My S2000 vs GT86 Steering feel comments/questions. Anybody else own both?
 

I own both a 2002 AP1 S2k with 22k miles with Bridgestone RE-71r tires and a 2013 Scion FRS (also known as GT86) with 57k miles with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. (Both of these tire sets are aggressive summer tires, with the s2k's tire set being a bit grippier.) Both cars in great condition. I've owned the S2k for 6 months (put on 5k miles) and GT86 for 3 years (put on 50k miles). I've tracked the GT86 4 times, and doing 1st track day in s2k next month. I've done several back to back spirited driving session comparison on the street with both cars recently. Long story short, I love both cars and prefer the Engine/Transmission of the s2k but prefer the steering/chassis feel and lower center of gravity of the GT86.

I want the s2k to be the perfect car, but still can't get over how good the GT86 steering and overall chassis handling is when I switch back and forth between each car. Any others that own both cars feel the same way? Am I crazy or missing something? Don't get me wrong the s2k handling still feels good, but I feel I can drive the at 10/10 on the Gt86 easier, more predictably, and safer than I can on the S2k (at least with my two car samples, both in stock form). Maybe this makes sense and is expected considering the AP1 is known to have a bit twitchy handling at the limit. FRS just seems more stable and controllable all around.. steering feel in turns, more stable under hard braking when threshold braking at the limit, and even in a straight under full acceleration while shifting.. and again the steering feel during all of these inputs feels better in Gt86. Perhaps the 14 yr old age of my s2k has affected the suspension balance and tuning of my sample some (maybe I need to take it to a race shop here for a thorough inspection and freshening up). Also I think my front passenger side suspension may be out of spec... needing perhaps a new control arm or knuckle.. I was only able to get -0.5 degrees of camber max?? (my alignment: FCaster 6.1deg, FCamber -0.4 deg max, FToe 0.0, RCamber -1.7deg (not maxed), RToe +0.24deg total). Also, I did recently get under my car and inspect both the front and rear subframe alignment and bolts.. my subframe alignment is right on, and most of the bolts were all tight to torque spec (only a few needed a slight tightening).

Again anyone else own both cars, and feel similar? Any advice on what you have done to improve steering/chasis feel or too settle down the handling to feel a bit more forgiving when driving at 10/10? I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for as I like both s2k and gt86 agressive oversteer easily driftable handling... but I just want to improve the s2k steering feel more in line with gt86. Perhaps I should have got the AP2 as it is known to be more forgiving with it's bigger tires, lower redline, softer suspension, heavier flywheel... but FRS still felt very controllable on the stock OEM prius tires when new even though those stock tires were very slick (back end would chirp and slide around, but still felt very easy to control at 10/10 driving).

Hoping not to get flamed here too much, and not meant to bash the s2k at all. I love the s2k. Although I must also give credit to the Gt86, as they did very good with the steering and chasis. Just in the effort of constant improvement, I'm trying to see if others shared similar feedback and any tips on what they have done to improve their s2k handling/steering feel and overall performance? Again, perhaps my s2k needs some tuning (starting with fixing my front right -0.5deg max camber)!?

coilovers for your s2k should fix that issue to an extent. When my friend had his with kw club sports or v3's (he's had both), it definitely helped with the tail happy s2k in terms of feel and Lap times. The shorter wheelbase and suspension tuning has much to do with that car's characteristics. I think you need to give the s2k more time in terms of driving to really appreciate its uniqueness. That car will definitely make you a better driver over time.

Give it some track time to see if you feel the same way in a few months time. Also, does your ap1 have 16 or 17 in wheels? The stock 16 inch wheels could be a factor due to the larger sidewall.

