of bite. On the other hand that makes them very progressive in my opinion. You can easily modulate the pedal on track to get whatever you want out of them. They come back off the rotor smoothly also. I'm a pretty hard braker though :) Either way the progressive nature and smoothness in application/pedal lift is nice. With the C300 front and XP8 (not an essex suggested setup btw) the car still has too much front bias. That's not surprising given the difference in coefficient of friction between the C300 and XP8s. This continues to hurt the ability to trail brake the car. Once the C300 rears ship I'll be able to see if equal pads front and rear solves that problem. Overall the car was very stable under braking with only a touch of twitchy behavior in heavy braking where the rear end didn't seem to be slowing down enough (I say that versas other explanations because it didn't happen with less agressive front pads). More agressive rear pads should at least fix that issue.

Track Video:
To avoid posting the video in another thread, I'll just post the link that you can follow to see the video if you want: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=163

How they've held up so far:
So far I've only done about 900 miles combined street and track driving with the brakes installed. About ~130 miles of that is on Sebring. Basically about 110 minutes of hot laps and about 30 minutes of slow standing yellow laps. So far they've held up to the heat of track use *flawlessy*. They stop every time, without change in feel or effectiveness thus far. I can drive off track after 30 minutes of turning laps and the brakes are NOT smoking like the stock ones were after similar usage. No boiling fluid, no ripping the face off the rotor, etc. I was braking much later on Sebring than I was before because I actually had confidence that the brakes were going to do their job EVERY time.

Consumables:
Pads:
I'm currently using the AP C300 front pads. These things are LOUD on the street by the way so when/if you buy this kit GET SOME STREET PADS ALSO! FWIW, the AP S100 pads also make some noise on the street so if you want it to be completely silent I'd suggest talking to @JRitt about other street pads that will be more mild than the AP S100 pads. Anyways, back to the C300s. Below are some pics of the pads after the usage they've had so far, the crumbling on the edge of the pads isn't anything to be concerned with. I am getting some minor cracking closer to the backing plates that I am monitoring for now. Jeff Ritter will actually see the pads in person next month as I'm stopping by Essex to say Hi on the way to a friends shop in Charlotte.

http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0080.jpg
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0081.jpg
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0082.jpg

So far I've experienced about 1mm of pad wear on the trailing edges and about 2mm of pad wear on the leading edges. The worst pad experienced 3mm of pad wear on the leading edge (it was the only one), as seen below:
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0079.jpg

Here's a new S100 next to the used C300:
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0078.jpg

Pads in the calipers before removal:
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0074.jpg
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0077.jpg

So, it's looking good so far! For comparison I used at LEAST 5-6mm on Carbotech XP10s with similar usage plus an extra 30 minutes or so at Mid Ohio (where I wasn't pushing much) and a lot more street mileage, which kills rotors well before track pads.

Rotors:
I didn't measure the rotors, but they appear to have virtually no wear. There are no lips, uneven wear, grooving, etc. And unlike my OEM rotors, no surface delamination either :)

Passenger Side:
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0071.jpg
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0072.jpg

Driver Side:
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0075.jpg
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0076.jpg


Ease of install/maintenance:
I could have posted this in the original post when I installed everything but I wanted to wait until I had some usage and a pad change completed before doing so. The install itself was VERY easy. I was able to do it myself (minus the bleeding part) in a few hours taking my time and including the installation of extended studs in the front (off the car using a press, etc). It's really as easy as the instructions say. I basically did both sides at the same time instead of one side at a time so I wouldn't have to keep switching tools/sockets as often, but either that or doing one side at a time shouldn't change the install time too much. Changing pads was also easy, I just put a bleed tube on the outer bleeding screw attached to a bottle, removed one pad, loosened the bleeder, used two old pads to force those pistons back in (pushing excess fluid into the bleed hose), installed new pad on that side, repeated for the second pad, closed bleeder, reinstalled bridge/bolt/nut and cleaned up excess fluid at the bleeder. Repeat for the second side. One note that I think Matt (or someone else) pointed out, the outer bleeder is somewhat annoying to use. It's not impossible with a fairly standard box end wrench but an extra 2mm of clearance would make it a MUCH easier task. All in all that's not a big deal and it works fine. Oh and yes, I'll bleed them before going back on track since I had the bleeder open, even though no air should be able to enter in theory.. I'd bleed them again anyways before tracking it again.

Next brake upgrades:
I'm currently using the OEM lines, I'll be installing the Spiegler SS lines on all 4 corners before my next HPDE (which is December 2nd at Atlanta Motorsports Park). Hopefully I'll also have C300 pads to start running in the rear before that event.

