How bad is E85 in freezing winter?
 

I have heard that it could be difficult to start the car running E85 in low temperature. But how bad could it be? Anyone had tried it before?

Mine usually takes two tries to start in the cold. There is some fine tuning that can be done with OFT to help the cold start crank issue with e85. I haven't tried the fine tuning but updated my map couple months ago around December and it helped a lot. Now it starts on one try, don't know if Shiv made updates for the cold start with that map but it helps. Only issue I can think of is hurting the starter.

There are many documented cases of how e85 behaves in cold weather, this occur mainly when you get below 40-50 degrees Fahrenheit unless your tune has edited cranking tables. It takes the o2 sensors longer to heat up, in turn the car doesn't run or idle the best in cold weather until warmed up, it will crank quite a bit then finally start.

The problem with ethanol (e85) is it's "Reid Vapor pressure" (RVP), it simply does not want to vaporize below 50 degrees. Therefore it can't ignite, causing a cranking condition. It will only turn over once the combustion chamber temps get hot enough that the ethanol can vaporize.

If you have an OFT or can speak to your tuner have them apply this edit:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...1&postcount=40

As well as these cranking tables:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83945

https://i.imgur.com/UliXZwz.png

Those edits should help you at above 40 degrees Fahrenheit.

I ran E83 down to about 40-45 F last winter and it worked first time every time with the updated cranking tables.

Never tried going lower -- didn't want to risk stranding myself. Curious what the actual minimums are. Can probably go a lot lower by diluting with E10.

In my area it could be 0-20F for month. I guess E85 is not recommended in that kind of condition right?

Also, what will happen if this map is used in higher temperature?

In my area it could be 0-20F for month. I guess E85 is not recommended in that kind of condition right?

You'd honestly have to ask someone that daily's an E85 car year round in multiple temperature conditions, I only do it during spring/summer if that and only once or twice a year for shits and giggles :lol:
If running e85 is something you want you'll have to add some 93 octane (1 gallon) to the tank for those months and also use a block heater and store and start the car in a warm place. The OFT E85 tunes are good for E60-E85 I believe which is why you can add a gallon of 93 into the mix to help start-ability @steve99 could elaborate on this, I've only run e85 once or twice.

Personally as a daily driver car for me, I would never risk having start ability issues in the winter months, so I would avoid it all together below 40 degrees.

Also, what will happen if this map is used in higher temperature?
I believe it will work fine or just flash the non edited map it's that easy.

I've been running E85 year round in Illinois for a while and with a modified cold start injector pulse width, I can get the car to start first try in sub-30F weather. Granted, I rarely drive the car in those temperatures, but I haven't had any issues with starting. I have to do the occasional second try on some days, but most days the car starts right up.

Use wayno s crank tables above, they will be good for starting on up to 90 percent ethanol down to about 40F first crank. then you start to run into the physical properties of ethanol not vaporizing.

Below 40F if you have high ethanol content like over 70 percent or so, your going to have to add some petrol to dilute it down to arround 70% or its just not going to start reliably below 40F


the cranking fuelling is adjusted relative to temperature (top axis of table is temperature)

I'd like to echo this; I've run E85 in the winter in New Jersey and the car has started on the first try all the way down to sub-10F weather (and probably colder). Your tune just has to be modified properly and you shouldn't have a problem.

The key here is make sure you keep the e85 fresh. It breaks down much quicker and in the winter time this is an even bigger issue at very cold temps. That said I ran my wrx year round on e85 for 4 years. Had one time it would not start and it had sat out with a strong wind in my parents yard for a day and a half at -30 degs.

I can think of nothing positive to say about [corn bases] ethanol laced motor gasoline in any concentration, especially higher ones like 85%.

You mean aside from more power?

Also burns cooler so lower temps for our already borderline insufficiently cooled engines.

Please provide a citation to support claim that engines burning E85 provide more power? What about fuel consumption? Manufacturing and distribution costs, ex subsidies? I am willing to be convinced?