I have both 2007 AP2 and 2017 BRZ

The earlier s2000 are known to be hard to control, be careful when pushing it, it will eat you up and spit you out if you don't get it right. I really do mean it. As for the steering feel, for me it's different because I have the new BRZ so it's not like the ones prior it's softer In feel, and not as raw as the earlier 2013 model. I do t have enough data yet because I've only driven the old 86 for a couple weeks for work on and off and I only placed 200 miles on my 2017 which is still in break in, My s2000 still handles and is more of a race car, this is because I have full coil system,brakes, race wheels and tires (Goodrich Rivals) it was set up for STR and some track days. Thought I only had few opportunity to track it because I also have a NB miata at I'm more happy to track since I really baby the S2000.

You're absolutely right, the 86 doesn't matter the model is easier to drive. I really do think you need someone special or someone that's experienced with the s2000 to really bring out it's potential. Remember it's a front midship car so it has a characteristics of both a MR and FR car.

Take your time and learn it well, I'm happy I have both but you really gotta Be on point wih the Ap1 I really in my opinion think it's much harder to control than a AP2 or a Twin. Have fun!

We own 2 AP1 S2ks, and 2 86s. The S2ks are both running square setup, 265/18s all around, with decent coilovers...KW V3s on the wife's stock body, ISC Street valved 10k all around on my Amuse widebody. Switching from stock wheels/tires/suspension to a square setup wheels/tires with stiffer suspension, I thought for sure that it would make the AP1 have too much front authority, and surely induce crazy oversteer. In fact, the opposite occurs. The cars are much more controllable at the limits now, I can go in hot on entry, and it will just lightly understeer all the way to the point that I get on the throttle, then it gently transitions to oversteer. This has a lot to do with the alignment, and yes you could make a square setup oversteer like mad with enough front camber and rear toe-out, but we just run a sensible alignment, couple of degrees of neg. camber up front, a little neg. camber in rear, toe in slightly front and rear. Works for us, something for you to think about.

Comparing steering, I actually prefer the steering on the S2k because there is a known issue with the electric-assist steering rack on the 86 when you go to wider, sticky rubber up front. We are also running 265/18 square setups on the 86s (trend?) and I'm constantly having to deal with overworking the steering pump mid corner, losing steering assist so the wheel gets all stiff for a second, then it comes back...makes it hard to be consistent at the limits, and just kills some of the fun unfortunately. :(

Hope that helps some, let me know if you have any other questions. @CSG_Mike also has some experience in both vehicles at the limits and might be of some help.

See here for my comparison of the two: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=s2000


Honestly OP, I HIGHLY doubt that you can feel the center of gravity difference in handling between the two cars, as it's not too different between the two cars. What should be more noticeable is the S2000's superior weight distribution. With the engine and transmission entirely mounted behind the front axle the S2000 has a 49/51 weight distribution and considerably smaller moment of inertia than the BRZ.

My opinion, is that any perceived notion of handling inferiority for your S2000 is a result of the car (as you mentioned) possibly needing some suspension parts replaced, or your lack of familiarity with the car. Again my opinion, and I don't have much seat time in AP1s.

:thumbsup:

Unrelated, but two thumbs up for Kongo! Best boat.

Isn't the AP1 known to get loose too quickly??? Is it possible that the weight distribution isn't "superior" for anyone but the most skilled drivers thus making the 86 technically the better handler for most?

Serious question, I haven't driven an S2000. I just remember all of the talk years ago about people wrapping them around trees. :lol:

Most people forget it's a Front Mid Ship, the engine sits close to the middle, so it is harder to drive well. It does need skill drivers to drive it well. But man if you drive it well you're a good driver in my eyes. 86 is pretty easy compared to it .The superior part I think really only applies to when you're actually tracking it for milliseconds.

The Miata is a better comparison to the 86 in this sense everyone can drive it well and it's easy.

Also, I always like the make the argument that an AP2 is better but that would be me being bias :P

And remember the S2000 was designed in the 90s the 86 was designed 10 year or more later I sure lots of things would be different lol

I have owned and tracked both. My experience is limited with the S2000, but i can say without a doubt you will become a better driver in the long run with the Honda. When i first went and test drove an S2000 and the BRZ back to back a few years ago (before i got into AX and DE), i thought the BRZ was stable and the S2000 twitchy. So, i bought a BRZ.

