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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125559)

mrg666 04-29-2018 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079351)
A positive displacement supercharger will add power, but it 'll also increase the weight close to the range of 2990lbs. It depends if you want to have a fatty FI car or a lightweight NA car with similar power to weight ratio. Having said that, it is not as simple as swapping an exhaust manifold. The latter is only a small part of the equation. Personally, I would go always with the NA option since there are other advantages as less strain on certain parts and better handling characteristics.
260 whp is the entry level power of a supercharged twin with 91 octane.

2800 lbs is the stock weight

2800/260 = 10.77 lbs/whp for a supercharger with 91 octane

200 whp is the highest NA with 91 octane around. It was CSGMike's car with ACE ~ 195whp. But lets call it 200 for your benefit.

200 whp * 10.77 lbs/whp = 2153 lbs required for the same ratio of a supercharged twin.

Show me a twin at this curb weight suitable for daily driving. There is only one on this forum which is close to 2200 lbs. And it is completely stripped out with just one seat in it and it doesn't count.

It is not possible to bring an NA car to the same power-to-weght ratio of a supercharged car. Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about. :bs:

SuperTom 04-29-2018 06:20 PM
For Justin I realize you are setup for autocross but did you happen to do any 0-60 type comparisons? It would be interesting to see how much that boost in the middle of the power band would help real world times

new2subaru 04-29-2018 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079351)
A positive displacement supercharger will add power, but it 'll also increase the weight close to the range of 2990lbs. It depends if you want to have a fatty FI car or a lightweight NA car with similar power to weight ratio. Having said that, it is not as simple as swapping an exhaust manifold. The latter is only a small part of the equation. Personally, I would go always with the NA option since there are other advantages as less strain on certain parts and better handling characteristics.
An AT FR-S is 2,800lbs. MT less. Where is the extra 190lbs coming from?

churchx 04-29-2018 09:52 PM
Driver.

new2subaru 04-29-2018 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by churchx (Post 3079492)
Driver.
I don't think so. It doesn't read that way to me, church.

A positive displacement supercharger will add power, but it 'll also increase the weight close to the range of 2990lbs

justinco 04-30-2018 01:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3079419)
For Justin I realize you are setup for autocross but did you happen to do any 0-60 type comparisons? It would be interesting to see how much that boost in the middle of the power band would help real world times
Unfortunately I did not. Looking back, I wish I would have.

nikitopo 04-30-2018 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2subaru (Post 3079468)
An AT FR-S is 2,800lbs. MT less. Where is the extra 190lbs coming from?
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2subaru (Post 3079502)
I don't think so. It doesn't read that way to me, church.

A positive displacement supercharger will add power, but it 'll also increase the weight close to the range of 2990lbs
A supercharger weights let's say 65lbs, but you also need supported modifications. Bigger wheels and tires, bigger brakes. Maybe the 2990lbs weight was too much, but you can easily reach the 2900+ lbs area.

NoHaveMSG 04-30-2018 03:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079613)
A supercharger weights let's say 65lbs, but you also need supported modifications. Bigger wheels and tires, bigger brakes. Maybe the 2990lbs weight was too much, but you can easily reach the 2900+ lbs area.
:iono:

Stock wheels are about 20.7lbs
My Rays 57DR's 17X9 +38 come in at 20.2

Not sure on tires but I doubt my 245 RS3's are more then a pound heavier then stock.

Quote:
Front Brakes
31.2lbs - OEM (Source)
21.0lbs - AP Sprint kit (Source)
I am on the ST kit which is about 3 lbs heavier per side then the AP kit.

nikitopo 04-30-2018 04:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrg666 (Post 3079403)
260 whp is the entry level power of a supercharged twin with 91 octane.

2800 lbs is the stock weight

2800/260 = 10.77 lbs/whp for a supercharger with 91 octane

200 whp is the highest NA with 91 octane around. It was CSGMike's car with ACE ~ 195whp. But lets call it 200 for your benefit.

200 whp * 10.77 lbs/whp = 2153 lbs required for the same ratio of a supercharged twin.

Show me a twin at this curb weight suitable for daily driving. There is only one on this forum which is close to 2200 lbs. And it is completely stripped out with just one seat in it and it doesn't count.