Noise:
Besides the pad noise under braking (which varies with pads and applies to all brake systems), you will occasionally notice the pads moving around which results in a "click". This usually only happens in reverse when you apply the brakes. Sometimes it happens over bumps. It's just the pads moving around a bit and is nothing to be concerned about. Some of the street kits will use anti-rattle solutions to prevent that so if a little noise is a concern for you I'd look at one of the more street oriented kits. I stress that it's very minor noise and only happens under those specific circumstances.

Conclusion:
As I've stated a few times here before.. I was wrong when I thought the stock brakes would be fine for track use. They simply can't handle the heat this car is somehow generating up front. How this is happening is beyond my comprehension but it is occuring regardless. We do need bigger heatsinks up front and this kit does a great job of doing so while making so many other improvements it's a no brainer for me. I'm one of those who would prefer a kit like this to a massive 14" rotor, 6 piston setup. This is a light setup that handles track duties wonderfully, loses 20lbs total unsprung weight up front, has cheaper front pads than stock, allows me to use many 17" wheels, some with spacers some without, and has what should be longer consumables lifespan to boot. I have had no regrets about buying the BRZ, and I've had no regrets about upgrading to these brakes either.

Dave-ROR 11-16-2012 06:51 PM

Oh and one last pic, just for the bling lugnuts that are now on the car lol I hate the color of these things but I do like that they cover the entire stud..
http://www.itrexpo.com/users/dave/brz/IMG_0088.jpg

Hanakuso 11-16-2012 07:04 PM

Great review. I'll probably throw a review together in a month or so. It will be coming from a noobs perspective tho :D

Btw, did the yellow lettering fade or discolor?

Dave-ROR 11-16-2012 08:45 PM

Not that I've noticed. It is covered in brake dust though.

Matt Andrews 11-19-2012 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paragon (Post 561172)
There goes the track set up. Anyone running 9 inch wide wheels without spacers with this brake setup?

yes. I am. the Mach V 17x9 fits fine and weighs under 18 lbs.

Dave-ROR 11-19-2012 05:19 PM

Has anyone looked to see how large of spacers we'll need to clear OEM wheels? I never bring an OEM wheel with me to check...

Hanakuso 11-19-2012 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 565425)
Has anyone looked to see how large of spacers we'll need to clear OEM wheels? I never bring an OEM wheel with me to check...

I used the template and it seems to be around 5mm. Not 100% but its around that.

I'm hoping my 20mm or 25mm spacers will work with the spare tire or else I'll have to deal with fix-a-flat cans

Dave-ROR 11-19-2012 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanakuso (Post 565467)
I used the template and it seems to be around 5mm. Not 100% but its around that.

I'm hoping my 20mm or 25mm spacers will work with the spare tire or else I'll have to deal with fix-a-flat cans

Nice! I might just buy 10mm spacers just to be safe. I just carry one or two of the OEM wheels with me instead of using the OEM spare :) Well that's if I'm doing a road trip, around town I'll just deal with it however I need to.

Dave-ROR 11-20-2012 10:28 AM

For those with this setup, can you post which wheels fit and with which spacers if needed?

For me I'm using the obvious one 17x8 +45 RPF1s no spacers.

UncleFester 11-20-2012 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 566597)
For those with this setup, can you post which wheels fit and with which spacers if needed?

For me I'm using the obvious one 17x8 +45 RPF1s no spacers.

Same. I did discover that the 17x9 version does not fit with either kit.

CSG Mike 11-20-2012 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 565425)
Has anyone looked to see how large of spacers we'll need to clear OEM wheels? I never bring an OEM wheel with me to check...

It'll barely clear with a 5mm. 7mm would be safer to account for any possible expansion during use.


On a side note, we're looking into some Rays options that'll clear the kit... :)

JRitt 11-20-2012 10:55 AM

FYI...we're doing a special Black Friday deal on the Endurance System this weekend if anyone is interested. Definitely don't expect to see this again any time soon! Thanks.:thumbsup:

MSTiFK8R 11-20-2012 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UncleFester (Post 566610)
Same. I did discover that the 17x9 version does not fit with either kit.


17x9 is oа some wheels NOT APPLICABLE? which ET was that?

I hope the Endurance System will be safe with RAYS 18" Gram Light 57xtremes FRONT 18x8.5 +33, the spokes seem so wide there

as I can't measure them yet, It's a matter of luck by now... I've asked some guys having access to these pretties to use Essex's fitment template to make sure

http://www.rays-msc.com/wheels/img/145-1-151445.jpg

Mike

Dave-ROR 11-20-2012 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSTiFK8R (Post 566640)
17x9 is oа some wheels NOT APPLICABLE? which ET was that?

