technique, skills and drills
 

I come from the world of 2-wheel racing where all anyone ever talks about is technique, skills and drills and the mistakes we make / why we make them / how they effect us / how to fix it... but i'm trying to find similar threads here... maybe they're just lost in the forest of posts? am I missing a skills & drills thread directory? wrong forum?

I think the driving technique discussion is mostly limited to the video threads (AutoX or track). A few other threads cover setup related discussions vs driver mod. And there are some good bits buried in the C/D Street and STX threads.

After decades of experienced people putting stuff online, most people don't hash out the fundamentals on this forum and rather it's kind of up to you to find resources and dig up the 'proper' way on your own. Lots of different sites with their own version and lessons and tips, youtube videos going back decades (I like the old 80's autocross lessons, cheesy as all hell and a bit outdated, but the laws of physics haven't changed).

If you post a video and ask for advice you'll probably get some good tips (especially if you have data logs like throttle and brake and speed), and ask questions in the track/autocross portions of the forum, you'll get some solid opinions and food for thought, but in my experience getting an instructor shotgun is the quickest path to success. I've loved running with Hooked on Driving, they're probably the most expensive group on the West coast but high quality instructors, based on your other thread you've already got track time under your belt, the novice group at HoD would probably be a total bore (but odds are your instructor will push you to go faster and you'll have fun provided there isn't too much traffic) and you might want to search out private coaching at a cheaper track event or something.

Autocross is a cheap way to go out and hammer on your car and try new things with low risk and plenty of friendly people willing to hop in and coach you if they have time as well as the opportunity for you to ride along and learn how far from the limit you really are. Even better is getting someone fast in your own car and realizing how much you leave on the table.

been watching a lot of videos. got any suggestions for other sites?

Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley, it's a book and covers just about everything about high-performance and race driving.

Just about everything you learned for motorcycles applies to cars. Weight transfer, vision, choosing proper lines, and grip management are all pretty much universal.

If you have specific things you want to learn about, or discuss, start a thread about them. Otherwise, you are asking about a broad topic that takes decades to fully understand and appreciate. There are things that won't make any sense when you first hear them, but eventually you'll grasp their meaning.

It took me years to get to the point of understanding just how much I had yet to learn.

thanks! i'll read that book. any other book suggestions?

driving a bike fast and driving a car fast are very similar when things are going right. understanding when i'm doing things wrong is harder though. mostly related to understanding the feedback the vehicle is giving i think. and largely related to my feet i think. i'm having a lot of problems feeling the tires (stock premacy) under braking. i often over brake and lock a tire up and have to readjust... (do you even care if it's a rear tire locking up in a car if you're not going to trail brake?) but it's odd because, i donno maybe the stock brakes aren't consistent or whatever (ordered new pads, made brake ducts since last track day) but i think likely it's my foot / feeling of my foot is not consistent enough. it's a little different because you do almost everything with your hands on a bike... any suggestions/resources regarding consistent inputs on the pedals? i like to think i have great throttle control on a bike but in the car i do stupid things like chopping the throttle under slides and sometimes just romping on the throttle uncontrollably (i've got a fun spin video that makes me look like i have no idea what i'm doing!) do different shoes make much of a difference? do i have an excuse to blow money on gear? :happyanim:
i guess i need to do throttle and brake control drills... maybe i should try practicing drifting? obviously more track time always helps, but... ugh, addicted to gofast. MUST GO FAST. you understand.

Start going to as many autocrosses as you can, seat time is the best investment. The stock brakes are not up to track duty (they are ok, but not great for autocross).

Shoes don't matter much, obviously if you are in some thick work boots or high heels you'll have issues, but any old tennis shoe is fine (it's your feet that are the problem, they haven't developed a fine enough touch and feel yet).

The car has ABS, you are not locking up a tire. Braking does two things: one, it slows the car; and two, it transfers weight to the front of the car which increases front end grip while decreasing rear end grip (lifting or easing up on the throttle does the same but to a lesser degree).

First, get some high temp brake fluid and some track pads, that's a safety concern. Next, get some negative camber in the front (oem camber bolts are good for about 1 degree and they cost like $10), this will help with cornering but mostly it'll help your outer edge tire wear.

