Engine Rod #3 Bent 2013 Scion FRS
 

2013 Scion FRS Bent Engine Rod #3

TL;DR: Basically I got a bent Engine Rod #3, before that I couldn't start the car, then it started but idling bad, CEL code P0203 Injector Circuit/Open Cylinder 3. Toyota doesn't want to cover it under warranty saying it's "not a factory defect" and blaming previous owner. My theory is that Fuel Injecotr remained open, filling cylinder with fuel, causing hydrolock but technician says "not possible" without even checking it. Been 7 1/2 weeks, need help.

Hey guys, I bought a used 2013 Scion FRS from a used car dealership (had 39,000 miles) back in January of this year and about 7 and a half weeks ago now I was going to get lunch in my car and when I went to start the car, it wouldn't start. It was a Sunday so I couldn't get it into a dealership into the next day. I waited an hour and tried to start the car again. It started. But this time it was idling really bad, smelled like fuel, and was shaking because of the bad idling. It also threw out a CEL code. Luckily I had an OBD2 scanner with me and I was able to get the code. The code was P0203 Injector Circuit/Open (Cylinder 3). I looked it up online and I found out that the injector connections sometimes have an issue and it's resolved by getting new connectors. So I thought it wasn't that big of a deal and I would be able to take it into the dealership the next day and have it repaired under warranty. That night I decided to try to start the car again to see if I would be able to drive the car to the dealership or if I would have to pay for a tow truck to come pick it up. It started up perfectly fine this time. No idle issues. BUT there was a LOUD engine knocking. I was recording video because I thought it might be idling funny again and wanted to show the dealership exactly what was going on when I took it in. But instead I got a loud engine knocking noise. (Video below)

https://youtu.be/ERK94fw9qeA

I called the tow truck the next morning and got it towed to the nearest Toyota dealership here. I explained the issue to the service advisor starting from when it had idling issues and gave me the CEL code to when I started it again and there was that loud engine knocking. Note: I never drove the car with the CEL on. As soon as it started having issues I just left it there in my parking spot.

As soon as they started the car they gave me a call and said "we're not sure what exactly the issue is, but you're going to need a new engine... Toyota Powertrain in your car was voided last year so you're going to have to pay for it."
I was never told about my toyota Powertrain warranty being out but I didn't give it much attention since when I bought the car I purchased an extended warranty that covers everything in my car for 100,000 miles or 5 years. I gave them my extended warranty information and they called them and had an adjuster go look at the car to see if it would be covered. The adjuster went about 2 days after this and said that the car should be covered under Toyota Powertrain warranty and Toyota should pay for the repairs. This is where the frustration begins. For the following weeks they kept pointing their fingers at each other. Saying the other should be the one covering it. I even called Corporate Toyota and explained the whole situation and at first they said "Your car still has Toyota Powertrain warranty on it, it was never voided" so then I asked them why the dealership was telling me otherwise and so they called the dealership about it and then the dealership calls me saying "in order for us to k ow exactly what caused the issue, we have to tear the engine down. This process costs $1,000 which you will have to pay if neither Toyota or your extended warranty decided to cover your repairs in the end." I had no other choice but to say yes because without the tear down, we wouldn't move anywhere. They did the tear down and found Engine Rod #3 was bent. (Picture below)

https://imgur.com/ZJxzfek

They blamed it on Hydrolock and said that there was "signs of the car being driven while overheating" so they claimed it wasn't a "factory defect" and even told me that it was most likely the previous owner that had the engine worn down since before I even got the car but since it wasn't a "factory defect" then they wouldn't be covering my car under warranty. They then gave my extended warranty a call and again 2 days later an adjuster went to see it and still they thought Toyota should be covering it. They asked Toyota what could have caused this engine rod to bend, and at first they said "e85 fuel could cause this" so my extended warranty asked for a fuel test to be done to my fuel. Of course I jever put e85 fuel in my tank and tests confirmed it. Then Toyota tells my extended warranty that hydrolock causes this to happen. Again, extended warranty asks for them to see if there was any water/coolant there that caused it to hydrolock. And guess what they find? Nothing. No coolant there to cause the hydrolock. In fact, I just talked to the technician who pulled my engine out and did the tear down and he told me "this bent rod is only caused by hydrolock... But you know what's crazy? When I took the coolant hose off of the engine, absolutely no coolant came out. Even when I opened the engine, there was no coolant inside. Im fact, even your coolant reservoir was at the low level. I checked for leaks and there aren't any. I have no clue where the coolant went."

So they are telling me it's "hydrolock" yet have no proof of it.

They even said the head gasket was fine and no coolant went through there.

