Transmission noise
 

Decided to put the whole story here.
First want to clarify a few things.
I'm from here so I'm trying my best to describe the noise I heard.
This post is about my experience with my 86 which I bought in November 2017, so yes it's gonna be subjective.
It's my DD and I commute to work every day (~80 miles drive per day).
From time to time I would go to the canyon to have some fun drive but NEVER do burnout or abuse my car.
This car is not my first manual and I'm confident to say I know how to drive a stick.
So here is my story:

At around 5,000 miles on the car, I noticed something wrong with the car and here are the problems:
1) When I shifted from 1st to 2nd or from 2nd to 3rd, the shifter popped out
2) Sometimes when the car were at speed, I could't change gear even though the clutch was fully depressed (example: rolling toward a stop sign and tried to shift into 1st at 5 mph)
3) When accelerate slowly from still, the back of the engine/ transmission area would make some "Dadadada" noise (example: hit a plastic handhold fan with your finger tip)
4) When accelerate from cruising, the back of the engine/ transmission would make some "clicking" noise for about half a second then it will go away, and it occurs more often when the car is warm (example: engine noise from an old car, like it has not lubrication)
So I dropped off my car at the dealership in Ontario, CA couple times and the master tech decided to take the transmission off to have a look.
He found that there is wear on bearings and the spring is loose, and he believes the loose spring was the cause of all problems
The parts he replaced:
SU003-00803 Fork, Clutch Release
SU003-07349 Bearing, Release
SU003-00805 Support, Release Fork
SU003-00806 Clip
SU003-00804 Spring
SU003-00799 Disk Compl-Clutch
After the repair, I noticed a HUGE improvement on shifting. No more shifter popping out or tough shifting when car was at speed.
So problem 1,2,3 were solve, but problem number 4 didn't go away.

At about 15,000 miles, I noticed there was a new problem:
5) Loud noise when the car was in gear and speed, and I release the gas pedal (example: the noise and movement you will hear/feel when driving in 1st gear, like the engine is moving forth and back)
I think it's getting louder than before so I dropped my car off again and also ask them to check on the problem 4 noise.
The technician believed that the problem 5 noise was a sign of fault transmission and decided to replace my transmission.
Side note: the funny thing is later on I test drove a new 86 and the new car was actually making the same noise
He told me that the problem 4 noise could also come from transmission.
After the transmission replacement, everything got way WORSE.
Problem 1-3 came back, problem 4-5 didn't go away, and I found something new ( or I think it was a problem):
6) When clutch is fully depressed and I shift into gear from neutral normally, I could feel resistance
7) When clutch is fully depressed and I shifted into gear slowly, the gears are grinding
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfJ68LpqMB8"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfJ68LpqMB8[/ame]

I tried to ask the foreman about it and he basically told me the noise is normal and he didn't want to spend more time to find a solution for problem 4

At around 20,000 miles, I felt like I should get everything sorted before the warranty expire (later I was told the transmission is warranted until 60k).
So I dropped off my car at a dealership in Orange, CA and asked them to work on it.
Took them a week to inspect and wait for the FTS to test drive it.
After a week I was told they couldn't duplicate the noise and I had to go in person to test drive with the shop foreman.
The shop foreman told me the grinding is normal and that's how transmission functions (honestly still not very convinced about it)
But he found the problem 4 noise weird, and he thought a new clutch would resolve the problem.
So they kept the car for another to order the parts and replace them. After the second week got a call from the foreman.
And he told me the clutch didn't fix the noise and they wanted to take longer time to inspect it and potentially pull the engine out to see if it was a fault engine.
Waited couple days and got a call back. The shop foreman was able to duplicate the noise consistently and he recorded it and sent the video to Toyota.
Toyota asked them to do a few more testing before pulling out the engine, they did but found nothing, and Toyota gave them authorization to pull the engine out, tear it apart, and inspect it.
After talking to the foreman, I decided it's time to proceed with the lemon law and filed a case with Toyota.

On 10/3/2017, I called the foreman and he told me that they didn't find anything conclusive, but they believe it's a fault engine and they are going to replace the whole engine.
On 10/4/2017, I was told that the engine was shipped and I should have my car back by next week, but no they are not sure the new engine will fix it.

Things that I'm very certain about:
SU003-00804 Spring fixed the shifting problem at the 1st repair
Both the shop foreman and Toyota Corporate found the problem 4 noise weird and may potentially be a sign of a fault engine
They rather put in something new than tear it apart and find out what is wrong, and that's why i got a new transmission and engine

That noise is the gears grinding. You've figured out how to slip past the blocking ring without engaging the gear.

Not sure what you mean by "slip pass the blocking ring", did you mean there should be a ring to prevent it to happen, or did you mean I break it? They recently replaced the transmission under warranty but I feel like the transmission problem got worse than before...

