Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB
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Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Engine, Exhaust, Transmission (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   ACE A-350 dyno results - Did it deliver? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125559)

DarkSunrise 02-23-2018 09:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harey (Post 3048500)
Do any of the catted headers get rid of the dip?
Here's a dyno from the FT86SF catted header. Catted 4-1 design.

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/medi...86ctdhdr-8.jpg

The gains from 3200-4500 RPM are noticeable on the street. (I've had this header, as well as a JDL catless on my car).

bfrank1972 02-23-2018 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinco (Post 3048220)
I mean, yea you could make OFT work with an ACE header. But, I would not recommend that at all. ECUtek is a much more capable and feature filled platform. It would be a total waste to skimp on the tuning, if you are buying an ACE header.

Not to mention, CSG & Delicious have a lot of time and testing with this package, so it is well optimized.
Good advice - I think one of the bigger benefits of buying the ACE headers is you get a tune that has been well vetted by Delicious, vs a generic one-shoe-fits-all solution.

In general the OFT model fits people who don't want to spend a lot of money on tuning and want to be able to recoup their investment, i.e. you can buy a used OFT, use free tunes with no tuner investment, and later sell the OFT for little to no loss. It's a good solution and for most people out there it's functionally just as good as EcuTEK, though your tunes will never be as good as a custom tune, or even a canned tune designed for a specific header.

Conversely, the ACE setup is for people who don't mind spending a lot of money to get one of the most optimized NA setups out there.

Really they're two different markets - if you want to spend for ACE, go EcuTEK as that's where the support is, and you won't be disappointed.

If you want to pinch pennies (like me :) ), then buy a good long tube used header like JDL, P&L, Nameless, etc. and use an OFT - big bang for the buck.

nikitopo 02-23-2018 11:21 AM
Very little peak gains on a header that is designed for road and track usage. Only +3whp including the Delicious tune? The only think I like is that the power doesn't drop so fast comparing to the older header, but still too difficult to justify the cost.

Lantanafrs2 02-23-2018 12:40 PM
The gains under the curve are substantial plus the car was road tuned at high altitude. Imo there are gains to be had up top with a little more tuning.

CSG Mike 02-23-2018 12:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048563)
Very little peak gains on a header that is designed for road and track usage. Only +3whp including the Delicious tune? The only think I like is that the power doesn't drop so fast comparing to the older header, but still too difficult to justify the cost.
Area under the curve matters.

https://i.imgur.com/S1FSFSX.jpg

jasonojordan 02-23-2018 12:50 PM
I find it comical how engrossed people are with peak HP/TQ numbers.

This car shows how important dyno graphs really are at showing how these numbers are achieved versus just throwing a number out there.

nikitopo 02-23-2018 01:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3048629)
Area under the curve matters.
That's what I said. I like that power doesn't drop so fast and this is also important. It is just that I cannot justify the total cost. Maybe it is just me.

strat61caster 02-23-2018 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048650)
It is just that I cannot justify the total cost. Maybe it is just me.
The car has been out 6 years and the aftermarket has been settled for nearly 5 years once FI proved viable.
<$3k = NA only, max ~30hp gainz
$4k+ = FI, user decides on risk/reliability

It's not the 90's any more and nobody can break the laws of physics. Lots of people won't shell out for this package, some will, so what?
Props to Justin for throwing the dynos out there, I wish more people would.
:cheers:

jasonojordan 02-23-2018 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048650)
That's what I said. I like that power doesn't drop so fast and this is also important. It is just that I cannot justify the total cost. Maybe it is just me.
Either I am not understanding you correctly or maybe your confused?

Area under the curve that mike is reffering to is the massssive gains the header has over pretty much every other header on the market in the area you spend most of your time driving the car(2500-5500rpm).

That said it is great that it does not drop off ontop as much as most headers do showing that it not only is capable for every day driving but also as a ring the nuts off it race header.

But each of us have different things we look at to justify what is worth it and whats not.