Then focus on seat time. Autocross will teach you car control, it's the only place where you can safely reach, find, and exceed the limits of your talent and the car's capabilities. Find local instructors, hot shoes, and twin drivers to give you advice (be humble and have a good attitude and you'll get lots of help). Spend some time and money on instruction, it is worth it.

Once you have the basics down and are ready to go fast, start buying tires. If you want to start spending after you have the basics down, invest in some good coilovers, an oil cooler for track, and some sort of data acquisition. Bolt on power mods are fine, but the returns are small.

The parts that get you the most time are:

1. Tightening the nut behind the wheel (5-15s on a 1.5mi course)
2. Tires (3-5s on a 1.5mi course)
3. Suspension (2-3s on a 1.5mi course)
4. Bolt-on Power (1-2s on a 1.5mi course)

Additionally to 14STU's post, not sure where on the west coast, but in the east Lime Rock Park has a skid control pad. Awesome place to learn the limits of your car in a controlled and safe environment.
I am sure the west coast people know a track that has one somewhere close to you.

If you are in the east, you can sign up for SCDA car control clinics, and you get 1 on 1 instruction on both a skid control pad and autox course at Lime Rock.

I cant believe nobody has recommended Skip barber going faster here yet. Its a really cool instruction video that shows you most of the things that are covered on the good books. I read Ultimate Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley first, then watched the video, it all clicked, because sometimes its hard to imagine something from just reading it (maybe im just visual). Anyways, have at it:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQRmYMlmdqM"]skip barber going faster - YouTube[/ame]

people keep saying this... i feel like this is part of what i'm not understanding... when it does kick in, i can definitely feel abs. it kicks in about a second after a lockup... you can feel the pulsing in the brake pedal right? you can feel it grab traction again.. pretty obvious when abs kicks in i think normally isn't it?

when i'm going for a hard braking zone and do a nice smooth transition onto full brake and then hear a rear tire sliding, and feel no pull from that side / rear gets super loose... and i don't feel abs kicking in... what is going on in this situation? i'm obviously not locking a tire... its just sliding... maybe it's not a braking problem but an engine braking problem? i feel like i'm ok at heel-toe and try to blip on down shifts... maybe i need to take some video of my feet

I like listening to Jackie Stewart talk about driving:


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WhgOXVnHYXA"]How to take a corner at speed by Sir Jackie Stewart - FHM (UK) - YouTube[/ame]



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2o54o2


There's also "Behind the Wheel with Jackie Stewart" on Youtube at an hour long I won't link it here.

http://safeisfast.com/

Academic, more about car design & setup then driving technique
http://www.autozine.org/technical_sc...ech_index.html
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets.html

I lean more technical and less on driving technique, I love Mark Donohue's book, The Unfair Advantage, all about setting up racecars in the '60's and '70's and how he drove compared to the competition, still really relevant today.

Sounds like you're aggressively trailbraking unintentionally, you're not going to win an HPDE by overdoing it on the brakes.

I really doubt you are locking up the rears (or fronts) for a whole 2 seconds before ABS kicks in because it activates much faster than that (the moment there is wheel lock, its almost instant). I suggest you have someone video you from outside, because what you think is happening is probably not what really is going on. You mentioned you were still on stock tires and pads, it may be as simple as brake fade that appears on one side of the car faster than the other (pads that stick a bit can do that for example), and then if one side of the car brakes more than the other, the rear feels loose during braking, regardless if its the front or rear tires that are braking less.

Edit: I assume you are driving with traction control and stability control off (the 5 sec press of the button, or the pedal dance) but I dont see it mentioned here. If you arent, go do that first, as that will be most likely the problem.

:O


edit: yeah, everything off... that doesn't turn abs off ever right?

No, abs is only off if you pull the fuse, otherwise its on, even with pedal dance.

... should I pull the fuse at the track?

Probably not, figure out what's happening first and learn to drive the car as it is first.

It's highly unlikely the ABS is slowing you down or causing any weirdness based on what you describe, if anything it might be saving your ass.