It is not possible to bring an NA car to the same power-to-weght ratio of a supercharged car. Yet again, you don't know what you are talking about. :bs:
A 260 whp IS NOT the entry level output of a supercharged twin. Maybe it is the output of some superchargers, but not all of them. Usually they are moving closer to the 240 whp area.

You are also starting with a stock car and you're not adding any weight because of the supercharger and other needed supported mods. I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.

So, your numbers should be:

2900/240 = 12.08 lbs/whp

For a 200whp NA car we need:

200 whp * 12.08 lbs/whp = 2416 lbs. It is light, but it is quite possible without even stripping the interior. I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).

Besides, you can install certain lightweight rotated parts that give you a much bigger weight gain under acceleration. You are supposed to have a PhD. Go find the rotational inertia equations and figure out for yourself. I will not start here such kind of discussion.

Some might say that I am doing a fair comparison, but I said this at the beginning. Comparing a basic supercharged car with a NA modified car that has additional lightweight parts. If you do the same changes on the supercharged car, then yes you cannot catch it.

NoHaveMSG 04-30-2018 05:45 AM
:iono:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079641)
I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.
You don't need to go into the high end cost category to get a lightweight wheel. RPF1's are like 1k and they are cast, not even forged. There is no such thing as "Cheap" for a good reliable brake setup but you can get a Willwood BBK for 1500. Even stepping up to ST or AP is 2-2300.


Quote:
I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).
So a lower end option from a name brand seat company is still around 700 a seat, plus you need to spend 100-200 on a bracket X2. A decent catback is about 1k. Looking pretty comparable to the price of a BBK and a light set of wheels.

Not like someone that is spending money FI is that concerned about dumping more money into mods on their car anyway.

tomm.brz 04-30-2018 06:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079641)
A 260 whp IS NOT the entry level output of a supercharged twin. Maybe it is the output of some superchargers, but not all of them. Usually they are moving closer to the 240 whp area.

You are also starting with a stock car and you're not adding any weight because of the supercharger and other needed supported mods. I'll say again bigger wheels, tires, brakes. Someone can go in the high end cost category and install forged wheels, very light brakes etc. We are talking here about going with the ordinary options.

So, your numbers should be:

2900/240 = 12.08 lbs/whp

For a 200whp NA car we need:

200 whp * 12.08 lbs/whp = 2416 lbs. It is light, but it is quite possible without even stripping the interior. I am already in the 2620 area and I haven't done too an extreme weight reduction (e.g., changing front seats or exhaust, removing back seats etc).

Besides, you can install certain lightweight rotated parts that give you a much bigger weight gain under acceleration. You are supposed to have a PhD. Go find the rotational inertia equations and figure out for yourself. I will not start here such kind of discussion.

Some might say that I am doing a fair comparison, but I said this at the beginning. Comparing a basic supercharged car with a NA modified car that has additional lightweight parts. If you do the same changes on the supercharged car, then yes you cannot catch it.

Wooo finally you declared the weight of your car : )
still wondering though how you can declare a perceived (lol) hp of 260bhp with your setup that could barely do 170whp and you don t even have a carbon fiber driveshaft


many supercharger kits do more than 240whp, but well many just limit the power because they are worried about bending the rods


and still.. i find so stupid to try to compare SC/NA even if the NA one is lighter because the SC has sooo much more torque from low end that any comparison is just stupid and doesnt stand up

new2subaru 04-30-2018 07:37 AM
EDIT: This is getting way off topic. We dodn't need to pollute this thread with more NA vs FI

In for more ACE 350 results!

JSube 04-30-2018 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RJasonKlein (Post 3079264)
Congratulations! Something you should know is that the base tune is very conservative and performance will improve substantially, particularly in the top end, with datalogging and flashing of successive tunes. Initially I felt that the car wasn’t as fast as I had hoped, but I soon found that it’s quite deceptive because the power delivery is so linear and strong right off of idle. Driving the car for a few days demonstrated how much more power was now available throughout the rev-range, and improved tunes really made the car come alive later on. Enjoy!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 (Post 3079295)
I think this header is for people who A) aren't interested in FI for various reasons, or B) are interested in supercharging down the road and want to optimize at no expense spared. Also keep in mind that purchasing/shipping/installing/tuning/running someone's used supercharger kit costs significantly more than $1700 plus an extra 500-600.
Azzudien- RJK is right about the huge driveability improvements gained and about tuning being a process. He's also one the guys that helped me out when I first got on the forum and had too many questions about modding :thumbsup:. It took quite a few revisions on my car because the engine kept accepting more timing. If you've sent Zach datalogs from your initial tune and he said you're good to go, that would mean your engine is already just inside the timing envelope, I would guess. If you haven't done that, you absolutely need to.