The blocking ring is the part of the syncro which is what most people call the syncro. Do a google image search on "blocking ring" or "balk ring." Below is a picture of a transmission from 1939. The principle has not changed at all. That thing in between the blocking rings is what slides back and forth to change gears. As it sits in this photo, it's in neutral.

http://www.35pickup.com/Trans/Trans4.jpg

The gear synchronizer is a pretty complicated mechanism. Shifting into gear is actually a two-step process. In the first step, you are pushing the syncro sleeve against the blocking ring which is actually one side of a little clutch. (in the functional sense, not the clutch between the engine and transmission) The other side of the clutch is the gear itself.

So when you push against the blocking ring, it "blocks" the sleeve from engaging the gear until they are no longer spinning relative to each other. Then, when both sides match, it lets the sleeve pass through.

If you shift too slowly or gently, you can match up and just get past the blocking ring. Then, because you are no longer applying pressure, it can no longer do its job as a clutch to hold the two sides in place. That's when you get the classic "grinding the gears."

If you have a new transmission, your concern makes sense. Many of us have noticed that the "clutching" or "blocking" action (whatever that's called. iono) of the syncros take a looooong time to break in. My shifting was crunchy and notchy for about 10,000 miles. No kidding. Lots of people get impatient and play with different fluids. That's why (IMHO) you see so many posts claiming the transmission sucked until they replaced the fluid and how brand Y is so much better than X...

When shifting, a "ker-plunk" little crunch is not necessarily a bad thing. Don't ease up on the gearshift halfway through because that's when you get the grind. If you miss the shift, pull back into neutral and go again in a full motion.

Dropped my car off this morning at a different dealership around home. Apparently they don't think the noise is normal when we were test driving but they will need more time to diagnose the problem and will update me on Monday.


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Keep us posted.

Will do.


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I have the same issue/concern with 94600+ miles with factory trans fluid. Im not to well versed on transmissions, i just know it sucks when i grind gears after a smooth shift from one gear to another. Had toyota check the car on multiple occasions but they say its fine. Not too sure what to do at this point.

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So they have to keep the car for longer until the regional manager visit their shop. Test drive with the technician today and he found the noises strange too. Will keep you guys posted.


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put motul in it first.

Update: Got a call from the dealership today and they told me the car was ready to pick up. Nothing wrong and no weird noises when the regional manager test drove it. Went to pick up my car and test drove a new 86, the foreman wasn't able to duplicate the noises and basically he said his hands are tied because Toyota has already replaced the transmission once and after that any repair will be up to the regional managers decision. After they rinsed my car we went to have a test drive on my car, and I was able to duplicate a clicking noise(whenever I accelerate from cruising at around 2500rpm) and he agrees that it's weird and will see if they can replace the clutch under warranty, but no guarantee. This foreman seems a lot more helpful than the one in Ontario, at least he would listen to what I say and wouldn't say the twins is "a sportcar that is supposed to make all kinds of noises"


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They already replaced your transmission? How many miles did you have on it when they replaced it and how many miles on the replaced transmission before you got the noise?

It had about 20k miles when they replaced the transmission, and it started making noises right after the replacement.


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What happen that caused an transmission replacement at 20k?

Well they will cover anything related to it as they did the work and the work is under warranty. I hope it gets sorted soon for you.

The replacement was done because some weird rumble noise the transmission made when the car was cruising at low speed, which both the new transmission and the new 86 were making the same noise so it's normal I guess. I honestly think they were tired of me and just fuk it and gave me a new tranny so I would stop complaining lol. But my main concern before they replaced the transmission was the clicking noise, it's some noise that the transmission makes when accelerate from cruising at around 2500rpm.

It's a new car so it's under warranty and they have to fix it. When it was in getting checked and you did a test drive of another did you notice the same noise or problem?

I could feel something from the shifter when shifting into third when we were test driving the new car, but the it doesn't make any of the noises that I was talking about. The dealership said if they can't get the clutch replaced under warranty then I would have to wait until the situation got worse😑


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Update:
New clutch didn't resolve the problem....at all, and they didn't find anything conclusive from the oil pan to show it internal damage to the engine. The shop foreman then called Toyota Corporate and they asked him to do a few more inspections today before pulling out the engine and tear it apart. I already told the foreman I would probably lemon the car, will see what happen today.


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Update:
Toyota gave authorization to the dealership to pull the engine out and do the inspection. They are still not sure what's wrong with it but it will take at least another week or longer. Told the foreman that I want to lemon the car and filed a case with Toyota.

Update: They still couldn’t find anything conclusive so they decided to drop a new engine in.


