twins vs last gen cayman?
 

for anyone who changed from a twin over to a last generation cayman (not the s), how do you find the difference in driving experience? it seems like it would be somewhat familiar, with 275 hp and 213 tq - that youd need to wring the power out in revs and that you'd really have fun throwing it around corners. and certainly its a more expensive car, but a few year old model is around the price of most new entry level luxury sedans/crossovers these days..

i really enjoy my brz and it provides tons of joy, but just thinking of what the next car will be when it comes time!

that 213 torque is yummy. Every 20 torque is a huge thing in cars of our size and weight. imagine 60 more torque! I am not helping much as I never drove one, but that car seems badass. the 2006 Mini cooper s has just about 191 torque and it really is powerful, everyone was surprised who drove it. 2750 lbs about and with that torque it was great.

Just curious, but why not spring for the S? It seems like it would be worth the extra cost.

The last generation is a 4-cyl turbo and outputs 300 hp. Are you thinking on this one or the previous generation with the 6-cyl engine and the 275 hp?

Just boost your car. I waited 2.5 years to do it so It feels like I owned 2 cars because of that.

I drove an older model boxster and a cayman... Just not lastest gen ones.
And it’s a similar car in terms of the driving dynamics. Engaging, fun, and good quality (even the older 2 I drove). The roof down on a sunny day was great fun, but I’d own a cayman rather (more practical and a smidge better to drive).

Personally going to keep my twin for a long time and have fun modding it and enjoying it for what it is - a brilliant rwd platform!

Hopefully in time when I am ready I can afford a new Porsche too :thumbup:

my *want* combination of having the newest model year for a price that is actually realistic leads to the regular and not the S. i'm pretty happy with the power on my lightly modded brz and im pretty sure that i would feel totally fine with the power on the regular as well.

i was thinking about the 981 previous gen not the 718 current gen.

The last generation is just that, the last. They are referred to as 981's and had naturally aspirated flat 6 engines. The CURRENT generation is the 718, with 4 cylinder engines. Technically they're 982's but I don't know anyone that calls them that.

Yes, I got his point. I also prefer the 981's with the flat 6 engine. I've seen the current ones and although they are faster, they look cheaper to me.

I think they look awesome. Like a baby Ferrari or something. I'll probably be looking for a current generation S at some point when they become the previous generation.

I have been thinking the same. I love the BRZ and I am disenchanted with the current vehicles available in the market that meet my wishes, but the Cayman (S) might be it...or the next electrified BRZ :)

Agreed. I think it looks cheaper because they simplified the front lower fascia. Used to have a more complex look to it. And the rear end treatment is a bit tacky/gimmicky. They're not selling well, so I wouldn't count on them having much depreciation in a few years time. Especially the Cayman, which is Porsche's smallest volume model. And the added complexity that comes with the flat four (2 stage intercooler system, active engine mounts) are not maintenance items I would want to have to deal with. I'd run far far away from that.

The flat four powered 718 isn't really THAT much faster than the old naturally aspirated flat 6 models either. Even more so if you equip both with a manual transmission (the turbo engine can take more advantage of the PDK transmission). Both will reach 60 mph in the low 4s and top out over 170 mph. The sound of the flat 6 screaming behind your head is worth a few tenths of a second penalty over the pedestrian flat 4 rumble. And don't forget the 718 gained around 100 lb of curb weight over the 981.:thumbdown: The Cayman S C&D tested at Lightning Lap weighed 3162 lb. My 987 S weighs around 200 lb less.

I agree with all of these statements but one thing to keep in mind when thinking about the 718's flat 4 turbo is potential with just a tune.

I haven't looked into what tuning there is for them but generally a factory turbo car will make pretty impressive gains with just a tune and even more with exhaust components whereas a NA car will struggle to get very much from it.

Meh, I'll take a healthy NA 6 cylinder over a high-strung 4 cylinder any day.

Unlike a Subaru, Porsche replacement engines and transmissions are obscenely expensive. $15-20k for an engine, $10k for a transmission - roughly speaking. Sure they're strong, but personally I wouldn't crank up the boost like it's some inexpensive (relative) Japanese manufacturer engine.

Have you ever owned a car with the boost cranked up?

imho it's not all it's cracked up to be, yeah the dyno numbers look impressive but the lack of responsiveness is underwhelming to me. Riding the 'boost wave of torque/power' is certainly fun but that's not what I enjoy out of a car and certainly not what I would buy a Porsche for (despite the 930's reputation).

