Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125559)

airjonny 02-24-2018 02:02 AM
Say bye to that dip! Good riddance!

Also, how did you get the car to rev to 8k?

justinco 02-24-2018 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by airjonny (Post 3049110)
Say bye to that dip! Good riddance!

Also, how did you get the car to rev to 8k?
You can set the rev-limiter in the tune. Mine is at 7800rpm.

nikitopo 02-24-2018 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049001)
I don't know if they did it for economy. It is certainly possible, and I have even said that same theory in the past, but it was only conjecture. What evidence is there for that? If they cared so much about mileage to create a torque dip then why would they change the final drive on the 2017 to be more aggressive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3049032)
There is so much more that we don't have answers for so there are a lot of assumptions. I know bore to stroke changes VE. We also do not know how the FB is cammed vs the FA which would also play a large role. I have a feeling it is significantly different just based on what red line is between the two.
You have answers and these are not assumptions. Toyota insisted to keep the dip and have a more economic and environmental friendly car. They never wanted to fix the dip. Maybe to provide a refinement, but never to fix. This is the most official reply you can get:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=51

NoHaveMSG 02-24-2018 02:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3049114)
You have answers and these are not assumptions. It looks that Toyota insisted to keep the dip and have a more economic and environmental friendly car. They never wanted to fix the dip. Maybe to provide a refinement, but never to fix. This is the most official reply you can get:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=51
So. Why. Is. There. No. Dyno. Of. A. Stock. Car. That. Has. Been. Tuned. By. The. Aftermarket. That. Has. No. Torque. Dip?

I don't know how much more simple to put it then that. Not trying to flame you, or say that your wrong. But if there is not an aftermarket tuner that has removed the dip on a stock car I would say this is not true. There are plenty of examples of tuned stock cars. Still have the dip.

Man I am really sorry to the OP. I always thought the ACE header was kind of over blown but after seeing all the charts, without even bothering to look at the numbers, it obviously works well.

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtengr (Post 3049084)
You would look at everything related to ignition timing and see that the engine is protecting itself from knock during the torque dip if your theory was true.
So is timing flat across the rev range? I dunno.

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3049114)
You have answers and these are not assumptions. It looks that Toyota insisted to keep the dip and have a more economic and environmental friendly car. They never wanted to fix the dip. Maybe to provide a refinement, but never to fix. This is the most official reply you can get:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...8&postcount=51
Is that a common choice for manufacturers to design into a sports car?

nikitopo 02-24-2018 02:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3049117)
So. Why. Is. There. No. Dyno. Of. A. Stock. Car. That. Has. Been. Tuned. By. The. Aftermarket. That. Has. No. Torque. Dip?
Why do you think everything should be done by software from the factory? Building a motor is basically a mechanical engineering subject, not a software engineering subject. If you cannot understand the latter difference we cannot discuss.

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 02:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3049117)
So. Why. Is. There. No. Dyno. Of. A. Stock. Car. That. Has. Been. Tuned. By. The. Aftermarket. That. Has. No. Torque. Dip?

I don't know how much more simple to put it then that. Not trying to flame you, or say that your wrong. But if there is not an aftermarket tuner that has removed the dip on a stock car I would say this is not true. There are plenty of examples of tuned stock cars. Still have the dip.

Man I am really sorry to the OP. I always thought the ACE header was kind of over blown but after seeing all the charts, without even bothering to look at the numbers, it obviously works well.
His claim was the dip was designed, whether through tuning, exhaust system, intake system, valve timing, or a combination of things. If it is true then only trying to tune it out would work if they only did it through a tune.

nikitopo 02-24-2018 02:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049120)
Is that a common choice for manufacturers to design into a sports car?
Do you have any idea what Toyota was selling before this?


Anyway, this is it guys. Have a nice evening and a good morning for me :)

cyde01 02-24-2018 02:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinco (Post 3047689)
I finished up my dyno comparison with the ACE A-350 header versus my previous Revworks UEL setup. I'll post the full video and then some of the graphs and things here if you just want the nitty gritty :) The video does, however, contain all my thoughts on the how's and why's of the results, too much to type.

Notes: These tests were done at Denver altitude, so dyno weather correction is in effect. My estimation is 1%-2% deviation give or take, based on my experience doing sessions at this dyno the past 4 years, on 3 different cars. RPM's are not exact due to it being difficult to exactly align the dyno with the car, but you get the idea. It is also a Mustang dyno. Enjoy :)

Mods for the pre-ACE baseline dyno session:
Blitz drop-in filter (2017)
Perrin inlet tube (2017)
Revworks UEL header (ceramic coated)
Perrin overpipe (ceramic coated)
Berk HFC front-pipe
Custom 2.5' exhaust, stock resonator, Magnaflow muffler

Mods for the ACE dyno session:
Same as above except swapped Revworks UEL & Perrin OP for ACE A-350 w/ CSG Spec ceramic coating. Re-tuned by Zach @ Delicious.