I think most people that get bothered by people who come along and say this header is not worth it are people who have never driven or riden in a car with this header and are only formulating their opinion based on peak hp and tq numbers. (Not saying you are one of these people at all just a matter of fact statement)

nikitopo 02-23-2018 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonojordan (Post 3048659)
Area under the curve that mike is reffering to is the massssive gains the header has over pretty much every other header on the market in the area you spend most of your time driving the car(2500-5500rpm).
I don't consider a gain something that was deliberately left from the factory like this. The purpose of the dip was to give great fuel efficiency by running lean on purpose in that range, where it is often used for cruising and in-town driving.


I am also critic on the high end gains, because this particular header costs something like twice the price of an ordinary aftermarket header. If you consider additionally the Ecutek licence and tune, the price goes close to the 3k territory. If the tune was provided for free in the price of the header, then we could have a discussion. :thumbsup:

bfrank1972 02-23-2018 02:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonojordan (Post 3048659)
Area under the curve that mike is reffering to is the massssive gains the header has over pretty much every other header on the market in the area you spend most of your time driving the car(2500-5500rpm).
Mmmmhhhh..... evidence please? Revworks is a decent header but definitely not top tier.... Even then, I wouldn't say the gains are "massive", better for sure. Now let's talk about a header like PTuning, or one of the other top tier headers out there - maybe ACE will still come out on top regarding the low end, but my gut says it will be pretty close actually.

jasonojordan 02-23-2018 02:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 (Post 3048689)
Mmmmhhhh..... evidence please? Revworks is a decent header but definitely not top tier.... Even then, I wouldn't say the gains are "massive", better for sure. Now let's talk about a header like PTuning, or one of the other top tier headers out there - maybe ACE will still come out on top regarding the low end, but my gut says it will be pretty close actually.
Of the headers I have seen data on the only other header that came close was the Namless header.

There is a thread that compares 4 different headers (albeit on 4 diff cars with diff exhaust mods).

The picture links are all dead in that thread unfortunately.

NoHaveMSG 02-23-2018 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048686)
I don't consider a gain something that was deliberately left from the factory like this. The purpose of the dip was to give great fuel efficiency by running lean on purpose in that range, where it is often used for cruising and in-town driving.
Then why does an OTS tune on a stock car not get rid of the dip if that is the reason for it?


Pretty much stock car with OTS tunes. Still has dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47001

Lantanafrs2 02-23-2018 02:36 PM
Also note how the long tube header inverts the dip on the graph actually creating a small hump in the torque curve.

bfrank1972 02-23-2018 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonojordan (Post 3048704)
Of the headers I have seen data on the only other header that came close was the Namless header.

There is a thread that compares 4 different headers (albeit on 4 diff cars with diff exhaust mods).

The picture links are all dead in that thread unfortunately.
Yeah I've run into the same issue - even then it's hard to compare on dynos, on different days. You can sort-of make a comparison by looking at the general shape of the torque curve, and if both graphs have true stock baselines you can draw some general conclusions there by comparing percentage gains over the power band, but even then there's a lot of variables.

Anyways I probably shouldn't spend so much of my time comparing 86 header results lol - it's not like either one will let us keep up with that stock mustang 5.0 :)

jasonojordan 02-23-2018 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfrank1972 (Post 3048724)
Yeah I've run into the same issue - even then it's hard to compare on dynos, on different days. You can sort-of make a comparison by looking at the general shape of the torque curve, and if both graphs have true stock baselines you can draw some general conclusions there by comparing percentage gains over the power band, but even then there's a lot of variables.

Anyways I probably shouldn't spend so much of my time comparing 86 header results lol - it's not like either one will let us keep up with that stock mustang 5.0 :)
You are correct. At the end of the day its still a NA 2.0L

Short of force induction there is no way to add substantial amounts of power. That said I am happy with where my car is now with the header and e85 tune as I knew it was "low on power" when I bought it.

Jordan Silveira 02-23-2018 02:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3047943)
gains per dollar are actually quote good, when you consider:

- Ace + ecutek cable/dongle + license + tune

vs

- Other header + ecutek cable/dongle + license + tune.
I'd actually love to know and see how the Ace Header 350 (seeing how it's often crowned the king of header choices) compares to the Fujitsubo SuperEX EL Catted Exhaust Manifold (comes with the OP included too).

jasonojordan 02-23-2018 02:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jordan Silveira (Post 3048740)
I'd actually love to know and see how the Ace Header 350 (seeing how it's often crowned the king of header choices) compares to the Fujitsubo SuperEX EL Catted Exhaust Manifold (comes with the OP included too).
I would expect less gains if nothing else strictly because it still has a cat.