No

Lots more where that came from: https://speedsecrets.com/

The motorcycle world makes it VERY clear, from the top down, that skill trumps all. A prototype is not faster than a production literbike, with equal riders and prep, but a good rider will completely school a novice, regardless of bike.

Unfortunately, that doesn't carry over to cars; a production car has very little in common with a Prototype (think F1, LMP, etc., vs a Corvette or Ferrari). Even worse, a driver's skill cannot make up for as much in a car as with a motorcycle.

Next, the consequences of a mistake on a bike are much greater than on a car. One mistake can leave you dead on a bike, whereas with a car, you're likely to walk away with little to no lasting consequence.

Thus, it leaves everyone with the mentality of "make the car faster" or "buy a faster car".


Case in point: A pro on a 200/250/300 will lap Laguna tens of seconds faster than I can on a 600/1000. A pro in a Miata/FRS/Civic will lap tens of seconds slower than I can in a Corvette/Porsche/Ferrari.

Folks who ride are much more willing to admit that their skill is the primary limiting factor, than folks who drive a car. The most common excuse you'll see in the car world is "my car is not fast enough" or "my car needs more prep/parts/work/power".


If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask, and I'll answer to the best of my ability.

You're trail braking. You're not locking up; you're breaking traction laterally.

Pedal dance is your friend.

Thanks for all your feedback.

i used to race 250s at local club races. they're a ton of fun. for track days we would ride B group because they're kinda slow, so you wind up passing everyone through the corners and then they go flying by in the straights. not unlike the 86 actually. kinda funny, really.

I have been completely amazed at how little consequence there is to making mistakes in a car. even when you really screw the pooch. I've crashed bikes almost 15 times... it really hurts... but you screw up in a car, spin the car, something that on a bike would probably high-side you... and it's like, oh whatever. if you don't hit anything you're fine. no big deal. it's amazing. but anyway, yeah... driver skill is #1.

is there a difference between 5seconds on the trac button vs pedal dance?

very interesting. i was just using the 5-second trac button. i'll use pedal dance from now on.

:eyebulge::eyebulge::eyebulge:

Let me know if you're interested in coaching. It'll dramatically accelerate your learning curve while reducing risk and reducing consumable use.

I would love and absolutely take any chance for coaching or advice. My next track day will be july 9th at buttonwillow, not sure if you'll be around. I'll have more cameras and i'll be recording data so i think things will be more obvious in video then too. I've actually been watching some of your videos. they're really good. great driving.

holy shit. book just got in. what a gold mine! thanks. really great suggestion!

was back out at buttonwillow yesterday on an almost empty track. tried pedal dance first. brake pedal felt exactly how i expected it. it always did what i expected and never did things i didn't. if i went to far and locked up a tire i felt the abs clear as day. and until i took it up to that level, it didn't do weird shit by itself. tried going back to see if i would be able to notice with just the 5-sec traction button and blew pretty much every turn-in because the brakes would basically give up when i started to brake hard. inconsistently. went back in after 2 laps and turned pedal dance back on... back to consistent behavior... amazing. thanks so much for your advice.

now i can only blame my poor skills! :)

You gonna make it to the next 86CUP at Buttonwillow in Sept? :thumbsup:

definitely!

btw, put a video together with really terrible telemetry. a 2:17, so... not good. virtual best was 2:15. the data is 1hz and the video data is interpolated so its often misleading, but... [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_0Ip_QQV0E"]buttonwillow 2:17 with telemetry - YouTube[/ame]

i know i need to be wide open from bus stop all the way through riverside to phil, but just haven't got it through to myself that more gas will be more stable for the rear. those bumps at the end of riverside can be scary if you're too unsettled when you hit them. i also think i need to get on the gas earlier in turn 16. and i think i should brake later and less for the last turn. and turn 2 in that video is all kinds of fucked.


and some mishaps
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo17zm4tF6U"]buttonwillow fuckups compilation - YouTube[/ame]

Looks to me like you are either not correcting at all (first few spins) or overcorrecting (them fishtailings). Probably work on feeling the car and being able to hold slip angle before worrying too much about lap time? Car control will improve times for sure, dont get too hung up on the line and braking and gassing points, as those change depending on conditions and car setup. My $0.02, im not very experienced either but Im just sharing what has worked out for me so far.

here's my perspective of each spin... please let me know how wrong i am :)

- the first spin i really was just completely distracted by the insane porsche that suddenly zoomed up on my ass (they said he did a 1:41)... really completely overcooked the corner... tried correcting but not nearly enough... i chopped the throttle which sealed the deal... really.... really dumb spin.