Since, i have owned two more BRZs (3 in total), all built to different levels and for different purposes. However, my last one was destroyed by an old man who t-boned me when he was not paying attention. But no one was hurt, so all is good. After AX/tracking various cars over the last two years I decided to re-visit the S2000. Now, I look at the car quite differently. It is sharper and requires smoother inputs, but man this car rotates well. I wont even go into the F22C vs FA20, I will stick mainly to handling and driver perception.

It is much easier to drive the BRZ, over the S2000. It is more stable, and communicates well. Still has one of the best turn-in feelings from a car that i have ever driven. I think i still prefer the turn-in feeling over the 987 and 981 Caymans. Definitely best in its price range. But after turn-in ...is where the BRZ loses its charm. That stability starts to work against you as you progress as a driver. I personally started to get bored. The S2000, a car that worried me on the track a few years ago now fit me perfectly. I am far from an expert but here are my thoughts after moving into an S2000.

The BRZ understeers alot compared to the S2000.

The S2000 is very adjustable mid-corner, super sensitive to driver inputs. This can be bad for novice drivers.

In corner exit the S2000 is superior when accelerating out. It squats and allows more power, even though both cars have a Torsen LSD.

The BRZ gets boring in the corners compared to the S2000. There is almost always something to learn with the S2000.

All my references are for track driving. On the street I actually prefer driving the BRZ. And I still love the BRZ, but the S2000 gives me a little more room for perfection (and error) while on the track.

Most of the handling trickiness associated with the AP1 is a result of the rear suspension geometry. When the rear suspension is unloaded (from lifting off throttle abruptly or slamming on brakes) a toe-out situation is created. That's great for nimbleness but horrible for stability.

As to which car is a better handling platform to learn with, I learned most of my track skills driving an AP2. And I crashed my BRZ first time out. So what does that tell you? :laughabove::bonk::iono::bellyroll::(

(of course its worth noting that the AP2 had far superior tires, and the BRZ was boosted on stock tires)

And this is why this forum is great, people with real experience weighing in!

I come from 9 years of having a 99 S2000, which I used to track often until I started to get a little bored of doing it. I haven't and probably won't track the 86.

The S2000 when pushed hard would flex quite a lot, even with extra bracing, and that's the big win that our cars have because the tub is very stiff. What did help mine a lot was firstly upgrading the rear lower brace; even though there's one as standard a stiffer one made quite a difference in terms of being able to control on the limit, and secondly replacing the rear toe arms to get rid of (mostly) the questionable RWS effect that Wolfpack talked about above. It then was a car you'd feel more confident playing with on the limit.

If you can only get -0.5 camber in the front then I'd say something is definitely wrong (seized adjusters probably). I think mine was -1.3F -1.6 rear. It's going to turn in a lot better with more front camber.

What still annoys me with the 86 is the throttle. The S2000 (early ones anyway) had this fantastic device for connecting your right foot to the engine called a cable. All sports cars should have one. As somebody said "the S2000 is very adjustable mid corner"; making tiny changes to the throttle to adjust the line is one of the things I always loved. The 86 feels a bit clumsy. But it's fun enough and more practical as a day to day car which was the point for me.

I agree about the 86 needing a throttle cable. There are times where I want more for the car, but the electric throttle holds the car back, even if just for a second.

My question is outside the scope of this thread, but since we are making comparrisons...

You signature shows that you have owned/own 2 Porsche (Cayman & Boxster), can you describe your observations of the 2 compared to your BRZ and S2000 experience?

I expect to purchase a 718 Cayman late 2017 early 2018 and I'm curious to hear the opinion of someone who has owned/driven/raced a stable of cars like yours.

Thanks!