That said I have seen no dyno graphs from this header.

Jordan Silveira 02-23-2018 03:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonojordan (Post 3048742)
I would expect less gains if nothing else strictly because it still has a cat.

That said I have seen no dyno graphs from this header.
Yeah I think that's a fair hypothesis. Granted I think it would be interesting to see how much the cat holds it back in comparison to ACE.

The reason I brought up this specific header is just due to price and the oh so popular ideal of "you get what you pay for". Granted I believe if you asked Fujitsubo, the SuperEX price of 2600 would speak more to their quality of work and materials insofar as weld points and keeping it relatively quiet.

Conversely, ACE would speak to their focus being all out performance (I assume of course).

Anyways, the only person I've seen dyno it is DSOmegaX and he had the SuperEX header/OP, Fujitsubo FP, Stock Midpipe, and STI Sports Muffler. I believe he was a couple ponies shy of 200 to the wheels.

nikitopo 02-23-2018 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3048714)
Then why does an OTS tune on a stock car not get rid of the dip if that is the reason for it?


Pretty much stock car with OTS tunes. Still has dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47001
The dip was created delibaretely by factory tune and hardware. Not just with tune.

The blue line below is the torque curve of the "mother" engine. It is the FB20 engine which was used as a base to design our engine. My daily car has this engine and it has no torque dip at all. Do you see any dip in the curve? Do you think they could avoid the dip in the older engine and not in the newer?

http://i64.tinypic.com/2up4o04.jpg

NoHaveMSG 02-23-2018 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048775)
The dip was created delibaretely by factory tune and hardware. Not just with tune.

The blue line below is the torque curve of the "mother" engine. It is the FB20 engine which was used as a base to design our engine. My daily car has this engine and it has no torque dip at all. Do you see any dip in the curve? Do you think they could avoid the dip in the older engine and not in the newer?

http://i64.tinypic.com/2up4o04.jpg
Showing me an FB20 is not apples to apples. I linked you some dyno's to stock FA20 with tune. Show me the same with no dip. And like what has already been shown, plenty of cars that have headers and a tune, still have a dip.

Kordless 02-23-2018 04:49 PM
Without dynoing the car, I love my ACE A/350 with Delicious Flex Fuel and tune. The car feels so much better than any other header and words above the stock header. I took off my Supercharger recently and I'm actually surprised how much power this car still has. Butt Dyno is satisfied. Numbers aren't everything, after all, did you buy a 86/BRZ based on the numbers? Thought so. ;)

Jordan Silveira 02-23-2018 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kordless (Post 3048829)
Without dynoing the car, I love my ACE A/350 with Delicious Flex Fuel and tune. The car feels so much better than any other header and words above the stock header. I took off my Supercharger recently and I'm actually surprised how much power this car still has. Butt Dyno is satisfied. Numbers aren't everything, after all, did you buy a 86/BRZ based on the numbers? Thought so. ;)
Man I wish I could test drive your car. I'm dying to know what a tune from Delicious and headers from Ace or elsewhere would do to this car.

bfrank1972 02-23-2018 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kordless (Post 3048829)
Without dynoing the car, I love my ACE A/350 with Delicious Flex Fuel and tune. The car feels so much better than any other header and words above the stock header. I took off my Supercharger recently and I'm actually surprised how much power this car still has. Butt Dyno is satisfied. Numbers aren't everything, after all, did you buy a 86/BRZ based on the numbers? Thought so. ;)
lol this statement implies you have driven an 86 configured with every other header on the market :D

n0thing 02-23-2018 07:04 PM
I wish there's a comparison between ACE 350 & 150. The latter yields more top end and less low end, but really by how much?

Code Monkey 02-23-2018 07:13 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Here is my virtual dyno. Don't look at the numbers which are obviously wrong (I had to select a 2014 BRZ and changed the final drive to 4.3) but just look at the hp and tq curves.

