~el~jefe~: i drive "on dry roads" (cleaned up from snow/ice with salt mostly) in city 95% of time. BUT! I prefer to ready car for worst cases. It's those 5% that can prevent you from going or add a lot of time to get to those 95%, those 5% where you may lack traction on countryside road/iced uphill/unplown yard or road/right after heavy snowfall & not yet cleaned/to avoid crash/etc. I want to be able to rely on car to get me where and when i need and for that i need good proper winter tires, not just something that somewhat may do.

It's not like push the car anywhere near its limit in the winter on dry pavement... No comment on roads with fresh show though. :burnrubber:

BTW, folks, Discount Tire does carry Nokians and has some very good deals on several models (like the Hakkapelliitta 7). Hakkapelliitta R2s are only like $3/tire more than WS-80s. I may try some Hakka R2s this winter...

It is worth going to Arctics. I am hugely impressed with General tires. I run the Artics on my BRZ and they rock both in snow of all types, even had a few surprise blizzards in white out conditions before roads were treated, and in slightly warmer conditions. Just pump up the pressure to 40 psi and they work great as all season tires. With the slight caveat that I do love sliding around, and in the dry upwards of 50 + degrees they are not anywhere near summer tires. I ran them last year in NC where the winter weather is much better and they were awesome. I also run General's all season on my Yaris, and they are awesome in the dry and wet.

I've had two sets of Generals, a set of Arctic for my brz and a set of all season for my Yaris, and they are both awesome for what I use them for. I'd trust the new Arctic 12 to be just as good.
That is the old rule of thumb but you really don't need to do that anymore. Tire tech is so much better now than it use to be, and the reasons they use to do that was thinner tires cut through snow to bite the ground better, but with new winter tires that can handle snow, ice, and ground just as well it really is not necessary.

Over the stock brakes? Beg him to add those to the wheel directory, I'd be all over 15's if I knew they'd fit. The smaller the wheels the cheaper the tires.

this exactly. I'd be so tempted to find wheel places that would just try wheels to see if they fit. I'd love a cheap light set of 15's.

General. Why on earth would you run 20's in the winter?

Any update on those Neon wheels, they require a 20mm spacer to work. But they do fit.

I noticed the Sparco Terra is now available in 15". Curious to see if that clears, since I believe the 15" Methods (low offset) do too.

Narrow tires for winter is mostly for digging through deeper snow...if that's not the type winter driving you do then I wouldn't sweat getting a 215 or 225.

For those that want 15 inch wheels, the rally wheels designed for Subarus should fit over the red 4 pot brakes. Enkei, Method, Team Dynamics, Braid, Compomotive, Speedline, etc. Check first, but most will work. Also you'll look like a total badass. I have very little need to do this but I still might if I switch to the 4 pots.

As mentioned the bugeye 16x6.5 wheels work really well. The older 16x7 2.5RS (aka JDM STI GC8) wheels will fit. Those might be hard to find at this point though. There are plenty of aftermarket 16 inch wheels that clear too.

OEM 17s make a lot of sense, but goodness they are ugly. Previous gen WRX wheels work fine and can be found cheap.



I need to get some winter tires and I'm looking for recommendations. We get a couple days of snow around here each year, but on those days I just don't go to work. So no need to jump snow drifts, but it's often cold and wet (sometimes icy) enough that an all season would be a bad idea and a waste considering that I have summers. Any ideas?


- Andrew

Winter wheels!

https://instagram.fzty1-1.fna.fbcdn....55284242_n.jpg

Tbh, with how cheap they are, just get the arctics. They last so long, and are so good when it gets heavy you can really have a riot. Run the pressure a bit high and you can combat the soft sidewalls they are known for.

Most of the other tires I like are 30%ish more expensive, and don't seem to last as long. They may be a better 'non-snowing winter tire', but I think the arctic makes up for it when it is bad, at least in my neck of the woods.

It would be much easier, if someone had made brake fitment template for stock brakes of twins. I asked that few times in brake template thread, but with no results. If there had been such template, it might have been referred even to online wheel sellers to check if they clear brakes. Or to check fitment much faster with several wheels/sizes without actually mounting them.

Gah I always wanted a set of those. Nice pic!