If I ever own a turbo car I probably won't do more than a catback exhaust, which on some cars opens up a noticeable amount of power.

Yes I have, Prior to owning my FRS I had a Audi A4 with the 1.8t. Stock the car is sluggish as hell and no fun to drive at all. and with 170chp 170ctq how could it be. But with just a tune on a otherwise stock car it bumped it to 215chp and 250ctq. And the actual gains were under the curve. The car now made peak torque around 2.5k rpms and held it all the way to 5k. It was 1000 times better than the stock car and was by far a much greater difference than my FRS going from stock to e85 header tune with full exhuast.

That wasn't even the end of it as just by putting in a cat delete, bigger injectors, and an e85 tune the tuner quoted it as making 250chp and over 300ctq now if a 80hp and 130tq bump from very simple bolt ons and tune aren't impressive I don't know what you will think is.

I completely understand this. That is why you don't go crazy putting a big turbo on one. A reflash tune from a reputable and top of the line tuner will not cause any issues. It's the same as with any car. The tuner has tested the limits of stock equipment and will dial it back for a safe and enjoyable upgrade.

I don't doubt the gainz bro

I doubt how rewarding and fun it is to drive around a corner when you've got monster lag to get back to maximum power.

If it's the stock turbo, there's no more lag with an aggressive tune than there was when everything was 100% stock. In fact, there may be less. There may be more perception of lag simply because running more boost results in higher peak power, but there's no reason running more pressure from the same compressor would somehow result in more lag.

Yes, that is what I mean, I don't find that an enjoyable experience, while I know many seem happy with that kind of setup it doesn't please me and I know there are a few who agree.

There's no lag to the original boost/power levels, but you've likely upgraded the grip available as well which means that no-lag to stock boost/power is irrelevant, it's now the lag to the increased power that's of concern. It takes longer to spool to the new maximum boost than the old maximum boost, you can't break the laws of physics no matter how good the tune is.

Edit: A different driving style makes this not a problem, early back to the gas, left foot braking while still on the gas to keep the boost up, whatever, I just don't really like it. Some do, that's fine, but I bought into the hype of 'just crank up the boost, it's great!' until I tried to drive fast with a car tuned like that. I just didn't really like it and I think it's worth asking when someone starts beating that drum. It's one of the reasons I'm very happy with my FR-S.

:iono:

I think, I've finally decided to boost the Fr-s and you post this...:cry:

Well my experience isn't in an FA20, just because I'm not a huge fan of boost doesn't mean you won't be, and my experience is primarily turbo based, supers may be up my alley. Best of luck.

:thumbsup:

Okay I get what your saying now. Yes a turbo car can have a noticeable amount of lag depending on the size of the turbo to displacement. From my experience in the B6 A4 came with one of the smallest turbo's in existence and spooled essentially instantly. As long as I was above 2.5k I would mash the throttle and instantly feel the torque. The lag that was there I'd equate to the instant you hit the pedal I had 85% of torque, then that last 15% would come in over a short 1/4 - 1/2 second period.

I actually think it equates very well to a motor like the fa20 where all the power is at redline. Rather than feeling the power build as you push to the limiter you feel it build in the mid range just quickly and then it eventually dies off up top (downside of a small fast spooling turbo). At least in my driving it was felt like a similar sensation especially with slightly bigger turbo like in my friends sti. The longer amount of lag allowed the torque to build up in a natural and smooth way just like a high sprung NA motor just earlier on in the power band.

What you wrote rings true to my ears. Unfortunately, I still feel the car is lacking, just a tad...I'm not sure if a header/tune will get it where I'd like it to be. The only way to find out is to go for it. I should go test drive a MY17/18 first.

Just remember to consider running and maintenance cost.

For example, for this same pricing, you can get a c5z06. In general, it is cheap to maintain. However, compared to a BRZ, the amount of oil used, clutch reservoir maintenance and 3x more expensive tires make the running costs far exceed the BRZ.

Also, while I don't have direct experience with the Cayman, I am going to assume the gearing per gear is very wide. This just means the experience you are going to get on the street is going to be very different. All the updated power you aren't really going to be able to use.... or be able to use legally for long. This is something you have to do beyond the honeymoon-phase to understand what the difference really means.