Also, bfrank identified the reason to drop the $$ on NA. I'm anti-turbo (BUT NOT ANTI-TURBO OWNERS!!!:D) so the NA power package fit the bill for me. I've also just ordered the Delicious flexfuel kit and am looking forward to the last bit I get from that. For me, while I'm spending top dollar on NA, my opinion is if I wanted a turbo car, and I've had several, I'd buy another car set up that way from the factory. I also have a huge amount of faith in Delicious Tuning, while still accepting the fact there are no guarantees in mod life.

Azzudien 04-30-2018 11:21 AM
Thanks Jsube, yes I have sent my first datalogs to Zach and anxiously wait for the first revision.

And I agree with new2subaru, this thread is about the A350 header and Delicious tune, lets stay on topic.

And for what it's worth, the next time I have to replace the entire exhaust I am finding a lift. My neck is still killing me from spending 5 hours on my back with my car just up on jack stands. And before someone screams 5 hours? It was my first time doing something like this so I was taking it slow and checking everything as I went.

SuperTom 04-30-2018 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinco (Post 3079576)
Unfortunately I did not. Looking back, I wish I would have.


Well you could still run your setup since we know stock 0-60 is around 6.0-6.2. Would be cool to see how low in the 5's it could go

strat61caster 04-30-2018 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3079613)
Bigger wheels and tires, bigger brakes.
Better tires > bigger tires wheels.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126829

JSube 04-30-2018 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azzudien (Post 3079714)
Thanks Jsube, yes I have sent my first datalogs to Zach and anxiously wait for the first revision.

And I agree with new2subaru, this thread is about the A350 header and Delicious tune, lets stay on topic.

And for what it's worth, the next time I have to replace the entire exhaust I am finding a lift. My neck is still killing me from spending 5 hours on my back with my car just up on jack stands. And before someone screams 5 hours? It was my first time doing something like this so I was taking it slow and checking everything as I went.
I def. got a vivid picture of you under the car with exhaust pieces inches from you nose FOR 5 HOURS :lol:
I'm lucky my neighbor has a lift- it's a 90 min job if you're super anal, 60 min if you're a normal...

Azzudien 04-30-2018 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSube (Post 3079848)
I def. got a vivid picture of you under the car with exhaust pieces inches from you nose FOR 5 HOURS :lol:
I'm lucky my neighbor has a lift- it's a 90 min job if you're super anal, 60 min if you're a normal...
I may have slept through part of that time, not sure though after I dropped the muffler on my head. Stupid rubber hangers

mrg666 04-30-2018 04:58 PM
What I see from most of the dyno charts is that ACE header fills (flattens) the dips in torque and power curves very well. I am wondering if the ACE header will make that much difference for a supercharger setup since the power and torque curves are already very much flat. I can't find a dyno chart that shows a supercharged FA20 before and after ACE header. Do you guys have any insights? CSG Mike, do you have any comments?

CSG Mike 04-30-2018 05:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrg666 (Post 3079892)
What I see from most of the dyno charts is that ACE header fills (flattens) the dips in torque and power curves very well. I am wondering if the ACE header will make that much difference for a supercharger setup since the power and torque curves are already very much flat. I can't find a dyno chart that shows a supercharged FA20 before and after ACE header. Do you guys have any insights? CSG Mike, do you have any comments?
It's additive with a supercharger, and allows for more boost before knocking, all other conditions equal.

E.g. a JRSC HBP can be used on pump gas with an Ace header. On a Tomei/JDL header, the HBP will cause the engine to knock severely enough that you have to pull a ton of timing at higher RPM to be able to safely redline, effectively completely negating the point of increasing boost to begin with, and ultimately having less peak power than before the HBP.

mrg666 04-30-2018 06:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3079919)
It's additive with a supercharger, and allows for more boost before knocking, all other conditions equal.

