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Nice, that looks really good!

Umm, what? You claim that a tune does nothing to fix the torque dip. You then link two sources of data supposedly backing that claim, yet both of them include cars that are tuned :iono:

Myself, and others on this forum, have had tunes on stock cars where the torque dip was tuned out. I am not the only one...

All you are doing is spreading misinformation for people searching on this stuff...

Can't tell if trolling or not...

Good grief.

Ok so...

- a tune cannot get completely rid of the torque dip, but it can make it *much* better. The best stock tunes that handle the torque dip have a significant amount of cam overlap in that area, you hear a lot of valve noise. Some like it, some don't, Subaru may have had some limits in this area, not sure.

- a de-catted/gutted stock header cannot get completely rid of the torque dip, even with tune, look at that graph. There still is a dip - not to take away from it as a budget solution, there's huge bang for the buck there, but it's in no way comparable to the ACE bottom end or any of the other well designed long tube headers out there.

- a catted aftermarket long tube header of a good design, with a good tune *can* get rid of the torque dip

- IMHO, best combination obviously is a well tuned quality design long tube header plus an optimized tune (like the ACE setup). Save your pennies for this or a similar quality setup with a good tune, forget your front/midpipe for now, and get an axle back for sound. That's your best non-FI bang/buck other than E85 for this car.

Great comparison. Pretty good gains with the ACE, I think I'd go with that if/when I get an aftermarket header. I think it comes down to how much $$$ you want to pay, and if you care about getting the most performance or not.

Just following up on this. Zach and I did 2 sessions of additional dyno tuning and made even more power with the ACE A350 and Delicious tune. It's not significant, but goes to show how the dyno sessions (with a wideband) can help extract the most out of the setup. Also, after hitting 188/189 over and over and over again with the dyno pulls, we finally hit 190whp :D (corrected). As I always say, peak #'s don't mean all that much, but it was nice to finally see 190 lol.

Solid line is after dyno tuning, the dotted line is the dyno from OP street tuning results.

Some pretty solid torque gains down low with the additional tuning.

Just to clarify, the dyno tuning gains are being compared to the datalog-revised tune and not the initial tune?

Dyno tune compared to the street tune.

The street tune power results are what is posted at beginning of this thread.

I reread the thread and saw the post where you said it was based on datalogging, so that answers my question. Thanks for sharing your data!

I thought you mentioned in the first post something about a Mustang dyno. So it was a street dyno? Anyway, not much of importance. The difference in the new dyno is still small. The Nameless header was giving the same or even better results a long time ago.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...98&postcount=1

But if you are happy with the gains in 3-4k rpm, who cares? Enjoy your car!

Huh? It was the same dyno both times. The original post was the dyno after street TUNING. I added the dyno results (same dyno) after dyno TUNING.

You just don't get it. Apples and oranges.

You cannot compare dynos that are not on the same dyno.

Just how OFT's "baseline" dyno is way higher than everyone else. Both of these are "about 200whp", but one is much slower than the other.

https://i.imgur.com/b4O3mUL.jpg

Is that a more recent baseline from oft? I believe their shop car in the past baselined around 170

What I don't get it? The post was comparing the Nameless with the Ace 350. Different dynos, but same headers. Not some random header like the OFH you referenced. I would never consider OFH a serious header. I also said that Justin's is better in mid range which is a fact for Ace. It is his car and if he likes it more, then it is what counts. :thumbsup:

Case and point.

Sure is.

Here's the two overlaid dynos, in their original forms. Most people conveniently ignore baselines, because they so desperately want to believe they hit that magic 200whp NA.

https://i.imgur.com/YEmoKNY.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Rb0XQ6Z.jpg

Haha you are funny.

A set of curves on a graph should have a legend identifying what the three colors represent. Should I assume this is stock, tune +93 octane and tune + E85 on the same car? I just want to make sure I am interpreting the DT supplied chart correctly.

I think we can suffice it to say that the ace is the best solution but not the only solution. My car makes a stocker feel weak and I'm running a much lower budget tune/header combo.

OFH:

- 17 stock
- 17 + 91 tune
- 17 + 91 tune + OFH
- 17 + E85 tune + OFH

DT

- 17 stock
- 17 + 91 tune + Ace
- 17 + flex tune + Ace

Note how one set of graphs conveniently scales to have a barely 200whp number.

So you think the oft curves were raised to show 200whp because of the high baseline? Who knows

Mike introduced me to this setup today. Is this the same thing this topic is discussing? I’m strongly leaning toward getting this kit,ore reviews and comments are welcomed. Is it a trouble free kit after install? What affect on mpg?

https://www.counterspacegarage.com/p...g/csg-86ace-dt

This thread is about the ACE A-350 header and Delicious tuning. Both of which are the core components of that "kit", which has a number of options you can add.

Justin, is the difference between new setup and old setup very noticeable during daily driving?

Yes, it is a good improvement in that low/mid range. Also did 30+ autocross test runs and an event over the weekend. The added pull/torque is very noticeable in that type of driving.

anyone with an auto 86/BRZ have this combo installed? reviews?

Hi Justin,


I have just seen the latest autocross video in your youtube channel. You mentioned something is off with your tune because you couldn't reach a certain speed (something like 60mph??) at one of the section in the race course.