Good luck in your quest.

I'd be curious to see the dyno curves overlaid between the 718 and 981. I would imagine the difference in low and mid range torque would be substantial. Whether or not you care for the aural aspects of the modern turbo 4's you can't deny the improvement in acceleration capability. Lap time magazine comparisons really illustrate the difference.


Lighting Lap:


2014 Cayman S 3:02.6
2917 Cayman S 2:58.3


2017 Honda Civic Si 3:14.6
2017 BRZ 3:19.7


Tuning just increases the disparity if you are willing to roll the dice. I have an APR tune on my wife's TTS and the car runs 0-60 in 3.8 seconds on a V box and will pull bus lengths on my supercharged FRS. Honestly I'd love to have the power delivery from my Audi 2.0l available in the Scion.

SC boost is instant ;)
It’s turbos that generally have lag.

I can't stand the stock gearing of my 987S. All Boxsters/Caymans suffer from that problem. I think 2nd gear in the GT4 tops out around 85 mph. And then on the flip side 5th and 6th gears are kinda short.


At the last track event I went to I spent 70% of the time leaving it in 3rd gear. So boring.

Their gearing is OK and quite similar to 86/BRZ, but they have a long final drive ratio for top speed. It is 3.89 ...

Not an easy task to have a car everywhere optimal and be able to hit 175 mph.

Not sure why you think that. They're really not that similar.

Overall gear ratios (gear x final drive) for a BRZ (pre-2017) are as follows:

1st - 14.866:1
2nd - 8.97
3rd - 6.314
4th - 4.973
5th - 4.10
6th - 3.145

Same for 987 Cayman S:

1st - 12.84 (14% taller)
2nd - 7.57 (16% taller)
3rd - 5.47 (14% taller)
4th - 4.38
5th - 3.76
6th - 3.18

Only thing similar about the two cars are their top gears, and that means even the BRZ is geared for 170 mph:party0030:. It also means the Cayman as a similarly high cruising engine speed, which isn't great for efficiency when that's a 3.4 liter engine lol :bellyroll:.

There's a very simple explanation for why the Cayman's gearing is this tall - so that it's not competitive with the 911. For example, here's the 911's gearing from a year comparable to the above 987. Keeping in mind, that usually a more powerful car (i.e. this 911) has taller gearing:

1st - 13.45
2nd - 7.98
3rd - 5.366
4th - 4.403
5th - 3.715
6th - 3.027

It's quite obvious from comparing the 911 to the Cayman that the Cayman was intentionally given taller 1st and 2nd gears so as to not accelerate as fast (or faster) than a 911.

In fact just about all Cayman S/GTS's use identical ratios, even the Cayman GT4's gear ratios for 1-4 are actually identical to my own car's. Primary difference being the GT4's redline is 600 rpm higher.

Hope I didn't bore anyone with this post. :bonk:

ive definitely read about the wide gearing in porsches before, which would impact driving - but also with an almost 8k redline, i'd probably end up short shifting often on streets anyways. also another reason i'd look towards a base and not a 's' model, more power and usability of that power in non license threatening situations.

Not exactly related, but after owning your Cayman would you ever own another 86, or has the Cayman made you never want to go back?

I probably would have bought a used Cayman a couple years ago if I didn't need to put a baby seat in my car. I still think about buying one though.

I have thought about doing it before, but I would love to have a speed/gear/power graph for a car.

I think this would be better to show that, while you have more horse power, the effective horse power you have at certain speeds is mitigated by the gearing.

While the combined demonstration of acceleration or velocity/time may be more available, i think showing the metrics of available effective power is a better view of what you are sacrificing with more power by longer gearing. However, it should be noted this is why more torque would be more important at lower speeds, as those curves are generally flat.

I am not the requester, but I can tell you with a more powerful car (405hp/400tq) with almost equivalent gearing, yes, I do want to still have a shorter geared/lighter car experience in my life**.

** There are a lot more factors involved other than just metric performance for that reason, however.

Thanks, what are you driving now? Mustang?

Corvette C5 Z06 is one of the vehicles I have which I am making the comparison.

I am looking to sell another car and move into a BRZ with the performance pack or into an older BRZ.

I have a long history of Subarus, however (8+). None currently or directly with FR-S/BRZ other than co-drives. GC/GM6 RS owner ship I think is the most directly comparable.