It's true that E85 has less energy per oz than gasoline. However, its unique properties (knock resistance, cooling effect) mean you can tune the engine to produce more power. In particular, boosted motors do exceptionally well with E85.

I won't bother getting a citation because there are probably hundreds of cars just on this forum producing more power on E85 than 93. You can look for yourself.

Edit: literally 5 seconds of googling:

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/04/...about-ethanol/

I said I am willing to be convinced...

So why not do some googling yourself?

http://koenigsegg.com/ccxr/

Edit: this really has been discussed ad nauseam. E85 means you can run more boost, advance the timing, and produce more power without detonation. It also means roughly 33% increased fuel consumption. Generally, the price difference between E85 and 93 is offset by the increased consumption, so fuel cost is about the same overall.

On my 02 wrx when I had it I was running 20psi on 93 and able to muster 265whp 240tq. I tuned it on e85 and went up to 24psi and the power jumped up to a even 320whp 320tq.

It was my understanding that he was talking about a stock engine.

Thanks man, that's very valuable info!

Saw your car at pizzahut yesterday:)

I saw before there is a post by Shiv showing the E85 dyno result on stock engine. If I remembered correct it will be more than 10HP gain on E85 than 93. I don't remember which post it is but you could try search on forum.

I remember a while back as well that Delicious Tuning was able to get 200 or 201 WHP on a completely stock BRZ with an E85 tune. Granted this was a custom tune and probably quite aggressive but the ability to make power is pretty significant. I also didn't see their stock run to know if it was a relatively high or low dyno but if you figure that these cars seem to make anywhere from 156 to 176 whp stock on pump gas on dynos best case is almost a 33% power increase over stock for just switching fuel.

I remembered it was 190ish on the E85 dyno chart and it is an old post. So I said more than 10HP because I don't really remember it. Anyway, it is free power that don't hurt anything, definitely worth a try.

You've never seen a car run on e85 have you, look at dyno plots of the same car, same day, same dyno and observe the difference in hp/tq rating from both runs and you can come to your own conclusion (I can't spoon feed the information to you though as then you wouldn't learn as research is a very important part in retaining information... also im lazy)

I have delicious on my brz. I have not dyno'd it to see exact gains 93 vs e85 and i do have aftermarket catback and a drop in panel filter but even so I can feel a difference in the way the car accelerates on e85 vs 93. Comes on a bit sooner and pulls just a bit harder for a bit longer then stock.

there's a reason why the most common bang for buck power mod is header+tune and e85 and why countless people are running their NA with headers and e85 and making great figures vs stock.

you said you didn't see any benefits I have provided one, more power, others have provided the burns cooler also. That's 2 reasons you know of now. Whether they offset the negatives (production, etc.) is up to you but that wasn't what you asked.

He was definitely not talking about stock, if you can't read or absolutely disbelieve e85 you can't help in this thread, I even posted tune edits for him. What fumanchu said is correct

I had no idea how passionate some of y'all are about 'corn' gas. <g>

What's a stock car? You mean those big drag racers?! :)

I initially responded to post #1. Nothing that I saw in it indicated that the OP was referring to a modified engine.

Y'all have fun. <G>

I actually don't like e85 as I feel the negatives outweigh the benefits when looked at globally, a lot more if you take other alternative fuels into consideration.


That being said, if I was looking to squeeze every little hp out of my engine then e85 would be in the tank but with my current setup I don't need more power and am not tuned for e85

Gotta tell everyone about the corn juice. :thumbsup:
Why else would I carry my giant ear of corn around all day?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...9d4a834035.jpg

I was just about to ask why E85 would be an issue. I always figured Ethanol vaporized more readily than fuel. Gotta go back to basics I guess :)

Flash Point




Gasoline (petrol)−43 °C (−45 °F)Ethyl Alcohol, Ethanol 17 C (63F)

I never had to attempt to start it more than once in the 50s and 60s F* but it certainly had a lumpy idle for ~10 sec

it certainly feels like race gas but the new 93 tune is close so I'm happy with it (mostly about lack of pumps around here)