The price on the Artics is definitely appealing. Most of the "performance" winter tires are at least 20 bucks a tire more expensive.

- Andrew

Refurbished 16x7 Subaru 2.5RS wheels are like 135 bucks each. That's tempting.

- Andrew

I actually do see snow, and find 205 working good, but would have prefer 195. Our cars are relatively light, they need narrower tires to cut through then normal cars that are from 1.5t and up. Pity that there are very few 16" with less enough width to not stretch much and it also limits a lot available winter tire choice of 16" AND +195, seemingly 195 width is way more common for 15" tire/wheel sizes for tire manufacturers.
I'd much prefer to find ones fitting over stockers. There are many people that won't do brake kit switch ever for various reasons, be it budget, be it racing class rules, be it local MOT legality reasons. Hence known confirmed fitment for _stockers_ would imho benefit widest twins owners group/niche vs users of various non-stock brake kit user niches.
Imho there is reason, why in most winter tire tests Michelin Xi3/Blizzak WS80/Nokian hakkapeliitta R2 in most cases are among top 5. If no way to test many tires, imho any of these would be safe enough choice. If studded are legal in your state, i'd go for Nokian Hakkas 8 of course :) (btw, case for my first quote answer point, there are 16" 195 R2, but studded 8tghs only from 205)

That's a steal, and perfect for the intended purpose.

This set came off a 20k mile barn find 2.5RS that was getting the full JDM STi treatment, and the owner was ecstatic to get $500 to help fund his project. Ended up getting them shipped via Grayhound, it worked out pretty well.

the ability to grip and stop in dry with other cars on the road at high speed is vastly more important. The slightly smaller size tire need is a myth. The design of the tire is everything. You will notice that the 215/45/17 version of the tire has different proportions of the pattern of a 205. Getting a different brand or model will have 100x more impact than width, negating different sizes. However, on dry roads which is 90% of the driving in winter, stability and braking and corning is determined by maintaining the same sidewall size and treadwidth size. I really have to let this be known. We have light engined race cars, not 1991 toyota corollas.

~el~jefe~: myth? I found similar weighting MR2 gripping better then mine. Very same tires, but MR2 had 195, i had 205. "Aquaplaning" may happen not just on water, but also on snow slush. And just as with water aquaplaning, the narrower tire is, the higher pressure per area in contact patch and less water/snow to push through at same car weight and at same car speed. BTW, generic "myth" of going down at least one size seems to be shared about any winter tire sites/articles/etc. They ALL had been wrong for many years?

If I were driving in deep unplowed snow often I'd find some FHI 4 pots and a 15 inch wheel and some 195s, but that's just not what I need.

I think it will be very difficult to find a 15 that fits over the stock brakes.

Studded is not needed (or legal) where I live. When we get big snow or ice storms, I just walk to the bar with my laptop and spend the day there. :)

- Andrew

Well, those three mentioned are all non studded ones.

Ah, misread your post.

- Andrew

now you are switching from ice and snow and dry weather to warm rain days. What I say stands, it is a myth. How often does it rain in the winter and you are driving on it fast?

rain = no need for snow tires, in fact, they are not good in the rain as warmer weather tires for the rain/dry

Obviously the more a tire pumps out the more it will potentially hydroplane. However, it is the design of the tire that makes it good in rain, not it being 1 inch wide. You are giving advice now based upon bad weather conditions of warm climates in a snow tire thread. That is grasping for straws.

90% of driving = dry plowed roads.
100% of fast driving = 215/45/17 most safe

Smaller wheels? that's a really really really bad idea on a SPORTS car. The sidewall flex is ENORMOUS! So dont anyone mention that please. I get sick of these posts where people change the engineering of their car and claim safety just to win a forum post. They lead all the other forums people to get 195/60/15's or other dangerous setups. You can use 145 tires on a BRZ if you want, you will be going 2mph on a turn in dry weather. Why not 10 inch wheels and 125 width tires!? Would not that cut the snow? First off, you dont want to cut the snow. Ever see snow shoes? NOt a valid idea that you have dig into the snow.