CSG Mike 02-23-2018 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Code Monkey (Post 3048931)
Here is my virtual dyno. Don't look at the numbers which are obviously wrong (I had to select a 2014 BRZ and changed the final drive to 4.3) but just look at the hp and tq curves.
How does it subjectively feel?

Code Monkey 02-23-2018 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3048947)
How does it subjectively feel?
Light, quick, and peppy. Step on the throttle anywhere over 2500 rpms and it just starts pulling. I should be able to take hairpins at COTA in 3rd gear now. :)

Irace86.2.0 02-23-2018 08:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3048714)
Then why does an OTS tune on a stock car not get rid of the dip if that is the reason for it?


Pretty much stock car with OTS tunes. Still has dip.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47001
If my theory from earlier holds any water then the reason why a tune can't fix the dip alone is because the motor will try to avoid knock regardless of the basic parameters set by the tune, and knock may be problematic on some high compression NA motors at low rpms where slow exhaust speeds increase combustion chamber temperatures from residual exhaust gases.

If my theory is true then trying to hard tune out the dip without a header could be dangerous or increase the chance of engine knock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3048805)
Showing me an FB20 is not apples to apples. I linked you some dyno's to stock FA20 with tune. Show me the same with no dip. And like what has already been shown, plenty of cars that have headers and a tune, still have a dip.
The FB20 is a stroked FA20 (minus port injection). The FB20 has a lower compression, so it would make a good apples to apples comparison for comparing the effects of compression ratio on low end torque (to demonstrate my theory true or false), but it isn't a good apples to apples comparison because the engine is undersquare (longer stroke and smaller piston diameter than our square setup). Usually a stroked motor will have more low end torque, so any dip alleviation from not being as high compressed could just as likely be from being stroked. Thus, I agree with you that the FB20 isn't an apples to apples comparison for my theory or for his theory.

CSG Mike 02-23-2018 09:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3048973)
If my theory from earlier holds any water then the reason why a tune can't fix the dip alone is because the motor will try to avoid knock regardless of the basic parameters set by the tune, and knock may be problematic on some high compression NA motors at low rpms where slow exhaust speeds increase combustion chamber temperatures from residual exhaust gases.

If my theory is true then trying to hard tune out the dip without a header could be dangerous or increase the chance of engine knock.



The FB20 is a stroked FA20 (minus port injection). The FB20 has a lower compression, so it would make a good apples to apples comparison for comparing the effects of compression ratio on low end torque (to demonstrate my theory true or false), but it isn't a good apples to apples comparison because the engine is undersquare (longer stroke and smaller piston diameter than our square setup). Usually a stroked motor will have more low end torque, so any dip alleviation from not being as high compressed could just as likely be from being stroked. Thus, I agree with you that the FB20 isn't an apples to apples comparison for my theory or for his theory.
It doesn't.

A stock FA20 tuned on Motec, still exhibits the dip.

Irace86.2.0 02-23-2018 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikitopo (Post 3048775)
The dip was created deliberately by factory tune and hardware. Not just with tune.

The blue line below is the torque curve of the "mother" engine. It is the FB20 engine which was used as a base to design our engine. My daily car has this engine and it has no torque dip at all. Do you see any dip in the curve? Do you think they could avoid the dip in the older engine and not in the newer?
I don't know if they did it for economy. It is certainly possible, and I have even said that same theory in the past, but it was only conjecture. What evidence is there for that? If they cared so much about mileage to create a torque dip then why would they change the final drive on the 2017 to be more aggressive?

I'm of the belief that the torque dip is a product of a 12.5:1 compression motor trying to avoid knock, something that could be alleviated with a long tube catless header, but they need a precat, and they need to heat the precat fast during cold starts for emissions, something that a long tube header doesn't allow.

Irace86.2.0 02-23-2018 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 3048995)
It doesn't.

A stock FA20 tuned on Motec, still exhibits the dip.
Sorry, I'm fairly naive about the details of tuning...

Are you saying the Motec system doesn't use the knock sensors to automatically adjust timing/etc to avoid knock?...that the Motec system only runs on set parameters like open tune only (maf only)?...did I butcher that?

Lantanafrs2 02-23-2018 09:23 PM
At least we know the solution. Imo Toyota could come out and explain the torque curve to us and we'd still argue it. For whatever reason, the oem header was/is a compromise.