I agree, though I actually didn't mind the DBW on my 2007 S2000 (all S2000s 2006+ have electronic drive by wire). My father owns a 2005 model, so I could do an easy comparison. Still, the AP2's DBW in my opinion was better than the BRZs, and I agree it helped with making mid-corner corrects at the track.

Hell, my S2000's DBW calibration is better than that found in my Cayman. In normal mode its absolutely horrible - after 2 1/2 yrs i still occasionally have difficulty engaging the clutch smoothly in 1st or 2nd gears:mad0260: . In Sport mode its considerably better (of course, to use sport mode I have to push a button every time I get into the car:bs: )

Well there is a great read and thread in this very forum. Its currently on page 2 of this " VS " subforum. It was started by @WolfpackS2k . His insight is very good, and a lot of the thread that follows has tidbits of great insight.

That being said, as my journey continues through the world of cars/modding/racing my wants evolve. As does my point of view or reference. Lastly, your question is very vague so I will do my best to interpret what i think you are trying to find out. If you give me more specific concerns then i can share more focused opinions or observations.

First things first, lets not turn this into a 987 vs 981 vs 718. I have driven all 3, and tracked two of them on a very short course (1.2 Mile). They are all Porsches, so the fit and finish is above the BRZ and S2000. The Cayman(s) and the BRZ feel very similar when driving them on the road. The S2000 doesnt feel like either one in my opinion. But there is a weird kinship between the 987 and the BRZ/FRS. Maybe its the size, the cockpit, the guages....I honestly dont know, but the BRZ feels like it was influenced by the P-cars. Except for one glaring difference, the engine placement.

I could ramble on for days about these cars, so I am going to try and be brief and therefore not all encompassing.

The BRZ is a great beginners car for tracking. It is a great beginners car for modding and learning some wrench turning. It is less fun on the road than a Porsche, but much more friendly than the S2000. But it is not a GT car like the Porsche is, what i mean by that is the S2000 and the BRZ are pretty bare bones. The P-car is still more insulated and muted than either the 86 or s2k.

The Porsche is the best blend of daily driver and racecar. In fact no one does it better than Porsche in my opinion. Yet, somehow i still feel the Porsche is too soft, hence why i prefer the S2000 to a Porsche. In addition, I like to be able to do virtually all work on my vehicles. With a P-car it is not really do-able.

S2000, a great affordable car (compared to Porsche) that has fantastic driving dynamics. A great powertrain. A much larger learning window, as you progress as a driver. You can DIY the hell out the car, unlike a Porsche. It takes to mods very well. But, it sucks as a DD for most of the population. Both the Cayman and the BRZ are much more DD road friendly.


So if you want:

A do it all car on a budget, and you like to turn wrenches - BRZ

A do it all car and have the funds, and dont mind not performing your own mod/maintenance - PCar

A track/weekend car only that gives up the practical side of the BRZ, but is sharper on the track then - S2000


I dont need the practicality of the BRZ, but i want to do all my own work. The fact that the S2000 is more affordable to me(than a Porsche) is just a bonus. If i didnt want to perform all my own work, I would be in either a Cayman R (987) or a 981. The 718 is fantastic. The handling has little improvements all over the place, over the 981. Not big ones, but the steering isnt quite as dead feeling. The power difference is unquestionable. The 718 base is as fast as my old 981 S.

But I wont pay for new one. I also like to track my cars, and until i see how the turbo'd 2.5L engine handles heat while on the track I will just sit back and watch. But i imagine in 5 years or so my stable will have a 718.

I hope that sheds some light, but if it was no help at all, please let me know what info you are looking for and I will do my best to share.

dont own a ft86 yet, but ive had AP2 and RSX Type-S.

The RSX hydro was GREAT. RIP HPS.

The s2000 steering feedback was dead as a doornail, even with Poly rack bushing inserts. Truly the worst steering feedback this side of a MKVII Jetta.

Ultimately, it was one of the chief reasons i sold the S2k and why i will likely never purchase another.