Image 1: ACE (solid) versus Revworks/Perrin (dotted)
Image 2: ACE (solid) versus bone stock 2017 BRZ (dotted)
Image 3: Fun little heat map to show power differences every 100rpms

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggQspB1P7a4
good audio, good lighting, solid episode! I would suggest adding a music bed during the talking portion and keep it low as well so it doesn't drown out your talking. But for the most part turning into a solid youtube show! :thumbsup:

NoHaveMSG 02-24-2018 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049124)
His claim was the dip was designed, whether through tuning, exhaust system, intake system, valve timing, or a combination of things. If it is true then only trying to tune it out would work if they only did it through a tune.
I'm an illiterate dumbass sometimes......:bonk:

CSG Mike 02-24-2018 03:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049001)
I don't know if they did it for economy. It is certainly possible, and I have even said that same theory in the past, but it was only conjecture. What evidence is there for that? If they cared so much about mileage to create a torque dip then why would they change the final drive on the 2017 to be more aggressive?

I'm of the belief that the torque dip is a product of a 12.5:1 compression motor trying to avoid knock, something that could be alleviated with a long tube catless header, but they need a precat, and they need to heat the precat fast during cold starts for emissions, something that a long tube header doesn't allow.
It wasn't done for economy. It is the byproduct of Subaru/Toyota trying to get 200hp out of a 2 liter engine, that still meets modern emissions standards.

CSG Mike 02-24-2018 03:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049007)
Sorry, I'm fairly naive about the details of tuning...

Are you saying the Motec system doesn't use the knock sensors to automatically adjust timing/etc to avoid knock?...that the Motec system only runs on set parameters like open tune only (maf only)?...did I butcher that?
A Motec can be tuned to, quite literally, do whatever you want, however you want, (and of course, bad combinations can have disastrous results).

Harey 02-24-2018 03:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harey (Post 3049046)
Correct, either way it's not just in the tune as someone else said previously. In another thread on here all they did was punch out the internals of the cat and the torque dip was gone. Don't think it gets any more conclusive than that.
One more time:
In another thread on here all they did was punch out the internals of the cat in the headers and the torque dip was gone.

The torque dip is caused by the cat in the headers. The cat was needed to meet emissions.

Why dont they revise it in a later model, because emissions are a MASSIVE pain and very expensive. Once it has passed, just leave it alone.

steve99 02-24-2018 04:21 AM
1 Attachment(s)
If you have a NA car with standard sensors you can only use the inputs provided by those sensors regardless of if your uding opensource tuning ecutek or motec. Your also limited by the engine dynamics ie intake pirt runner sizes valve sizes, cam lift combustion chamber design etc. So theirs only so much you can tune. The factory engineers also have constraints of fuel economy emissions and noise vibration harshness and more. Aftermarket tuners dont need to consider some of those. Removing the cat in the header is a big advantage.

Dyno below is a uel header, stock cars do about 100-105kw on same dyno

Lantanafrs2 02-24-2018 12:28 PM
So I'm wondering if something that lessens the torque dip from the top of the motor ie power blocks will have the ecu pull timing after a while?

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3049125)
Do you have any idea what Toyota was selling before this?


Anyway, this is it guys. Have a nice evening and a good morning for me :)
I think it was the MR2, Supra, Corrola and Celica, and from Lexus, the LFA, LC500, ISF, GSF, RCF, SC Soarer and SC430 and from Scion the tC which is a stretch.

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3049135)
A Motec can be tuned to, quite literally, do whatever you want, however you want, (and of course, bad combinations can have disastrous results).
Sounds scary :scared0016:

cjd 02-24-2018 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 (Post 3049202)
So I'm wondering if something that lessens the torque dip from the top of the motor ie power blocks will have the ecu pull timing after a while?
Longer runners are good for low(er) rpm power - there is a direct correlating loss at high(er) rpm typically. I vaguely recall less impact with e85, so there's something in there that may allow more timing as well. Also don't remember noticing that power blocks do anything with the torque dip. That said, I'd not anticipate it causing timing to be pulled over time. I had a car with dual runners, and the longer runner ran from ~3000-5600rpm and the short runners everywhere else. At low rpm I guess runner length wasn't the primary benefit, but the volume change helped. Short runners were valved, long side not (always open).

I do suspect the torque dip is harmonics related based on the handful of things observed to change it, but I don't have the experience or background to be particularly confident.

