Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB

Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Forced Induction (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=78)
-   -   TrackSpec Hood Louvers (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100737)

CounterSpace Garage 01-29-2016 05:40 PM

TrackSpec Hood Louvers
 
One of the major challenges with the FT86, is the ability to extract heat out of the engine bay. While a stock car that is street driven doesn't have any problems staying within normal operating temperatures, cars that are Forced Induction, or are driven hard on the track often have overheating issues.

Another occurrence the more spirited drivers may have noticed, is that the stock hood "flaps" at higher speeds. There is a lot of air trapped under the hood, and to escape, the air wobbles the stock hood, escaping out the side. This produces a few undesirable effects: extra drag, front end lift, and a general feeling of uneasyness about the hood staying in place.


CSG is proud to introduce the TrackSpec Motorsports Hood Louver/Heat Extractor Vents for the FRS/BRZ/GT86.

A major design hurdle was finding a proper model of the FRS/BRZ/GT86 to perform CFD analysis to determine the effectiveness of the hood. Such analysis is often performed, but CSG and TrackSpec discovered that all of the commonly available models had some major flaws: they all assume a flat underbody, and they do not model inside the engine bay at all! With such a flawed model, the analysis would also be heavily flawed, so we set about seeking to make our own model. Unfortunately, with the budget we have, it was impossible to laser scan such a complex shape (the underbody, and more importantly, the engine bay) to get the level of accuracy we sought.

This led us to use the flawed models, with some modifications, to attempt to simulate airflow through the engine bay. This data, being flawed, was taken with a grain of salt, and was used only to try different shapes, angles, and sizes of vents, which would ultimately be verified with real world testing. Due to the complexity of the actual car, real world testing would be the only feasible way to get accurate measurements (we don't have the budget for windtunnel testing... sorry!).

The end result of this testing, is the vent pictured below. The vent is designed to drop into the stock hood, and does several things:

- an overall 43% drop in under-hood pressure at highway speeds
- a 60% drop in under-hood pressure at 120mph!
- A net front downforce (we had to add wing angle during testing to balance the now-grippier front)
- Increased cooling (less pressure under the hood = more air flowing through the radiator; more air being extracted = more air flowing through the radiator)

The above claims were verified with real-world data, and tested at Willow Springs Intentional Raceway, aka "The Fastest in the West" at speeds up to 130mph under race conditions.

MSRP is $329.99, and are now available at http://counterspacegarage.com/produc...-frs-gt86.html


http://counterspacegarage.com/media/...r/brz_main.jpg

http://counterspacegarage.com/media/...brz_rear_1.jpg

http://counterspacegarage.com/media/..._profiler1.jpg

http://counterspacegarage.com/media/...rz_frontr1.jpg

http://counterspacegarage.com/media/..._brz_speed.jpg

http://counterspacegarage.com/media/...r/brz_data.jpg

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...97302688_o.jpg

JoeC 01-29-2016 06:56 PM

Nice real world testing. You have pretty specific measurements of the reduction on pressure but nothing on temperature?

CSG Mike 01-29-2016 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeC (Post 2527896)
Nice real world testing. You have pretty specific measurements of the reduction on pressure but nothing on temperature?

Unfortunately, the CSG car is already properly cooled, so no hard numbers; it doesn't overheat to begin with.

We did do some testing for anecdotal evidence; we disconnected our fans completely, and still didn't overheat during the sessions. With the stock hood, or even one of the Seibon vented hoods, the car normally will overheat within a lap on stock fans.

Decay107 01-29-2016 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2527900)
Unfortunately, the CSG car is already properly cooled, so no hard numbers; it doesn't overheat to begin with.

We did do some testing for anecdotal evidence; we disconnected our fans completely, and still didn't overheat during the sessions. With the stock hood, or even one of the Seibon vented hoods, the car normally will overheat within a lap on stock fans.

I'm confused, fans should barely affect the cooling efficiency of a moving car at all. Hell, I know a bunch of guys (on different platforms) who elect to run track only cars with no fans installed as they tend to be a restriction at speed.

CSG Mike 01-29-2016 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decay107 (Post 2527922)
I'm confused, fans should barely affect the cooling efficiency of a moving car at all. Hell, I know a bunch of guys (on different platforms) who elect to run track only cars with no fans installed as they tend to be a restriction at speed.

Powerful fans can pull more air through the radiator, than can be pushed through naturally at speed. The fans on the CSG car are so powerful that they require their own relay and independent power source (60 amps!)

Race cars, that have a fully evacuated/stripped/tucked engine bay, can run without a fan, but street cars cannot.

A stock FRS, without fans, would not survive at the track, because air can't go through the radiator very well, when there is a build up of pressure inside the engine bay. That pressure buildup is primarily what these vents are designed for, and the hosing you see on the car is connected to manometer (manometers measure pressure).

JoeC 01-29-2016 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2527930)
Powerful fans can pull more air through the radiator, than can be pushed through naturally at speed. The fans on the CSG car are so powerful that they require their own relay and independent power source (60 amps!)

Race cars, that have a fully evacuated/stripped/tucked engine bay, can run without a fan, but street cars cannot.

A stock FRS, without fans, would not survive at the track, because air can't go through the radiator very well, when there is a build up of pressure inside the engine bay. That pressure buildup is primarily what these vents are designed for, and the hosing you see on the car is connected to manometer (manometers measure pressure).