E.g. a JRSC HBP can be used on pump gas with an Ace header. On a Tomei/JDL header, the HBP will cause the engine to knock severely enough that you have to pull a ton of timing at higher RPM to be able to safely redline, effectively completely negating the point of increasing boost to begin with, and ultimately having less peak power than before the HBP.
Interesting! I am not going to increase boost. If I just replace the stock header with ACE and switch to Delicious tune, I understand from your first comment that the power will increase. I assume ACE header will tilt the curves upwards to provide most of the benefit at higher RPM, right? How much is a reasonable expectation over stock JRSC with factory tune? Do you have any estimate/experience? Thanks for helping out.

CSG Mike 04-30-2018 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrg666 (Post 3079955)
Interesting! I am not going to increase boost. If I just replace the stock header with ACE and switch to Delicious tune, I understand from your first comment that the power will increase. I assume ACE header will tilt the curves upwards to provide most of the benefit at higher RPM, right? How much is a reasonable expectation over stock JRSC with factory tune? Do you have any estimate/experience? Thanks for helping out.
You'll have significant midrange gains, with some top end gains.

nikitopo 05-01-2018 06:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomm.brz (Post 3079651)
Wooo finally you declared the weight of your car : )
still wondering though how you can declare a perceived (lol) hp of 260bhp with your setup that could barely do 170whp and you don t even have a carbon fiber driveshaft
I have a build thread and you can check there. I posted acceleration measurements that were done twice and their difference was a hundredth of a second which means accuracy is pretty good. I compared these times with a stock UK car and there is a 13.3% improvement and my car has a 3.727 fd which gives a 10% worse acceleration comparing to the stock 4.1 fd in same gear. Additionally, the UK car is much lighter comparing to most US cars, because of different crash safety requirements in Europe. Do the rest of the math yourself.


If you have more questions, you can ask in my build thread or send me a pm. Let's not continue the discussion here.

SuperTom 05-14-2018 02:52 PM
Justin how many back and forth tunes did it take to get right? And how much do they charge each time you have to go back and forth?


Thanks

Azzudien 05-14-2018 03:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3086588)
Justin how many back and forth tunes did it take to get right? And how much do they charge each time you have to go back and forth?


Thanks
Not Justin, but I just finished this process with Zach with the Ace350 header and it took 5 revisions for my car.
It is pretty painless process and Zach is amazingly quick at responding each time I sent in a data log.
Worst part for me was when he had me start doing 3rd gear pulls from 2000rpm's to redline, Finding someplace in New York to do that is tough.

Was no added price for the revisions, just paid for the base tune and the revisions where included with the base tune price and Zach didn't stop until I signed off that I was completely satisfied.

CSG Mike 05-14-2018 03:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3086588)
Justin how many back and forth tunes did it take to get right? And how much do they charge each time you have to go back and forth?


Thanks
It varies with each car. Some cars take as few as 2, others take as many as 20.

Because this is not a one-size-fits-all tune, but rather, the tune is being highly customized to your individual engine, it's difficult to make an accurate guess. The typical range is between 3 and 8, as most behavior is known and quickly adjusted for, AFAIK.

Breadman 05-14-2018 04:33 PM
also it depends on if you follow instructions... they said a 2 minute "cruise" and thought they meant just drive around for 2 minutes so i logged to and back from the store. naw turns out they wanted a cruise control.

SuperTom 05-14-2018 04:36 PM
As long as they don't charge extra that sounds good that they will tweak it until its right. Thanks everyone

CSG Mike 05-14-2018 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3086677)
As long as they don't charge extra that sounds good that they will tweak it until its right. Thanks everyone
Included with every tune purchased from CSG/DT.

justinco 05-14-2018 05:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3086588)
Justin how many back and forth tunes did it take to get right? And how much do they charge each time you have to go back and forth?


Thanks
Everyone covered it. It took 5 or 6 revisions on the street for me, then we did a bunch on the dyno to maximize the tune as well. No charge for revisions as mentioned.

SuperTom 05-15-2018 12:11 PM
What Catback systems are people running? It looks like the ACE ends in 2.5" (63.5mm) configuration if what I read is right? A lot of the front-pipes,catbacks are 60mm which I could see being a brick wall with all that flow coming out of the header/overpipe.