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well that was unexpected

Interesting

Honestly I think many people from here may have the same problem as mine but they were told by others or their dealership that "the noise is normal" or "our cars are supposed to make weird noise". Who define what noise is normal? The field technical specialist? Of course they would always say it's normal because they work for Toyota. I was told by different technicians and FTS that the noise my car made is normal or they couldn't duplicate the noise. Until this time a foreman from a different dealership test drove the car with me and found the noise weird. He recorded the noise in a video and sent it to Toyota and they agreed that something is wrong with the engine.

honestly I think there is a lot of fuss made over the sounds of our twins. they make a lot of noises, some pleasant, some not. the only time i would ever be worried is when something mechanically feels wrong (car not revving, shift lever won't go in, etc) which you've yet to point out

is this your first car and/or first with a MT? After reading the thread I'm still not sure how your 1st trans broke by 20 K. hard to see the fault being on the car/trans especially considering this is an updated 86 :s

Well the OP with the video shows you intentionally grinding the gears, that's not a fault of the transmission that's operator error.

It sounds like they're trying to fix a 'click' now as described in post #11 of which no further description is offered. Without further description it's hard to tell what's happening let alone offer advice or sympathy.

fwiw there is a clicking nose associated with the throttle body that is totally normal but can be alarming depending on how sensitive you are.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...20&postcount=3

Personally I'm impressed you found a dealer willing to go to such lengths to help you. And it's entirely possible that I and others are misreading your situation and your car truly does need extensive work.

Best of luck.

Sorry for the confusion. The noise in the video isn't what they are going after. I'm not sure if it's a problem to be honest. A forum member told me that the noise is normal, but I talked to a few of my friends who drive manual and they told me if the clutch pedal is fully depressed the gear shouldn't make any contact with the car( driveshaft or flywheel?). Yes, I did intentionally shifted slowly in the video to show the noise, but that was because I could feel the little grind and resistance even when I shift normally.

The other noise that they are inspecting isn't shown in the video and the noise isn't very consistent and only occurs when the car is warm. But the foreman has a video of it, I will see if I can get it from him after they replaced the engine.

No it's not my 1st manual car. The new foreman concluded that it wasn't a fault transmission but engine. Even though they have the engine pulled out for inspection but they still couldn't find out what the problem is:mad0259: They just hope the new engine will fix it.

Maybe if they hook an AT to the new engine .......that would solve all your problems ....... :iono:


humfrz

I'm still quite confused where the actual problems are on OP's car? I've still yet to read anything regarding mechanical failure or even hindrance.

It makes a 'click' on acceleration as described in post #11

could be an axle nut or catastrophic engine failure, guess the dealership decided to replace the engine

:iono:

You can go back to see #1 post. I updated it and put the whole story there.

still confused how your tranny issues had anything to do with the engine. just difficult to see it being an issue with a facelifted 86 and not user error. too bad you don't have a video showing of you shifting "normally" and showing the stick popping out.

Sounds like it had nothing to do with it at all. Engine replacement is for other noises.

Thanks for the clarification and documenting this awful process. Your problems are odd, a few are normal operation like #2, #6, & #7 (#7 patiently explained by Ultramaroon twice) but popping out of gear and abnormal noises (within reason) are certainly not.

Does the car have a short shifter in it? The TRD short shifter is known to be problematic and improper install can screw up shifting noticeably.

You'll have to be patient with the skepticism, I've never seen anyone claim to have an 86 that's popped out of gear and I've beat the hell out of mine without repercussion as have many others. Abnormal noises come and go, it's hard to tell what's going on based on text description alone.

Get that foreman and tech a case of beer when your car is healthy again, they're going the extra mile to get your car fixed even if we're all skeptical of what the hell is going on with your car.

It could be two separate problems, the clicking noise and the transmission issue. I'm pretty positive that the transmission problems (shifter pop out, can't shift into gear when in speed) were caused by the spring that was found loose in the 1st repair. My guess was when they replaced the transmission in the 2nd repair the spring got messed up again, or it just has bad design:iono:

No, it doesn't have a short shifter. The whole powertrain and transmission system is stock.
This foreman in Orange is super nice and helpful. He did take an extra mile to help me on this issue. He spent half an hour test driving with me to hear the noises that I was complaining about:bow:

Much better rundown in your update. If we're talking about the retaining clips for the throwout bearing, The loose spring theory makes sense. Drawing a mental line between cause and effect, I can see where a loose one could allow the fork to knock back and cause some sponginess. Then it becomes a simple case of dragging clutch.

I just hope you get it all worked out. You have some great support in that dealership you're with. I agree with Strat that a case or two of beer is in order after the dust settles.

I talked to the foreman last week and the latest information I got was:
The head casing was inspected and pressure tested and will be re-used in the new engine.
Other than that part, all other parts are new (block and the upper half) and the whole engine is assembled at the dealership.
I was told that they should have the car ready and thoroughly inspected by tomorrow, will let you guys know if that actually fix the problem.

Good luck and please let us know how things go. Out of curiosity, what is your age?

They broke the injector seals when assembling the engine. If the injectors are not in back order I should have the car back tonight...should...


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