I wonder if a dual catted Ace 4-2-1 would perform nearly as well, but that's a wild curiosity that'll never be answered. :)

nikitopo 02-24-2018 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049225)
I think it was the MR2, Supra, Corrola and Celica, and from Lexus, the LFA, LC500, ISF, GSF, RCF, SC Soarer and SC430 and from Scion the tC which is a stretch.
These Toyota cars were a long time ago. There wasn't any real sports car offering before our platform. Why do you think they contact Subaru? At that time they were selling mainly small cars, hybrids, mini-vans and they had a strong ecological heritage. I don't consider Lexus a performance brand, but mainly a premium or luxury brand. The LFA is an exemption and the motor was developed with the help of Yamaha. So, not entirely a Toyota product.

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3049241)
These Toyota cars were a long time ago. There wasn't any real sports car offering before our platform. Why do you think they contact Subaru? At that time they were selling mainly small cars, hybrids, mini-vans and they had a strong ecological heritage. I don't consider Lexus a performance brand, but mainly a premium or luxury brand. The LFA is an exemption and the motor was developed with the help of Yamaha. So, not entirely a Toyota product.
Right, most of those models ended in the early to mid 2000’s after the Asian market crisis in the late 90’s and then the 2008 market collapse made sure sports cars would be rare, hence sport luxury sedans. The Lexus F line is like BMW’s M line, so pretty sporty, and they have been produced through the sports car hiatus.

Regardless, your point is that going forward Toyota will be producing sports cars with torque dips designed in their motors to give those motors economy and performance. I guess we will see when the new Supra comes out if there is a dip.

Of course the other explanation is that the torque dip is there as a byproduct of the other engineered components, and that the easiest thing to do is to market the dip as an intentional design to maximize fuel efficiency around town.

bfrank1972 02-24-2018 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjd (Post 3049239)
Longer runners are good for low(er) rpm power - there is a direct correlating loss at high(er) rpm typically. I vaguely recall less impact with e85, so there's something in there that may allow more timing as well. Also don't remember noticing that power blocks do anything with the torque dip. That said, I'd not anticipate it causing timing to be pulled over time. I had a car with dual runners, and the longer runner ran from ~3000-5600rpm and the short runners everywhere else. At low rpm I guess runner length wasn't the primary benefit, but the volume change helped. Short runners were valved, long side not (always open).

I do suspect the torque dip is harmonics related based on the handful of things observed to change it, but I don't have the experience or background to be particularly confident.

I wonder if a dual catted Ace 4-2-1 would perform nearly as well, but that's a wild curiosity that'll never be answered. :)
Longer runners effectively compress the power band, one thing you'll see is the torque dip will get a little narrower, which helps with normal shift points as well as overall less rpm range where the engine is down on power. I suspect the thing with e85 and power blocks is that it can't take advantage of some of the changes as timing can always pretty much be optimal with e85. With pump, timing retard near the top end can be lessened when adding power blocks - above 6500 rpm you're starting to get out of optimal VE, cylinder pressures are less, which gives more room to advance timing from where it was before the blocks. That's where with careful tuning you can regain nearly all the top end losses introduced by the longer runners.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Harey 02-24-2018 03:23 PM
I don't understand how this is still a discussion?? 100% standard car, remove internals of cat in header and torque dip is gone.

steve99 02-24-2018 06:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 (Post 3049202)
So I'm wondering if something that lessens the torque dip from the top of the motor ie power blocks will have the ecu pull timing after a while?

If its tuned correctly the ecu should rarely have to intervene to pull timing, during normal operation with correct fuel

Lantanafrs2 02-24-2018 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve99 (Post 3049341)
If its tuned correctly the ecu should rarely have to intervene to pull timing, during normal operation with correct fuel
Steve, are you running f.i. now? I'm thinking about doing it eventually and try to follow your posts because you know your business.

NRXRaptor 02-24-2018 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049259)
I guess we will see when the new Supra comes out if there is a dip.
I'm pretty sure the new supra is literally a re-skinned BMW M4

CSG Mike 02-24-2018 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3049241)
These Toyota cars were a long time ago. There wasn't any real sports car offering before our platform. Why do you think they contact Subaru? At that time they were selling mainly small cars, hybrids, mini-vans and they had a strong ecological heritage. I don't consider Lexus a performance brand, but mainly a premium or luxury brand. The LFA is an exemption and the motor was developed with the help of Yamaha. So, not entirely a Toyota product.
They contacted Subaru because they want to minimize their cost and maximize their profits.