Have you already got it sorted out?
If so, What is the problem?

I do. I also have the Delicious flex fuel kit, and a 4.556 FD. The car is super fun to drive and pretty quick. I drove this configuration for over a year. It gets even better if you add and Edelbrock SC. :)

Here's a video of me autocrossing the setup without the SC: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikyarrQ_LkA"]SDR SCAT 3 26 2017 afternoon x run number 3 - 69.284 +1 - YouTube[/ame]

Not yet. Have hardly touched the car since the Fontana event. Been getting my BMW ready for this weekend.

I did get a new tune file, just need to test and log.

So I finally installed my ACE A350 header and Delicious Tune from Counterspace Garage.

Ace A-350 ceramic coated, paired with MXP Touring 86 and Delicious 93 octane tune

First installation, it went smooth no real problems. Yes I had to raise the engine, no idea how others have done it without raising. I did rub on the skid plate so I had to do a little metal work. No biggie, small sledge and about 2 hits.

Have never used Ecutek or flashed any tune so that was the part I was most worried about, but it went really smooth and was far easier than I expected.

Initial impressions; I wouldn't say I noticed a huge increase in power, but the biggest difference right of the bat is the smooth power delivery. Stock you feel it so much once you get past the torque dip and the power kicks in. With this setup its smooth power right on through the rev range which was really nice.

As far as sound, a nice deep throaty exhaust and slightly louder than stock, but again now I have no cats. No drone or rasp at all.

Be forewarned, you definitely lose the Subaru rumble with EL header.

Worth the money? Probable not its a car, considering with ceramic coating the entire package set me back $3800. But for the enjoyment factor and smooth power delivery I think it was money well spent. With more power down low I think I should be able to take Lime Rock now without every dropping below 4th which has been one of my main targets.

Thanks to David and Mike at Counterspace Garage and Zach at Delicious Tuning.

+1 Happy customer

I finally got around to working on the tune with Zach @ Delicious. The car was pulling timing and a couple other things were slightly off. Not sure exactly what changed, but anyways, after a couple tune revisions Zach had things back and working just fine.

Congratulations! Something you should know is that the base tune is very conservative and performance will improve substantially, particularly in the top end, with datalogging and flashing of successive tunes. Initially I felt that the car wasn’t as fast as I had hoped, but I soon found that it’s quite deceptive because the power delivery is so linear and strong right off of idle. Driving the car for a few days demonstrated how much more power was now available throughout the rev-range, and improved tunes really made the car come alive later on. Enjoy!

That’s to much in my opinion for a header lol for that 1700 I’d rather save an extra 500 to 600 more and get someone’s used supercharger kit honestly and get way more power then a header that costs that much .

I think this header is for people who A) aren't interested in FI for various reasons, or B) are interested in supercharging down the road and want to optimize at no expense spared. Also keep in mind that purchasing/shipping/installing/tuning/running someone's used supercharger kit costs significantly more than $1700 plus an extra 500-600.

Well that is correct it would be more but if you are the person installing the kit most of the things you have to worry about is tuning which a tune runs about 400 bucks i mean you make a point understandable

You miss the point of this setup as it really is not about power. The reason I purchased is:
1. I am fortunate in life and had the money for it
2. I never plan to FI this car.
3. I wanted a smoother power delivery, which on the track helps tremendously powering out of corner. I have a goal of taking the left hander at LimeRock in 4th gear. I think I can do that in 4500rpm range, but the previous torque dip and resulting power jump would kick out the rear.
4. Reliability, I am done at this point on power/engine mods other than finishing installing my oil cooler.

Yup I get it, bang for the buck, but a few things:

Caveat #1 - most FI headaches/catastrophes are install error, so make sure you know what you're doing, and know the quirks of your specific kit, they all have their own things to deal with :)

Caveat #2 - supplemental cooling is a good idea, depending on your climate, how hard you drive, and how much power you're making

Caveat #3 - with FI you're pushing the motor way past its design tolerances. Some motors have less defects than others, and likely all of them will be fine on stockish power, or even with NA bolt on mods. Double your power with FI, these defects will rise to the surface. Motor A will last for another 100k miles. Motor B will throw a rod in 2 weeks after going FI. Either roll the dice or budget for a motor rebuild in the future (header mods don't pose as much of a risk in this area).

Caveat #4 - used kit, potentially missing parts, wear on the kit from heat and mileage, no coverage if expensive things fail (like Rotrex units, etc.)

That's all I'm saying - you can go budget if you have to, but the risk of headaches is much higher, you may end up loathing the day you installed the kit, and eventually just hating your car if you cut corners.

For my uses I agree with you on the expense though - ACE is generally regarded as the best design, but it's quite expensive. I bought a used piece for $400 that completely changes how my car drives for the better.

A positive displacement supercharger will add power, but it 'll also increase the weight close to the range of 2990lbs. It depends if you want to have a fatty FI car or a lightweight NA car with similar power to weight ratio. Having said that, it is not as simple as swapping an exhaust manifold. The latter is only a small part of the equation. Personally, I would go always with the NA option since there are other advantages as less strain on certain parts and better handling characteristics.

I think it would be more expensive to match power to weight ratio of sc car by lightening a na car.

Yes it is more expensive and not always optimal for a daily driver.