I currently have invidia catted FP, HKS legamax all 60mm meaning Id have to update everything to 2.5" as well so I have to consider that into the cost as well.

churchx 05-15-2018 12:46 PM
Why? If invidia's catted FP has flanges made to be used with stock headers & overpipe, you should be able to bolt it to Ace's overpipe (that is part of Ace's headers set/construction).
That is fitment wise. Flow wise/pressure drop wise you are overthinking things. Ace header works good even with stock everthing else (which probably are more resistive then aftermarket boltons you have now).
I'd consider switch only in case if before you were running those with catted header, eg. stock, and if after switch total noise gets too loud when you add in also catless header, or if those particular parts add some unpleasant drone if with Ace's.

cjd 05-15-2018 01:16 PM
Results are good with the stock FP. Incrementally better options, see the Ace FP at 3", but then 2.4" for the rest of their system.

I have an aftermarket fp that doesn't bolt up, but it also fails to bolt up to stock... Baffles me how that made it out the door. I'll be able to fix it, just have to get a couple small welds done.

I have Thermal catback, reported weight was 8lbs lighter than reality but I have it, it's still a few lbs lighter than stock, and the sound/fit is nice... The helmholz tuning is spot on, very quiet cruising on the highway.

justinco 08-15-2018 10:50 PM
Getting ready to do a tune with 93 octane on the ACE + Delicious setup. Curious what the dyno will show after we are done compared to the data from this 91 tune! Coming soon :)

SuperTom 08-16-2018 10:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinco (Post 3122048)
Getting ready to do a tune with 93 octane on the ACE + Delicious setup. Curious what the dyno will show after we are done compared to the data from this 91 tune! Coming soon :)
Nice.

I just got finished with Zach last week. No dyno results but I'm very happy with the smoothness and pull and the exhaust is even more refined. Took 7 revisions on 93 octane to get right. And yes Zach is very quick turn around usually 24-48hrs later. Not weeks and months with other tuners

stlgrym3 08-16-2018 10:50 PM
I’ve been working with Zach since last week on my ACE350+Flex fuel tune, so far I’ve done 3 revisions and still haven’t gotten the green light to pump ethanol yet until they iron out the kinks for 91.

Breadman 08-17-2018 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperTom (Post 3122439)
Nice.

I just got finished with Zach last week. No dyno results but I'm very happy with the smoothness and pull and the exhaust is even more refined. Took 7 revisions on 93 octane to get right. And yes Zach is very quick turn around usually 24-48hrs later. Not weeks and months with other tuners

yeah hes awesome. he did mine and he was always waiting on me. would recommend

smg1138 08-19-2018 08:57 PM
Just curious, how do other 4-2-1 headers compare to the Ace 350? Are the Tomei and HKS EL headers pretty close or is it just a total blowout? These are super nice but the cost is kind of prohibitive for a NA solution IMHO. I'm currently using the JDL UEL catless headers, but have been thinking about changing to a 4-2-1 EL.

cjd 08-19-2018 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by smg1138 (Post 3123313)
Just curious, how do other 4-2-1 headers compare to the Ace 350? Are the Tomei and HKS EL headers pretty close or is it just a total blowout? These are super nice but the cost is kind of prohibitive for a NA solution IMHO. I'm currently using the JDL UEL catless headers, but have been thinking about changing to a 4-2-1 EL.

Only other in the same game was Nameless. Ace 350 pulls harder below 3500 for sure, and dynos show why. Withholding judgement on the top end till I get things sorted (finally getting my 3" front pipe, and discovered 2 of 3 studs missing at the header/overpipe flange on my Ace)

RJasonKlein 08-19-2018 10:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjd (Post 3123320)
Withholding judgement on the top end till I get things sorted (finally getting my 3" front pipe, and discovered 2 of 3 studs missing at the header/overpipe flange on my Ace)
I had the same issue with two of the three flange bolts going missing after about 3,000 miles. I wish that I had taken photos of the solution I ‘engineered’, but it basically involved replacing the original bolts with slightly longer 304 stainless steel hex-cap bolts torqued to spec with a jam nut applied on the other side of the nut that’s welded to the backside of the flange. Problem solved.


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