Truly the (massive) fly in the ointment for that car...besides the quirky weight transfer issues that is..

the car lacks a flat-enough torque curve to deal with oversteer at speeds that 245mm+ tires tend to generate oversteer. in this sense it really is like a 600cc sportbike with 4 wheels...that costs more to replace after you wrap it around the armco.


other subjective knocks against the S2k - flexy chassis (really cant handle the 10kg+ springs ppl put on their IMO) and the odd noises that come along with it.

syncros get notchy (especially 2nd)

its a phenomenal car on paper, and im glad to see it's enjoying a resurgence in popularity, but ultimately, i believe it too flawed to really reach the heights of something like a 987 in terms of being a cult-level driver's car.

cant speak to AP2 v2 DBW - I had a cable throttle (RIP)

my advice: you will likely enjoy owning a Twin more overall - unless you live on a track with copious run-off, are named Tsuchiya, and/or enjoy playing russian roulette when you lift off the throttle.

I was in the market for a S2000 for a longest time, never driven one, but after seeing this thread, it got me thinking if I am going to be that much happier after trading FRS for s2000

I figure I'd get the S2000 and see what the hype is about - as long as I don't go and do something stupid like wrap it around a tree, it should hold its value well.
The Toyobaru should be around longer (and in greater numbers) than the S2000, so I don't think it would be out of the question to get one down the road...

S2000s on the other hand, seem to be getting rarer and rarer (especially unmolested, accident-free examples).

Well, S2000s never did wow me on the test drive. Only being on the track did i finally see what i like about the car. It is definitely not for everyone, and is not a car that caters to all needs. It is a car strictly for some form of driver enjoyment. Unless it is a car you have always loved, I dont see why anyone would drive one unless they had some intention of tracking the car.

I love mine, and it is fun to street drive it occasionally, but not something i want to have to drive on the road. But i just came back from a DE up at Hallett Raceway and the car performed great.

A few people have remarked about the S2000's chassis being weak/too flexy.

That's utterly ridiculous. It has an extremely rigid chassis for a convertible. 22,000 Nm/degree, better than many coupes of the same era. Is it as rigid as a modern sports coupe? No, is it as rigid as a brand new Miata? No, it was designed 20 years ago. For comparison a Miata of the same era as the S2000 had a torsional rigidity value of around 6,000 Nm/degree.

FWIW that 22,000 NM/degree figure was debunked a few years ago. There was an OEM chassis engineer for the Solstice (Kappa platform) who tested the torsional rigidity of a few of the Solstice's competitors. The then-current Miata (NB) was around 6,000 NM/degree, while the S2000 and Solstice were in the mid-7,000's according to his testing.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/5026...t__p__10910284

His numbers seem to match pretty closely to those found on this site:

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/06/20/...ehensive-list/

Hmm, not to derail this thread but I read that thread and didn't really reach a conclusion. Perhaps I did put too much stock in the 22,000 figure though.

Yeah I don't think it matters in the long run (S2000 is a great car either way), but I just remembered there being some serious doubt about that figure.

that's alot of qualifications there ^^^. early ones were ripping upper frt a-arm mounts off the frame. spoon sells a $600 gusset kit for them. it's a honda. it's flexy. jacking them up from one corner reveals this immediately.

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1115...d-failure-fix/

I've owned 3 S2000's and an NB Miata. The difference in chassis rigidity between the S2000 and the NB is huge. I can't talk in engineering #'s, but I wouldn't be surprised if the S2000's chassis was at least twice as stiff.

I loved my S2000's, but as I got faster, wanted a solid roof over my head, and didn't want to tear up my '08's interior putting in a rollbar. Just sold the C5Z that replaced it, and am considering a '17 BRZ w/ PP.

As far as DBW, there's absolutely nothing wrong w/ the technology, it's being used at the highest levels of motorsports. The negative perceptions around it are almost always attributable to the software programming of the responsiveness to inputs. I thought my AP2's DBW implementation was excellent, and being able to reflash the ECU w/ a FlashPro was an added bonus.