About a year ago, the engine had to be repaired while under the previous owner and they replaced the short block along with other things (picture from the CarFax below)

(Update**: After calling Illinois where this was done, the manager confirmed that the whole engine was replaced, not just short block)

https://imgur.com/R35rI3k

So after 6 weeks of the dealership saying they wouldn't cover it and Corporate saying "it's not a favtory defect, we can't cover it" I wanted more information about what exactly happened last year so I asked the advisor I was speaking to at Corporate to look up the history of the car because when I first took the car in they were telling me that when the previous owner had run e85 fuel in the car and caused his engine to go bad and warranty had been denied but then now they were telling me that warranty wasn't voided so I wanted to know the real story.

He looked up the history and said "well here I see that he did have e85 fuel at one point but only paid around $250 for a fix. That wasn't covered by warranty. But when he came in for his engine being blown up, it was covered by warranty. That fix was actually $17,000. Wow." Those were his words. As soon as he saw how much they spent on the last fix he told me "ok, since your car has been st the dealership for so long and nothing has been done and I see major repairs have been done to the car before, I will escalate this to a service manager and he will give you a call." I said ok and waited 2 days for his call. He calls me and asks me to tell him the whole story from the beginning so I did. He then tells me "alright. Let me talk to Los Angeled about this and see what they want to do. I'll give you a call in 2 days." I remained hopeful. I get a call back from him and he starts off with "do you know if your car was bought at a car auction?" And I had seen on the carfax that the dealership I bought it from had indeed bought it from an auction (dealer auction) so I said "well I saw on the carfax that it said something about a car auction but I bought it from a dealership" and he says "yeah, because it was bought at an auction, Toyota no longer honors your warranty. You should call your extended warranty so they can cover it."

I called the dealership where I bought it from and told them what I was told and they said that them buying it at an aution has nothing to do with it. They buy every car at auctions and the warranty transfers over every time. So I called Corporate again (so many phone calls to so many places) and ask to speak with the service manager again but he is busy and doesn't call back until the next day. When he answers I ask him "so what was the reason Toyota isn't covering my car again?" Because I wanted to hear him say what he told me last time. But he doesn't, he says "I'm not sure, I don't have the engine here with me so I can't tell you what the issue was that they aren't covering it" so I say "last time you told me that it was because the car was bought at an auction" and he says "no, I asked of you bought it from a toyota dealership and you said yes and then I asked about the car auction and you said 'oh I think I bought it from an auction'" and at this point I became really frustrated with this guy. I told him "No. I never said I bought it from a toyota dealership. I bought the car from a used car dealerahip. You asked me if the car was bought at an auction and I told you that I saw something about a car auction on the carfax, but I had bought it from a used car dealership. But either way, that shouldn't matter. I read the warranty and it ttansfers over no matter where I buy the car from, whether it be a dealership, private seller, or auction." And he goes "oh the only reason I was asking about the car auction was to see what the title was like on the car because if it had a salvage title then we wouldn't honor the warranty" which he never told me last time. He was just trying to get me off their backs.

Anyway, we end that phone call and well I'm stuck. I don't know what to do anymore. It's been 7 1/2 weeks with no car and I work full-time and will be starting classes again in about 2 weeks. I don't know how I'll be getting to and from work and school. I need advice.

Oh and one more thing. They never touched back on the first issue I had with the car before the engine knocking began. The P0203 code (injector circuit/open cylinder 3)... I think this is the key point to this though. Because isn't it odd that the injector in cylinder 3 had issues, and then Engine Rod #3 bends?

Here's my theory after speaking to people from reddit. What if the injector stayed open in cylinder #3 after I turned the car off when it wad idling really bad and smelling fuel. Then, at night when I go to turn the car on again to see if it starts, then the cylinder or whatever (not very knowledgeable of engine, sorry) is full of fuel so when the engine rod tries to compress it, it can't and so the rod bends.

I told this to the technician working on the car and he said it wasn't possible because "fuel burns... It would have burned it all" but I still believe that if there was enough fuel in there, then it would bend before it could burn it.

Thank you for everyone who took the time to read this long thread. Any help would be great.

Update**: I forgot to add one more thing. When I spoke to the service advisor where my car is currently at (he's been really helpful with me) I asked him if I could get a copy of the service records of everything that was done to the car when it was under the previous owner and he said yes. I got them in my email now and I wanted you guys to see this. I'll post pictures but basically. The guy took the car is because of a bad engine. In the notes it says "full tank of e85 found in car. Emptied tank of e85 and replaced with 91 octane fuel." Then they replaced the engine UNDER WARRANTY. Wait, hold on.. So this is telling me that even though they found e85 in the tank (which I was told would void warranty) they just replace it AND give him a new engine under warranty?? Yet when I take my car in and there's no signs of me causing the issue, it "isn't a factory defect" so I won't be covered. This is what gets me frustrated.

https://imgur.com/a/A4Ik1

Here you can see the mileage is the same, meaning it was all in the same visit.