NoHaveMSG 02-23-2018 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3048973)
If my theory from earlier holds any water then the reason why a tune can't fix the dip alone is because the motor will try to avoid knock regardless of the basic parameters set by the tune, and knock may be problematic on some high compression NA motors at low rpms where slow exhaust speeds increase combustion chamber temperatures from residual exhaust gases.

If my theory is true then trying to hard tune out the dip without a header could be dangerous or increase the chance of engine knock.



The FB20 is a stroked FA20 (minus port injection). The FB20 has a lower compression, so it would make a good apples to apples comparison for comparing the effects of compression ratio on low end torque (to demonstrate my theory true or false), but it isn't a good apples to apples comparison because the engine is undersquare (longer stroke and smaller piston diameter than our square setup). Usually a stroked motor will have more low end torque, so any dip alleviation from not being as high compressed could just as likely be from being stroked. Thus, I agree with you that the FB20 isn't an apples to apples comparison for my theory or for his theory.
I am aware of the differences in the FB20 and not fully discrediting your opinion because there is merit to the idea. I'm just making observations based on the charts I have seen.

E85 is much more knock resistant. Still has dip.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52326

It is pretty easy to discredit the thought that the factory tune causes the dip, when tuned cars still have it.

There is so much more that we don't have answers for so there are a lot of assumptions. I know bore to stroke changes VE. We also do not know how the FB is cammed vs the FA which would also play a large role. I have a feeling it is significantly different just based on what red line is between the two.

Harey 02-23-2018 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 (Post 3049009)
At least we know the solution. Imo Toyota could come out and explain the torque curve to us and we'd still argue it. For whatever reason, the oem header was/is a compromise.
Correct, either way it's not just in the tune as someone else said previously. In another thread on here all they did was punch out the internals of the cat and torque dip was gone. Don't think it gets any more conclusive than that.

Lantanafrs2 02-23-2018 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049001)
I don't know if they did it for economy. It is certainly possible, and I have even said that same theory in the past, but it was only conjecture. What evidence is there for that? If they cared so much about mileage to create a torque dip then why would they change the final drive on the 2017 to be more aggressive?

I'm of the belief that the torque dip is a product of a 12.5:1 compression motor trying to avoid knock, something that could be alleviated with a long tube catless header, but they need a precat, and they need to heat the precat fast during cold starts for emissions, something that a long tube header doesn't allow.
Best theory I've heard however I had a catted el header that took care of the torque curve. Only issue was a power reduction below 3 grand.

gtengr 02-24-2018 12:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049001)
I'm of the belief that the torque dip is a product of a 12.5:1 compression motor trying to avoid knock,
If this were true, wouldn't it be easily recognizable when datalogging the stock car at WOT, and be readily accepted by this point?

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoHaveMSG (Post 3049032)
I am aware of the differences in the FB20 and not fully discrediting your opinion because there is merit to the idea. I'm just making observations based on the charts I have seen.

E85 is much more knock resistant. Still has dip.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52326

It is pretty easy to discredit the thought that the factory tune causes the dip, when tuned cars still have it.

There is so much more that we don't have answers for so there are a lot of assumptions. I know bore to stroke changes VE. We also do not know how the FB is cammed vs the FA which would also play a large role. I have a feeling it is significantly different just based on what red line is between the two.
I would say that does throw a wrinkle in things because E85 does reduce knock and does decrease temperatures. Maybe all it is then is the poor flowing cat and header.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lantanafrs2 (Post 3049048)
Best theory I've heard however I had a catted el header that took care of the torque curve. Only issue was a power reduction below 3 grand.
High flow cat though, right? Dyno?

Irace86.2.0 02-24-2018 12:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gtengr (Post 3049070)
If this were true, wouldn't it be easily recognizable when datalogging the stock car at WOT, and be readily accepted by this point?
Like what would be seen during datalogging?...can you data log residual exhaust gases in the combustion chamber, or exhaust escape velocity out the headers? Really, I dunno, can you?

gtengr 02-24-2018 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irace86.2.0 (Post 3049076)
Like what would be seen during datalogging?
You would look at everything related to ignition timing and see that the engine is protecting itself from knock during the torque dip if your theory was true.


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