I can't speak for Wolfpack, though we have both owned and tracked similar cars....but most certainly you may want to go back to a cheaper car, and you should not feel bad about it one bit.

It depends on what you want from a car, purpose, build, etc. I have owned 4 BRZs all in different configurations (not at the same time), and I have owned 5 different Cayman/Boxsters (again, not at the same time). Car buying is not a "financial" progression. Okay, it starts off that way....but I jump all over the place on the financial side of it. I pick platforms that I want to experience and give me an X-factor of some type. I have owned a GT4, its awesome....most capable care I have ever tracked. But, I still love to get into a 15 to 20k BRZ and rip on it. For a number of reasons. Do I dare say that I have more fun in Miatas,BRZs, S2000s than I do some of the Porsches. YEP, I can say that. Now...sometimes only a Porsche will do.

My comments may not make sense to some...probably the younger crowd. So let me put it this way....lets say the Porsche is a supermodel that you finally had a chance to date. Shes hot, makes you feel good, you may even love her....but she is expensive, and costly if things go wrong. Sex is good, but you don't get it very often (cause on the roads you cant exploit the P-cars very well) .....now there is the BRZ. The girl next door. Pretty, athletic, APPROACHABLE, and truly loves you without needing to empty your wallet.

I say experience both, as for which you prefer.....its personal taste...and I promise your taste will change and evolve. But, don't ever think that you should only move up the money ladder when buying cars. That's too boring.
A Porsche can do a lot of things that the BRZ can't, but the BRZ has great points to be made that a Porsche can't touch either.

Hoep that makes sense.

Oh yeah, I totally get what you mean. I've driven/owned cars a lot faster than my FRS and I think a lot of my friends were confused when I bought one new. To them it looked like I was moving backwards when I could have bought an almost new Mustang GT or 335i for the same price. I've owned a lot of cars over the years and I could quickly tell that the 86 platform was something special in its own right.


But, I wasn't sure if the Cayman was basically a BRZ+. For example, I used to own a 1998 Neon ACR. It was loads of fun for what it was, and great to daily drive. A couple years later I found a bone stock 1999 GSR for sale and bought it. The Integra ruined the Neon for me. It was everything the ACR tried to be, and more. I wasn't sure if I would get a similar feeling if I ever bought a Cayman. Before I bought my FRS I rented an Elise for a week to see if I wanted one. Sure it was a blast, but I still picked the FRS at the end of the day. They similar cars, but completely different at the same time.


Thanks for your input. I have never driven a S2000 or Cayman, but they are on my bucket list of cars to drive for sure.

I actually have considered making a switch back to the BRZ. I like the way it looks, love that it's slightly more practical, and I would feel less guilty racking up mileage on a BRZ. Shifting between gears is more enjoyable in the BRZ as well. But I really, really don't like the FA20 engine. The Cayman's flat six power and smoothness is addictive, and gets taken for granted of by me way more than it should.

I suppose that, ideally, if I found a well sorted BRZ that already had forced induction I would definitely consider it. In the near future I want to participate in more HPDEs and I think that would be easier to do with a BRZ than my older Cayman. I also sometimes think about going back to an S2000. Problem there is that I really don't fit in that car. To be comfortable in one I'd have to put in an aftermarket seat with lowered rails. And to track it I'd also have to install a rollbar, which if tall enough to protect me, would be too tall for the soft top to work. So it would basically be a hardtop only coupe at that point. Thus that's unlikely to happen.

And then there's my wildcard option, my unicorn. An LS swapped FD RX7...:drool:

All this though, is not to say I haven't enjoyed ownership of my Porsche. I love the looks, I love the handling, I love the power, and the steering directness and feel is out of this world! It's been relatively maintenance free, as I've only needed to have it at the dealership once over the last 4 years. Problem is, the car is now almost 12 years old and just a few thousand miles from cracking the 100,000 mile mark. I'm 95% certain the car is still on it's original clutch and that's a $3000 job at a shop (and I don't have the skill set for that work). And then the shocks and suspension bushings are starting to show their age...ugh.

IF (big IF) Honda came out with a new S2000 (that wasn't some hybrid-dual clutch transmission only powertrain) or Subaru came out with a turbo BRZ I would consider either very seriously as replacements for the Cayman.