I hope the Endurance System will be safe with RAYS 18" Gram Light 57xtremes FRONT 18x8.5 +33, the spokes seem so wide there

as I can't measure them yet, It's a matter of luck by now... I've asked some guys having access to these pretties to use Essex's fitment template to make sure


Mike

The Enkei RPF1 17x9's specifically won't fit due to the design of the spokes, even in +35. However other 17x9s like the Mach V Awesome's fit fine. Spoke design is key here.

MSTiFK8R 11-22-2012 07:26 AM

Jeff, hulllooooooow

PM ring-a-ding !

Hanakuso 11-26-2012 04:02 PM

Jeff or anyone else, are you expecting anymore AP Racing pads for this kit or the OEM rear? I've been reading up and it seems there is a AP Racing H200. It's less aggressive then the C300 and cheaper. I'm just not sure what to match up the rear with the C300, other then the upcoming C300 rear pads

Dave-ROR 11-26-2012 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanakuso (Post 575537)
Jeff or anyone else, are you expecting anymore AP Racing pads for this kit or the OEM rear? I've been reading up and it seems there is a AP Racing H200. It's less aggressive then the C300 and cheaper. I'm just not sure what to match up the rear with the C300, other then the upcoming C300 rear pads

They are making C300 and S100's for OEM rear fitment, but I don't believe that they have been released yet. At least I don't have mine yet :) Hopefully they'll come in this week or first half of next week and I'll just pick them up at Essex next week.

CSG David 11-26-2012 07:45 PM

The Essex AP Racing BBK is pretty ridiculous. I don't think the brake pads were even bedded in properly on a heavy braking track. I must give props to Essex for developing such a monster brake kit that actually works quite well with the factory braking system. :)

mines13 11-26-2012 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 575547)
They are making C300 and S100's for OEM rear fitment, but I don't believe that they have been released yet. At least I don't have mine yet :) Hopefully they'll come in this week or first half of next week and I'll just pick them up at Essex next week.

The S100s for the rear are out. I have them in my car as we speak. :thumbsup:

JRitt 11-27-2012 09:50 AM

Quote:

Jeff or anyone else, are you expecting anymore AP Racing pads for this kit or the OEM rear? I've been reading up and it seems there is a AP Racing H200. It's less aggressive then the C300 and cheaper. I'm just not sure what to match up the rear with the C300, other then the upcoming C300 rear pads
The AP Racing S100 pads in the OEM rear shape are here and shipping. The AP Racing C300 pads are in transit and should ship before the end of the week. I know we held a couple of the orders that had both compounds, to consolidate the shipments.

Finally, the front AP Racing S100's for the Sprint System are also due in tomorrow or Wednesday.

So if you any of the AP Racing pads on back order, you should have them next week. Thanks for your patience!

As for the H200 compound, we pulled that one from the lineup to simplify things. My recommendation would be to run the Ferodo DS2500 if you're looking for a light duty race / autoX pad. The other option would be the CL Brakes RC5+. Those are both excellent choices. They will squeal a bit on the street, but they are livable IMO.

Hanakuso 11-27-2012 01:48 PM

I got up to step #7 and realized I misplaced my 10mm hex socket so i'll finish it up tonight. Instructions are extremely easy to read and understand. One small question, how much torque should I apply for the pad retention bolt? I'm guessing it's not too important but thought I should ask.

They look so pretty I don't want to use them :drool:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y42...B81833B8B9.jpg

JoeBoxer 11-27-2012 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mines13 (Post 576022)
The S100s for the rear are out. I have them in my car as we speak. :thumbsup:

Thinking about getting those front and rear when it's time for brakes or i feel the need to upgrade, how is the noise on the street?

Hanakuso 11-27-2012 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 577331)
Thinking about getting those front and rear when it's time for brakes or i feel the need to upgrade, how is the noise on the street?

I believe Dave-ROR has them. I dont recall him mentioning anything about any noise tho

mines13 11-27-2012 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 577331)
Thinking about getting those front and rear when it's time for brakes or i feel the need to upgrade, how is the noise on the street?

The 300s are LOUD. I have the 100s for the front on the way, it is pretty bad on the street. That said, the brake kit fits and feels amazing. With the 100 in the front I have little doubt it will be excellent for aggressive daily use with quick pad swaps for track days.

Dave-ROR 11-27-2012 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanakuso (Post 577324)
I got up to step #7 and realized I misplaced my 10mm hex socket so i'll finish it up tonight. Instructions are extremely easy to read and understand. One small question, how much torque should I apply for the pad retention bolt? I'm guessing it's not too important but thought I should ask.