Teseo 02-25-2018 12:01 AM
Wow... this thread escalated so badly. From header and tune to blaming toyota. To keep on topic, a paper with a graph mean shit to op as long he is pleased on real scenario, in his case autocross. So im waiting patiently for his impressions /video

Irace86.2.0 02-25-2018 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teseo (Post 3049439)
Wow... this thread escalated so badly. From header and tune to blaming toyota. To keep on topic, a paper with a graph mean shit to op as long he is pleased on real scenario, in his case autocross. So im waiting patiently for his impressions /video
We are exploring the possible source of the torque dip, while addressing the fact that this header and tune fixes it, while considering other means of sorting out the torque dip. It is not a one dimensional conversation, that is true, but it is good conversation nevertheless.

————-

Anyone have the other Ace headers dyno tuned side by side?

tennisfreak 02-25-2018 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NRXRaptor (Post 3049399)
I'm pretty sure the new supra is literally a re-skinned BMW M4
I'm pretty sure you are dead wrong.

There is a decent chance it will have the B58 inline turbo 6 the current m240i has in it.

Other than that its a new platform that is shared with the z4/5

EAGLE5 02-25-2018 02:18 PM
OH SHIT! Somebody on the internet is wrong.

Kordless 02-26-2018 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Silveira (Post 3048898)
Man I wish I could test drive your car. I'm dying to know what a tune from Delicious and headers from Ace or elsewhere would do to this car.
You are in LA, I'm in LA... Hahahah lets make this happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 (Post 3048907)
lol this statement implies you have driven an 86 configured with every other header on the market :D
I've owned my fair share of all the popular ones. Tomei, JDL, Nameless.

I've driven others, Ft86speedfactory, Borla, Fujitsubo etc.

I should've changed my statement from all other to just the popular ones. I have not driven some crazy rare japanese headers or every single header out there, but definitely the most popular ones :)

Harey 02-26-2018 06:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049464)
We are exploring the possible source of the torque dip, while addressing the fact that this header and tune fixes it, while considering other means of sorting out the torque dip. It is not a one dimensional conversation, that is true, but it is good conversation nevertheless.
The torque dip is old news. Tune does nothing to fix it. All reasonable catless headers fix it, some catted headers (hi flow cats) fix it.

Even just punching out the insides of the OEM cat fixes it, dyno here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96235

justinco 02-26-2018 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harey (Post 3050279)
The torque dip is old news. Tune does nothing to fix it. All reasonable catless headers fix it, some catted headers (hi flow cats) fix it.

Even just punching out the insides of the OEM cat fixes it, dyno here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96235
Except it says right at the top of that thread they are using an OFT OTS stage 2 tune plus other mods....what am I missing?

I had nothing but an OFT OTS stg1 tune on my 2017 car right when I got it and it all but eliminated the torque dip. So in my experience the tune very easily removes the torque dip by itself...

But this thread has already de-railed enough...

Code Monkey 02-26-2018 07:34 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Dyno'd the car today, the hp/tq curve is more or less where it is supposed to be, the car feels much faster than stock, the numbers are wtf. :D I guess the real test will be the next track day.

I did not get a baseline dyno because I have an uncovered parking pad and needed enough time to install the header and tune the car and we have had a lot of rainy days lately so I was in a hurry to finish before March 10.

CSG Mike 02-26-2018 07:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Silveira (Post 3048898)
Man I wish I could test drive your car. I'm dying to know what a tune from Delicious and headers from Ace or elsewhere would do to this car.
Head out to the LA meet tomorrow.

Jordan Silveira 02-26-2018 08:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3050303)
Head out to the LA meet tomorrow.
I'm not aware of the meet? More info if you don't mind would be appreciated.

CSG Mike 02-26-2018 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Silveira (Post 3050318)
I'm not aware of the meet? More info if you don't mind would be appreciated.
https://www.facebook.com/events/2068392573445228/

Harey 02-26-2018 08:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinco (Post 3050285)
Except it says right at the top of that thread they are using an OFT OTS stage 2 tune plus other mods....what am I missing?

I had nothing but an OFT OTS stg1 tune on my 2017 car right when I got it and it all but eliminated the torque dip. So in my experience the tune very easily removes the torque dip by itself...

But this thread has already de-railed enough...
Congrats you are the first person to remove the torque dip through tuning only :bow:

http://www.circuitmotorsports-blog.c...-fr-s-86s.html

Jordan Silveira 02-26-2018 09:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3050325)
I'm sorry Mike! Not trying to be a pain or a nuisance. Unfortunately it says the content is not available to see. What it seems like to me is because perhaps I'm not allowed to see the content from the group event page? Do I have to be accepted into the group to see the event or? Sorry again!


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