Dangerous? Unsafe? There are lot of cars of similar power / weight with smaller wheel/tire stock sizes. Though most of them are older ones (it seems that it simply is trendy, the newer car is, the bigger wheels and of lesser sidewall profile stock sizing is given by manufacturer. But is it for practical reasons, or because that's what buyers would prefer to buy? (for eg. looks reasons?)). I wouldn't claim that those are unsafe to drive cars. Yes, there will be more sidewall flex/less sharp turn-in, but also more comfort/cheaper and lighter tires, and some claimed that easier to feel/work with mass transfer on track. BTW, twins gazoo racing series on dry summer tarmac tracks with 16x7 wheels - did they choose that size to have less performance / unsafer setup then well proven "most safe when fast driving" R17 wheels? :)

Also, on Ice, a narrow tire is not ideal. The smaller the tire, the higher the load per block not dispersed creates plastic physical properties of the rubber. The more it is pushed down, the more it becomes plastic for a moment and not rubber and it will skid across surfaces. Evenly dispersing the weight of a load without stretching the tire rubber will greatly increase control on ice. Counter that please?

I really think you have no idea about the properties of rubber and how grip is created. 7" wheels create massive flex from a tire that is very expensive and designed to dig into hot dirt or asphalt creating a very special and short lived tire for ultimate friction. You would die if you used those on a BRZ or any production car. There are many ways to create grip on a tire and it is solely dependent on the temperature of the condition, the amount of money one can waste on 1 day of driving, and the car used. Testing has shown that 16" wheels on frs/brz is not stable, and anything more than 17" yields very little in testing. 18" on a track showed maximum cornering and braking increases, a slight bump over 17". But if you read forums, people think that 18" plus 235 tires on regular roads is going to nab them much, and of course it does not. The forum is filled with lots of ill knowledge. There is knowledge out there, but it is in very small quantities.

Another question is this:
1. New Snow?
2. Plowed snow with cars already driving?
3. How deep the snow in either case?

A narrow tire will NEVER see the bottom of the asphalt/concrete in a 2800lbs car after a major snow storm. Therefore, you work on gripping the top of the snow. Next situation is slush, that is a different situation entirely. NExt one is ice, completely different situation for a tire as well, and it does not favor changing treadwidth sizes. Arguably, ice is the most dangerous, and new snow is the most annoying, and commuting is done on partially cleared roads that are mixed. Treadwidth will only help if you drive so extremely slow that you are pushing all the water ice and fluffed snow out of the way and contacting asphalt. Then it matters if you can pump out all the liquids faster.

And this is 5% of one's driving experience, the rest is on cleared roads after it snowed a few days ago and you are driving at 65mph on dangerously narrow tires with huge sidewalls flexing. yay.

BTW, adding to previous post, in some markets lower grade twins were sold with stock 16x6.5 wheels with 205mm wide summer tires. As for countering on ice .. ever saw ice racing rally cars tires? Most often of 15x5 size IIRC. And that's on turbo-ed cars with power/torque twice our have.
http://speedhunters-wp-production.s3...t-n-ice1_3.jpg

rally cars use 15" wheels on small sports cars not for the snow or ice ability but for weight of the wheel being so nothing and getting more torque from a smaller wheel.

are you considering a racing setup suggestions for people driving in a forum never racing?

Basically it comes down to this:
Do you use your car to drive in the snow as its primary purpose? When it is dry, do you just not really drive it? Who the hell would do that with a rwd sports car? Dry and cold and black ice and freezing rain is the places one would find themselves in driving a car like this with any forethought. For that the tire should conform to the millions of dollars of engineering that was used to design the suspension.

Rally wheels often weight more then stock wheels of even bigger sizes due need to be strong enough for jumps/bad roads/ability to finish race even with flat tires. Rally cars usually also have more power to not be hampered much by wheel weight. So for weight of wheel being reason?

I'm just answering your claim that narrow tires on ice and snow will work worse. Ones that need grip way more then people driving on public roads and at legal speeds and have team budget to choose anything seem to think different. First you highlight - "for SPORTS car", then mention for "fast driving", and now - that i'm suggesting for people not racing? :/

you really have not read or want to read anything I said. I am writing this not to counter you but to permanently have on file thoughts that prove the lemming-like quality of forum people getting smaller wheels, more bouncy tires and etc for winter that does not suit 95% of the drivers on a forum if not 99.8%.

on this forum lemming-like imho would be ones that want to fit widest wheels/tires they can for looks reasons, as them look like outnumbering ones asking for most grip/best handling/race use. Smaller wheels are actually thought of by minority here, even if they would fit well for practicality reasons for ones never ever racing, but they would still value more comfort and .. for example of very same model of tire set of 17" winter tires on mine costed 150eur more then 16" ones.