They look so pretty I don't want to use them :drool:

11 lbs-ft (14.9nm)

Bleeders are 12.5 lbs-ft per AP Racing.

Dave-ROR 11-27-2012 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeBoxer (Post 577331)
Thinking about getting those front and rear when it's time for brakes or i feel the need to upgrade, how is the noise on the street?

The S100 makes noise also, but they are livable. The C300s are NOT livable on the street. C300 = frieght train brakes, S100 = a lot less, but still low speed squeal. The S100s are still an agressive street/light duty track pad. Jeff likely has other options for a completely silent street pad, he offered for me to try something else but I don't mind the noise from the S100s.

Dave-ROR 11-27-2012 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mines13 (Post 577423)
The 300s are LOUD. I have the 100s for the front on the way, it is pretty bad on the street. That said, the brake kit fits and feels amazing. With the 100 in the front I have little doubt it will be excellent for aggressive daily use with quick pad swaps for track days.

This is accurate :)

Hanakuso 11-27-2012 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 577477)
The S100 makes noise also, but they are livable. The C300s are NOT livable on the street. C300 = frieght train brakes, S100 = a lot less, but still low speed squeal. The S100s are still an agressive street/light duty track pad. Jeff likely has other options for a completely silent street pad, he offered for me to try something else but I don't mind the noise from the S100s.

Jeff gave me a great deal on the Hawk HPS to hold me over till the S100 come in stock. I'm guessing they will be dead silent since I know a few people that run these on other cars and they don't make noise. Although I'm not planning on using the grease

Dave-ROR 11-28-2012 03:14 PM

So I rebled brakes last night and while not thinking I torqued the bleeder bolts to 20.8ftlbs instead of 12.5. Oops, oh well nothing broke :) I bet they won't leak ;)

I was torqueing some other bolts and just forgot to change the damn torque wrench setting.

Dave-ROR 11-28-2012 04:20 PM

BTW, the OEM wheels will clear with 10mm spacers.. it's fairly close, maybe 2mm clearance but it works for my needs (flat tire is the only time I'll be using the OEM wheels).

SubieNate 11-28-2012 04:33 PM

@JRitt - I'm not sure if this has been covered here, but what is your opinion on using calipers with no dust boots on the street? Obviously the temperature and use extremes seen would be much less, but on the flip side there is likely going to be much longer periods of time between inspections/bleeds/etc. than on a track only car.

Thanks,
Nathan

Dave-ROR 11-28-2012 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubieNate (Post 579779)
@JRitt - I'm not sure if this has been covered here, but what is your opinion on using calipers with no dust boots on the street? Obviously the temperature and use extremes seen would be much less, but on the flip side there is likely going to be much longer periods of time between inspections/bleeds/etc. than on a track only car.

Thanks,
Nathan

Jeff will cover this assuming he's not on a plane going to PRI already, but... do you track your car at all? If so, dust boots are kind of pointless anyways, they will melt/become brittle and dust after the first track day or two.

If this is a purely street car in question, wait for the formula kit :thumbup:

SubieNate 11-28-2012 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 579792)
Jeff will cover this assuming he's not on a plane going to PRI already, but... do you track your car at all? If so, dust boots are kind of pointless anyways, they will melt/become brittle and dust after the first track day or two.

If this is a purely street car in question, wait for the formula kit :thumbup:

I'm hoping to track my car, eventually.

Nathan

CSG David 11-28-2012 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SubieNate (Post 579898)
I'm hoping to track my car, eventually.

Nathan

A set of good dedicated brake pads and brake fluid will do the trick. Most people underestimate how good the OE brake system is from the factory. We have the AP Racing kit for our future development in the upcoming time attack season. :party0030:

Dave-ROR 11-28-2012 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG David (Post 580030)
A set of good dedicated brake pads and brake fluid will do the trick. Most people underestimate how good the OE brake system is from the factory. We have the AP Racing kit for our future development in the upcoming time attack season. :party0030:

You've been more lucky with yours than I have.. after the rotors delaminated I didn't want to run them again :)

CSG David 11-28-2012 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 580033)
You've been more lucky with yours than I have.. after the rotors delaminated I didn't want to run them again :)

What did you do to your car?!?!?!:eyebulge:

JoeBoxer 11-28-2012 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave-ROR (Post 579792)
Jeff will cover this assuming he's not on a plane going to PRI already, but... do you track your car at all? If so, dust boots are kind of pointless anyways, they will melt/become brittle and dust after the first track day or two.

If this is a purely street car in question, wait for the formula kit :thumbup:

Can't wait to see the Formula setup, the others are overkill for my needs.


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