I remember when finding an NA gen Miata was easy and cheap. Now it's easy and expensive for what you're getting. Supras, ITRs, etc. same thing.

I think only time can tell what happens but I agree with what you're saying. HIDs, nicer seats, better badge. Well some might think Toyota>Subaru but I see what you mean. Like I said it's just IMO both will both resale value similarly. If anything I have a feeling the FRS will do better since the main thing right now is the FRS will probably be the lowest "base" model while more optioned/performance models like STI or TRD will come out, not to mention some minor model changes will occur. Then again all we're doing is speculating. Another point is who knows what reputation Subaru or Toyota will have in 10-20 years from now, maybe one of both will go out of business for all we know

It's like what OrbitalEllipses just said. I wanted a 2nd clean and cheap S2000 but it's getting hard finding one. Yeah for someone in your position I would hope some people will do stupid rice to kill resale value. I have noticed more FRS users are doing extreme or rice things more compared to BRZ users :D

But according to this article the public disagrees. The Scion TC was Named to Top 10 in 2013 Kelley Blue Book Best Resale Value Awards.

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/11/26/501...0-in-2013.html

Overall resale due to its current avaiability/demand if subaru keeps this up. Its the unicorn of the 2. fast forward 20 years, this model will be the hardest to find. Depending on how long production lasts.

YOU'RE ALIVE!!!


I MISSED YOUUUUU!!!:happy0180:

BRZ sales should see an uptick over the next 4 months (after which I'm assuming there will be a 2014 model)


http://www.autoblog.com/2012/12/03/s...o-high-demand/

maybe thats cause there are 3 times the amount of them and the ricers need the cheaper of the twins to make up the difference for the monster wing. i know there was a rocket bunny kit that had the spoiler cost $1000+ alone. ouch

You're probably right about that. It's probably true when it comes to other negative things such as accidents. You always hear about the bad news but good news is usually just boring.

I don't have a real good radar for how Scion is perceived in the resale market. Some tell you it's a junk brand while other situations prove the complete opposite. I remember when the first Scions hit the market they were in such demand that some used models were selling for more than new ones. My roommate owned his Xb for 6 months and sold it for more than he bought it for. I think the hype calmed while supply simultaneously caught up and this phenomenon was short lived so yeah.. Knowing things like that but then hearing others trash the brand I have a hard time knowing what to expect.

Like I said above, I think the fact that Scion is Toyota plays a major part in the whole equation and also I don't think the Scion image was hurt during the big Toyota "unintended acceleration" debacle either. Can anyone verify if I'm wrong on that. I couldn't find any data to support that those recalls hurt the Scion brand.

You said "my lifetime" and I was going to come in and say "Well, ACTUALLY the GC Impreza was offered in FWD into the mid 90s (reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impreza)" and then I did the math in my head and realized that still could have been outside of your lifetime and you'd still be of driving age.

Now I just feel old. :(

If I start seeing this car every 5 minutes on the road then I'm ready to trade this in for an old Acura NSX lol.

Amen to that.

Although the $25,000 starting point for this car isn't very high dollar for a car in today's market it gives hope that we won't see a high volume on the road with cheaper alternative cars (i.e. civic).

This talk about resale and the perceived (higher) value of the BRZ vs FR-S made me think about how easy is was to sell my 4 year old tC.

53K miles and I sold it for just under $14K . It had a clean title, and was bought for $17620 plus fees. I did some minor modifications but I kept it clean. 5% avg loss per year is a pretty good number considering market conditions. A WRX from the same year also manages to hold its value year over year. A clean S2000 can also hit these numbers easily.

So, in this case the FR-S and BRZ should both hold their values high. The big factor is 2nd hand consumer response, which I don't think will be lacking. Reason one: the cars are NA ; Reason two: They have the same legendary Subaru/ Toyota build quality and reliability; and Reason three: the modifiers (both BRZ & FR-S) will condemn themselves to accepting a small loss because of the modifications to the cars and that won't degrade the entire value of the machines in the long run to stock cars. ex. Scion tC's, WRX, WRX STi, S2000.

My friend told me that $24,000 on the FR-S ($30,000 total) is a rip off. I told him to eff off. I think for the design of this car, it's HANDLING, MPG, Toyota + Subaru, limited edition and so on...makes this car worth every penny.

But yes hopefully other people will be like $24,000?! I'll just get a Camaro...As if we don't see that many already =P. But I just love having a one of a kind car where people are like WTF is that?!

I think it is priced too high, stock for stock there are faster options. I think it's worth it, as do most people here. I think it'll sell like the RX8, it'll be the hot thing for a year or two but will fade, there's no denying it's a niche market, the interest will fade once people get their fill. Every other dealer has their flagship sports cars just sitting on the lots (Mustangs, Miatas, GTI's etc.) collecting dust.

The thing I'm most worried about is long term how they keep the car "fresh" which in this day and age means bloat, guess it'll just make the first generation more valuable in the long run.

At the end of the day, is it really about the "faster" it is the more expensive it should be? I think the FRS gave me that realization that not everything has to be 23895328953289532975329875032 horse power. But again, we're all entitled to our own opinion. But the way I see it, for $25,000 (not including taxes), to have a sick looking car (and yes I have gotten so many positive feedbacks, and I'm sure you all have), a VERY LIGHT car, feels comfortable when driving it, and handles well; it is well worth every single penny. If it had a standard design, with 289353289532 models made every year like a Civic, a Camry, an Accord, etc. then I would understand. But I want to take into factor the way how it's designed, its aerodynamics; and everything else.