If there is no other damage anywhere in cyl #3, then I believe that it WAS hydrolock that caused the rod to bend.
Fuel OR water could do that.
However if it had been water, there would likely have been some evidence.
If the cylinder filled up completely with fuel, then there would be evidence of fuel in the oil because it would leak past the rings into the case.

You could have the oil analyzed, but it is probably long gone now.

Could the engine have run for a long time with the rod bent like that???
Maybe

Yeah the oil is probably gone as you say and won't be able to examine that.

And well I never heard any knocking sound until that day in my house. Never even had issues before.

Another thing to note though, upon speaking with the service manager in Illinois, he did say the previous owner had aftermarket parts. It's even noted in the history saying "Advised customer that after arket parts must be removed prior to us making any warranty repairs." But he also told me "when he brought the car in with the blown motor, it was obvious to me that he had taken a lot of aftermarket parts off the car (the way he made it sound was as if the guy had turbo/supercharged it). He said the engine had a hole it in when he brought it in. But since there was no actual evidence of him abusing of the engine, Toyota covered it. It took them a while, but they covered it.

I would go with the fuel filling the cylinder theory but that is unlikely as I doubt there is enough fuel in the lines/rails from the high pressure pump to the injector but you never know.

BTW you really need to write a TL;DR lmao I rarely read posts that long but I did today. Sorry about your shit luck man

This is what happens when you have a good working relationship with a dealer.
I don't know who owned the car previously, but all I can say is that when people start treating dealers like a business partner (instead of like the devil or the bad guy), that's when things get done in your favor.

Many people post about fearing warranty when it comes to mods. In reality, it's just a business transaction and the "$1000 diagnostics fee" that the dealer wants to charge you is basically their way of saying "we don't know you so in case corporate doesn't pay us, we don't want to do free labor work"

If you are a longtime customer of the dealer, they'll probably waive this fee.

-alex

Yeah I'm going into the dealership in a fee minutes and going to talk to the service manager about it to see what they say.

And lol yeah just made one, sorry. But thanks for reading it all

Yeah that's true. The guy over at the Illinois dealership was very friendly and helpful. I wish I lived there and could take my car there instead of here.

Skimmed it, tl;dr
Bought at used car dealership, still under powertrain warranty, bought 3rd party warranty, everyone wants to blame new owner and they think they can get away with it.

Fuck that noise, lemon law it.
This is what the lemon law was designed for.

Don't pay them a dime to look at it, let it sit in their shop and find an attorney. Nobody can 'cancel' a warranty, the terms and conditions are right there in the glovebox.

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/

Edit: That's just my perspective, Mav is the play nice route, I have no patience for these things.

Here's what I think (and it requires you to restart/reset your thought process)

You bought a car with 39000 miles. I am assuming clean title.

The car should have been easily fixed under the 5-year/60000 mile powertrain warranty, but for whatever reason it is not.

You should not have agreed to pay for the diagnostics fee, but you did and it's already $1000 too late into this mess.

What basically needs to be done at this point is you need to stop trying to get the dealer to admit or reconfirm what they said last time. You need to stop trying to get the service advisor to provide you some confirmation or acknowledgment of whatever you are trying to prove.

I would recommend you type everything down on a piece of paper, with a clearly defined timeline of what is going on, and either bring it to the service manager, or the GM of the dealership, and lay out options. If need be, print out copies of paperwork and facts relevant to the car's history, and not a transcript of verbal conversations.

If you feel you shouldn't have to pay a dime for this and there is continual pushback, you should escalate this with either lemon law, or attorney.

I really dislike the whole "let me spell out word for word what this person said or what that person said", because you're so focused on individual words that you miss the bigger picture of getting your car fixed under warranty.

-alex

Yeah I just went i to the dealership actually and talked to a service manager and was just told that they're actually waiting on a phone call from Toyota. Seems like they've been talking to them and should be getting a call later today. Since I'm going to work now he told me to come by tomorrow in the morning when everyone that has been working on my case is here so we can all speak directly.

I'll still make that paper you're telling me about though, it makes sense. If still nothing is resolved tomorrow morning, I will bring out the paper and get some options laid out.

Adding, in California you need to dispute this via arbitration if you choose the lemon law route:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/acp/acpprocess.shtml

Same story as someone I know. No joke is on his 3rd transmission I think and his 2nd engine.

An injector has to totally fail to a point to not atomize the gas. If a DS injector failed it is possible. Sounds like since it was a replacement engine it should be replaced again under warranty. Was the replacement engine a new engine or used? May not matter but curious

YIKES! ...........what a mess ........:eyebulge:

So, can they tell if anything else is wrong with the engine, except a bent piston rod..??

If not, it would seem that they would just replace the rod and put the engine back together and put it back into the car...... :popcorn:

That's what I would ask them to do.


humfrz