- after that, overcorrecting for sure. coming out of phil hill, and started to slide right when i turned in, thought i caught it but then it suddenly got worse after i hit the inside curb, and i again, chopped the throttle and it bit hard and snapped me. dumb. need better throttle control.

- after that i fishtailed after phil hill. i screwed up my turn-in and tried to correct the line last minute instead of just hitting the inside curb harder and the whole car got out of balance and then after trying to correct for the oversteer after the car yawed while it was unweighted over the crest, i overcorrected the steering and it bit and snapped, and then after that i'm not entirely sure what happened... i'm sure the throttle was all over the place because i was bouncing around. definitely terrible steering usage after the first snap in the fishtail.

- last session of the day going over the crest after turn 2 i tried to correct for the oversteer, but i let off the gas too much (im thinking right there in that gear i probably should have just kept it wot during that slide) and again snapped it... then it went down hill from there... i kept chopping the throttle after each fishtail just perpetuating the fishtail... at least the fishtail was getting smaller before i ran off.


most of the time i was able to correct for oversteer just fine... but those clips were me really blowing it. there was basically nobody else on track so i felt pretty comfortable going with larger steps on things... which i think helped get things better quicker...


what do you think? any recommendations on developing better feel for controlling the oversteer? just seat time?

@alex.s Have you considered getting coaching?

There's an open test day this Friday, and the GT4 I had booked for the day cancelled yesterday so I have an opening.

I really don't understand why inexperienced drivers are turning the nannies off. 2 Instructors from Skip Barber school have both told me to leave them on, and I do. The only time I turn them off is on AutoX course, and I did a skid pad the other day.

When I have instructor in car I will leave them on for first session of day, to learn the line on the track and then turn them off IF the instructor approves.

With no coach in the car I wouldn't even think about turning them off, I am far to inexperienced.

You need to take CSG Mike up on his offer of coaching, a good instructor in the car actually makes track days way more fun since you don't get in over your head as you have done

Best mod I've made was signing up a coach, and by far the most cost effective. I'm not fast yet but starting to see that I could be. Can't recommend taking this offer enough. :thumbup:

Also maybe not entirely slow now, either...

Thanks for you input. Right now I'm not trying to execute a perfectly clean tidy fast lap. I'm trying to learn how to control the car in extreme situations.

I think you cant learn to control the car when you aren't controlling the car... Ie. Letting the nannies save it for you.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Pretty much what Alex said, you wont learn much (if any) regarding car control with the nannies on. You can learn about the race line but thats about it, and that line is bound to change depending on if you trail brake or not (and you should), and since trail braking is not possible with nannies on, you might as well not be doing much aside from getting used to the speed.

Well unfortunately in the Northeast we don't have run out areas like the ones in video. You do what Alex did at Palmer, or Watkins, Limerock, Thompson the list continues and you will have totaled your car into a tire wall or rock wall if its Palmer.
Maybe the 2017 cars are different, but nannies still allow you to learn the limits of the car and allows trail braking. I have only had it kick in a few times and each time I was happy it was there.

Both hpde instructors I've had encouraged me to turn it off as soon as I felt comfortable, and felt that the sooner the better.

The trend of leaving it on is for people, like others mentioned, who are really new to track days, we're talking about people who are 10s off the pace and still learning the very basics of awareness and manners and point bys and car control.

People start hpde with extremely different levels of skills, OP there has prior track time in motorcycles for instance. But I agree, a coach sitting shotgun will do wonders, I likely would have struggled to break the two minute mark around Laguna Seca without one, instead I was there on day one and consistent 1:55s +/- on my two return trips.