I think this is the best unbiased review so far.

Disclaimer: I own a 2004 S2k but I did test drive the S2k, BRZ and Elise all in the same day when I was shopping. Wanted to get a ND Miata but none available 2 years ago when I was shopping.

The S2k is a harsher master indeed but in the hands of an expert (a REAL expert - I was graced by the presence of Mikhail Goikhberg as an instructor - google him up) and he drove a buddy's modded S2k and SPANKED everyone from Corvettes, Alfa Romeo 4Cs, race gutted turbo'ed Miatas, etc. on a technical track. His hands were flying all over the place and his comments afterwards?

This isn't verbatim but it went like: "This car is extremely well balanced unlike my car (he races a Corvette) and I can just make the car do what I want instead of ask the car to do something, get rejected and ask again."

The guy was a beast and it shows what the S2k platform can do. If you can't get out that much out of yours, the issue is PEBWAS (problem exists betweel wheel and seat).

BRZ is a better rookie platform hands down and of course, better chassis. I've always said that they just need to slap a K20 into a BRZ or even the S2k engine and tranny, and I'd be lining up for one.

I have owned both, and driven, and wrenched on many examples of both.

I now own an S2000 AP1 and no FRS

Stock for stock, the steering feel in the FRS is better.

Here's why. Take a look under the FRS and the S2000.

The design of the 2 electric power steering systems is fundamentally different. They both use column twist to determine input torque and required assist. This means if you let go completely, the required torque will always be zero, and the electric motor should f*ck off and let the wheel turn. That's where it ends.

The S has a motorized rack. It does power assist just fine, but dampens feedback. Every time there is road feedback, it has to move the motor assembly at the rack rate. It's a complex and heavy assembly, and the whole assembly acts as a damper. That's because the drive transfer is helical. For there to be a rotational load on the motor, there must be a proportionate thrust load on the rack.

The FRS has, for all intents and purposes, a manual rack. The Electronic power steering hardware is inside the cabin, attached to the same steering column the driver uses. When there's road feedback, the rack moves, and pushes the motor assembly with the mechanical advantage of the rack ratio. There's no complex helical ball bearing drive to apply a thrust load to the rack, just a ring, pinion, and motor. The drag is negligible.

The two have some differences in dynamic toe change on turn-in that I'm going to have to dig into a little more, because the S is decidedly more aggressive on turn-in. I can feel the outside wheel "toe in" when taking a set. I can also feel the worn out bushings flexing... 130k and 13 years is hard on rubber.

Anybody with insight on the differences in toe change...?

100% agree.

The Elise was 100% manual and had the best feel, the BRZ was surprisingly close and the S2k was dead last by a longshot.

Honda really dropped the ball on that one.

Just bought an ap1 s2000 last week and while I can't explain as in depth as the last few posts, I can 100% say the steering feel is not BRZ level goodness.

You'd acutally want the outside rear wheel to toe OUT to promote rotation.

Honda was messing with this a decade before the S2k came out.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-HZ8_HY3dw"]4 Wheel Steering Action - 89 Honda Prelude 4WS Ride-Along (GoPro) - YouTube[/ame]



Some light googling s2ki is telling me that the S2k has a toe curve that goes toe out when unloaded, toes in, then begins to toe out again when it gets compressed far enough. That's what catches people off guard as they turn, turn harder turn harder, oh shit the car started turning harder on its own and it's too late for me to countersteer and save it. And the toe out when unloaded can make heavy braking a bit hairy.

Seems like fun, hope I get to drive a stock one someday (if there are any left)

:burnrubber:


fwiw the 86 just toes in as it compresses, and something similar to the S2k was designed into the NC Miata that got a lot of question marks from the public when people figured it out.