My 3 year old xB resold above market value and it was in fair shape (smoker and two accidents). A two year old xB sells for almost the same price as a new one.

The brand may play a role but the value of the car is not decided on brand alone. If it is a popular car, the resell value will be high no matter what brand it is.

For us, no, you must have missed my second sentence. The bottom line is you can get more performance for the money, these things are not going to be the new Mustang that's on every corner. On paper it's basically a Miata coupe with an extra grand tacked onto the sticker.

Mark my words, in less than a year they'll be stagnating on dealer lots like every other sports car.

I'm 32. So I was wrong. I had it in my head that AWD was a Subaru "thing" since inception with a few exceptions but didn't think those exceptions were stateside. Learn something new everyday. :thanks:

edit: Original post edited.

I would not want then to be like a mustang on every corner. Personally I think this car LOOKS better than the Miata If looks has anything to do with the price

Its been a while my friend, sorry for not responding to the text, by the time I noticed it, it had been quite a while.

Subaru USA just released their December sales numbers;


36,653 vs 33,701, +9% Dec'12 sales vs Dec'11 sales

336,441 vs 266,989, +26% calendar year 2012 vs calendar year 2011

497 BRZ's sold in Dec'12

4144 BRZ's sold in calendar year 2012


Toyota USA sales; (updated)

194,143 vs 178,131 +13% Dec'12 sales vs Dec'11 sales

2,082,504 vs 1,644,661 +26% calendar year 2012 sales vs calendar year 2011 sales

1495 FR-S's sold in Dec'12

11,417 FR-S's sold in calendar year 2012

I just received the January 2013 BRZ and FR-S US sales data.
There were 463 BRZ and 1443 FR-S cars sold and delivered in January. Very similar numbers to the last several months.

have to keep in mind, the car fits a limited market.it has limited practicality to it. no one can predict the future,but if i was a betting man,i don't believe it will do well over time,simply because it costs too much to buy.now some will argue that it is a bargain at $25,000.00,however in this economy,it's still a chunk of change,and because only certain people will chase this car used,it will have to drop in value a lot for those people to afford one used.
the fact it is a specialized sports car may help it some,but not enough to make a real difference over time in my view. just sayin'

unfortunately, i agree! reason is just so many people are gonna chase this car! it's a sports car,and the economy still sucks.what this means is that MOST people who can buy a new car won't be lookin' at this one,mainly because it is NOT practical enough,and to be honest,$25 large,IS still $25 large.it ain't chump change!..just sayin'

i agree in principal, (look for the japanese to limit production further) except for the first year generation statement! i don't see this happening,because it will take too long for that to transpire.maybe 30 years or so down the road,again,MAYBE,but even if that does materialize,it really won't matter to most people,because the cars will be f**ked,and very expensive to make new again,if at all possible anyway.

@Spaceywilly

Looks like you have a typo in the total # of BRZs sold.

yup! 4607 instead 46067

If they only sold 4,607 brz, why is my vin in the 5,000's?

Because yours has a flux capacitor installed and its back from the future :D

even if they built 7000 brz's ... do you think every dealers have sold all of their BRZ's? they don't sit around and wait for # 7 to be sold before they can sell #8

hahhaha:bellyroll:

yes! this is true.the tough part is that both cars are virtually the same produced in the same plant,so why pay 33k when you can pay 25 k. the differences,in MY view, are not worth the added expense. BOTH are technically subarus,so why get f**ked and pay more,because that is really what is happening. dealers are happy to take your money! just sayin'

Looks like the FR-S is on pace for about 18,000 cars sold in the US for the first full year, with the BRZ adding another 6,000 cars. That definitely hits the high end of their initial predictions.

One thing to keep in mind though is that the RX-8 sold about 24,000 cars in its first full calendar year. Wonder if the Twins will follow a similar sales track.

A: First "full" year. So not calendar year but first 12 month period right?

B: Any data to suggest that production output vs demand had any effect on units sold in estimated 12 month period?

C: RX-8 (2003) did not go on sale with $4/gallon fuel and in the midst of a massive recession. Although 2003 wasn't exactly an economic boom year either.

@Spaceywilly

Typo on your BRZ total. I'm sure they haven't sold 46k. :)

@Spaceywilly

Typo on your BRZ total. I'm sure they haven't sold 46k. :)

A. Yes, first 12 month period (not CY).

B. Nothing in the data to indicate that, but anecdotally speaking, that's probably true for Subaru in particular in the initial months.

C. Yep, although the first full CY for the RX-8 was actually 2004. Your broader point holds true though -- those were the days of sub-$2.00/gal gas and a fairly optimistic market/economy.

Memories. Sweet sweet memories.

Going back a bit further, when I was coming up we got fuel on Fridays because all grades were on sale for $0.75. :wub:

Yeah but the RX8 gets 19 m.p.g. on a good day, I don't think gas prices are any influence when comparing the two (cheaper gas during RX8 production run balances out it's terrible fuel economy, expensive gas today balances our FRZ's good fuel economy). RX8 launched on the tails of the dot com crash, just like Subieyota is launching on the tails of the housing crash. The sales numbers should be very comparable and should be in the FRZ's favor because the auto industry is setting records for sales numbers.

I will be very surprised if the FRS/BRZ sells significantly more than the RX8 did, on paper (performance numbers, daily utility, official reviews) they're very similar, market conditions are similar, target demo is similar, price point is... comparable (RX8 was a bit more upmarket for the time, similar to 370Z now I believe).

Maybe I'm wrong and it will be as ubiquitous as the Mustang, but I'd bet on RX8-like production numbers throughout it's lifetime (and a similar lifespan).

Looking forward to Feb figures.