Having driven and raced on both a 215/45/17 and 205/55/16 version of the same winter tire, I can say that the differences were about what you'd expect.

The 215s had better grip on bare ice (wider contact patch), but the 205s definitely did better when driving through deep snow. In Chicago there were plenty of times I was driving through deep snow in the winter, I did it for fun. We had a blizzard 3 years ago on the day of the Super Bowl, I went driving for fun with a bunch of friends while everyone else waster their time watching football.

Neither tire felt necessarily great in dry/warmer weather, but handled just fine. Ride quality with the 205s felt better (and the 16s looked cooler). I really don't think you can argue much of a hard point either way. Get what suits you and your budget.

I'll be switching back to a 215/45/17 this year, but that's mainly because I want the wider contact patch for ice racing events. I'd run 15s if it wasn't such a PITA to find a set that works. haha

As long as you have winter tires, you're ahead of the game compared to a lot of the dumbasses that own these cars and try claiming they make it through winter just fine on their summer tires. :slap:

what are these red 4 pot brakes you mention? I've thought of going down brake sizes to fit smaller wheels, mostly for lighter weight wheels and cheaper tires.

From googling they seem to be from older JDM STIs. I wonder how they will do to not shift brake bias though vs wrx fronts we have.

This thread took off fast!

For people looking less at lots of snow all winter and more at ice,slush, or even dry, but cold (which is mostly what I deal with living in the city) I highly recommend the Nokian WRG3. It still does amazingly well in most snow conditions, and is so much better everywhere else. Better in the summer than some all season tires, in fact... And far better in the winter.

I have a set of those available.

Just for future reference. Subaru Forester steelies are 16 inch, same offset / bolt pattern and dirt cheap to obtain. Great winter wheels when paired with some seasonal tires.

They are GC chassis STi brakes, and also found on the 06-07 WRX. :thumbsup:

You can get them at Orielly's painted silver as refurbs for ~$100 before core. So if you have a pair of old toasted calipers, and are friendly with a guy at Orielly's you can get them SUPER cheap!

Hang on, all of this time I've been stressing about winter tires. I've got a set of Conti WinterContact on steelies I got for my Forester last winter.... except the steelies are 16x6.5 +50....

Run them. They'll be perfect. Test fit one front and rear to be sure you don't need spacers. :thumbsup:

They will work great.

I thought I would add my thoughts here. I just purchased these all season tires for my FRS.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/215-45ZR17...Tires/55376550

I've kept my summer tires - they're in nice plastic bags in my insulated garage. I'll have them put on next spring. The wife and I are planning a nice road trip out to Yellowstone and Grand Tetons. I went with the all seasons, because I'm retired, and we have an all wheel drive Suzuki SX4 that we can use when it's really bad. With the all seasons, I can use them throughout the year when the summer tires die. I used to work at a Lexus dealer, and they would swap out winter/summer tires for their customers. No problem with broken beads. You'll notice that these tires are REALLY cheap. Total price for shipping to Walmart and mounting/balancing was $236 and some change. For that price, I thought - what the hell. Now, you're probably wondering what I think about the tires. I'm no race car driver, but I really can't tell the difference. The noise level is about the same, the handling is about the same. Even the gas mileage is about the same. I'm thinking that, from a practical matter, this might be the way to go for someone who plans on running their car through the winter. I've had another sportscar that I had new Blizzaks mounted on separate rims - that worked ok too. I just thought I would try something else with this sportscar. If anyone is interested, I will keep you updated. By the way, these tires got pretty good reviews - 50000 mile warranty, and all the rest - we'll see.

Not gonna sugar coat it. All seasons suck all the time, but especially in a real winter with snow and ice and stuff.

What do you think of buying these same tires on stock wheels? They're changing this winter's prediction to "lotsa snow" again, and plowing around here is mediocre at best.

My impression is just keep excess ice out of the wheels and I'll be fine on these tires?