I have tracked both as well, and just not to feel left out.....yes the steering feedback on the S2000 is virtually non-existent. The rest of the cars feedback is great, making the numb steering feel stand out even more, but hey its pretty old tech now.

The wife and I are thinking about getting a BRZ again (and keeping the S2000) so maybe i can enjoy both.

I have never dealt with the steering rack at all on a car, except for adjustments in alignment, so i may not be thinking this next comment thru. But, I wonder, if anyone has ever tried to run an S2000 as a manual rack only.

The electric rack is actually fairly easy to depower correctly. It fixes the feedback issue, and becomes straight manual steering. It involves removing the ball drive and motor.

Because the weight on the front axle is so low, the increase in low speed steering effort isn't that bad.

You're looking at 1380 lbs front axle S vs nearly 1600 in the 86.

It steers lighter than a manual rack EK Civic.

That all said, there's plenty of feedback from the S2000 steering, it's very precise, it's just not as good as the 86, and not as predictable. The predictability and neutrality of the 86 steering is most of what makes it so good.

I've driven sports cars with worse steering feel, especially modern ones.

There are, but not many, and finding a stock AP1 in good shape is becoming an adventure fit for Don Quixote.

I happen to have a stock AP1, and I cleaned out a whole storage area for the stock parts because I am NOT digging them back up.

It's the first car I've ever worried about modifying.

I was actually talking about feeling the front outside wheel toe in... Fairly aggressively from what it feels like.

I'm not sure the rear bumpsteer curve is very agressive... I can't feel that as well... But it wants to rotate with heavy braking... But I attributed that to the front toe in... It drifts really really well. Anybody who tells you different can't drift... Definitely snappier than the 86, but plenty communcative... Failing to listen is punished with a backwards exit or opposite direction spin... Immediately.

Perhaps the rears are doing more than I give them credit for. I'm thoroughly used to the 86, where the fronts do the majority of the footwork and the rear axle is practically a throttle-actuated rudder. Haha.

Do we actually know the ND is more rigid? I can't find the stats for the ND, but...

NA and NB: 6000 Nm/degree
NC: 8800 Nm/degree

I could be wrong, but I find it hard to believe that the ND would improve by 250% over the NC to even match the 22,000 Nm/degree you quoted, let alone bettering it.

Throttle steer all the things.

I can help you set up the s2k to be telepathic.

O Rly?

I've owned 3 S2000's, an NB, an ND, and recently test drove an ND (in addition to doing an event w/ them @ Texas Motor Speedway a couple of years ago). Based on my finely calibrated butt meter and my recollection of my S2000's, I'd be surprised if the ND is stiffer. The S2000 has high doors, a big/high transmission tunnel and roughly 400+ lbs., part of which no doubt is extra bracing. I love the ND, but it doesn't feel as solidly built to me as the S2000.

Manual-steering 240Z was my street/track car when I got my '01 S2000 back in '07. I had thought the reportedly numb electric steering feel of the S2000 would be an issue, but honestly I have never been driving the car on the street or at the track and felt that the steering was too remote or numb. For me, it's tight and responsive and I can feel transitions between grip/no-grip, no problem. I don't have an 86 yet, but I've driven a few, and IMO the car on the street anyway feels pretty much like the AP1, which is pretty fantastic as far as I'm concerned.

I don't think I'm too insensitive to steering feel, really. I think my old S13 had better steering feel than either the S2k or 86, and my old S14 weirdly enough had much worse feel, very numb and rubbery.

I had an opportunity to drive my friends AP2 back to back with my BRZ. We both have a basic header/catback/tune for power, and we both have ST/KW V1 coilovers and a couple driveline bushings.

Back to back, you realize just how good both cars are. I was not at all thinking 'one is better' I was just thinking 'they are both so good'. I found it very difficult to be critical while cruising two very well matched cars back to back.

(But my oh my...F20C>FA20...)

MY 04 S2k (AP2) had Bilstein PSS9’s and I went with wider wheels in the rear.