Wow! yeah, I guess the CSG car wouldn't have cooling issues.

Northwest86 01-29-2016 10:38 PM

Are we able to see an under the bonnet pic. Really interested in the structural strength and how it is maintained as it appears that it is cut out. Our state is just really finicky about structural changes.

kikew 01-31-2016 02:38 PM

Nice design. But I wonder where the water goes when its raining. Can we see a picture from underneath?

CSG Mike 01-31-2016 05:52 PM

We'll have some pictures for you shortly. Everyone is at the track so there is nobody around to take a picture of the underside of the hood :)

DeliciousTuning 02-01-2016 09:54 PM

About time someone released a vented hood solution with some actual thought behind it! :burnrubber:

Sincerely,

Zach

CSG Mike 02-01-2016 10:26 PM

As promised.

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...20900408_o.jpg

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...93966320_o.jpg

plucas 02-01-2016 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2527930)
Powerful fans can pull more air through the radiator, than can be pushed through naturally at speed. The fans on the CSG car are so powerful that they require their own relay and independent power source (60 amps!)

The only fans that can flow large amounts of air that I have seen are mechanical fans. The most powerful Spal fan that I can find flows 2000cfm at 0 mm of H2O (which isn't realistic because there will be pressure drop). The air flow decreases at a higher pressure drop (mm of H2O). The air flow would be closer to 1500cfm depending on the core design. The ft86 core flows 3000cfm at a realistic 14mph of airflow though the radiator.

CSG Mike 02-01-2016 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plucas (Post 2530884)
The only fans that can flow large amounts of air that I have seen are mechanical fans. The most powerful Spal fan that I can find flows 2000cfm at 0 mm of H2O (which isn't realistic because there will be pressure drop). The air flow decreases at a higher pressure drop (mm of H2O). The air flow would be closer to 1500cfm depending on the core design. The ft86 core flows 3000cfm at a realistic 14mph of airflow though the radiator.

Under ideal condition, yes. In real world conditions.... not so much.

We use two of these. https://webstore.spalusa.com/content..._2038_SPEC.pdf

At about 275whp, we were overheating the car quite easily. Swap the stock shroud with a CSG shroud (or any shroud that fits really), two of those fans, and voila, zero heat issues. As you stated, we have quite a bit of restriction in front of the fan, so we use the fan that maintains the most flow under pressure.

As an aside, the CSG s2k, with about 450whp, overheated with the stock fans on the stock radiator, at the track. That's obviously predictable. Without any fans the car still overheats. Add *one* of these Spal fans, and zero heat issues. We even added it to the passenger side of the radiator, which is the less ideal solution due to the S2k's radiator design (inlet about 70% of the way to the passenger side, outlet on the driver side).

Often times, real world results trump theory, especially when we're talking street cars with street car cooling systems, rather than the fully sealed and ducted systems often seen on race cars.

I've lost count of how many overheating FI cars have come to us and had their issues solved with just a simple fan shroud and powerful fan setup. Vents further enhance the effectiveness, just by allowing more air to flow, whether the powerful fans are present or not.

plucas 02-01-2016 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2530901)
Under ideal condition, yes. In real world conditions.... not so much.

We use two of these. https://webstore.spalusa.com/content..._2038_SPEC.pdf

At about 325whp, we were overheating the car quite easily. Swap the stock shroud with a CSG shroud (or any shroud that fits really), two of those fans, and voila, zero heat issues. As you stated, we have quite a bit of restriction in front of the fan, so we use the fan that maintains the most flow under pressure.

As an aside, the CSG s2k, with about 450whp, overheated with the stock fans on the stock radiator, at the track. That's obviously predictable. Without any fans the car still overheats. Add *one* of these Spal fans, and zero heat issues. We even added it to the passenger side of the radiator, which is the less ideal solution due to the S2k's radiator design (inlet about 70% of the way to the passenger side, outlet on the driver side).

Often times, real world results trump theory, especially when we're talking street cars with street car cooling systems, rather than the fully sealed and ducted systems often seen on race cars.

I've lost count of how many overheating FI cars have come to us and had their issues solved with just a simple fan shroud and powerful fan setup. Vents further enhance the effectiveness, just by allowing more air to flow, whether the powerful fans are present or not.

If you aren't getting proper airflow through your radiator, that sounds like a design problem. Fans are a bandaid to the real problem. I am talking theory and real world experience. I have seen many many many racecars running without fans around the track. It is about proper airflow.

I am not saying fans won't fix an issue, but fans will not outflow normal flow through a radiator.

CSG Mike 02-01-2016 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plucas (Post 2530908)
If you aren't getting proper airflow through your radiator, that sounds like a design problem. Fans are a bandaid to the real problem. I am talking theory and real world experience. I have seen many many many racecars running without fans around the track. It is about proper airflow.

I am not saying fans won't fix an issue, but fans will not outflow normal flow through a radiator.

Please, tell that to Subaru/Toyota, because I'd love to have more cooling from the factory! The car is already overcooled as it is. It's only with FI, and with hard driving, that cooling becomes an issue. I'd say the cooling on this car is actually exceptionally well done for a $27k car, given that it's reasonably well ducted, with air guides, and even foam to fill the gaps, from the factory. Very little air going in the front opening, that isn't going into the intake, escapes around the radiator.

We have an FMIC, 2 oil coolers, and AC condenser in front of our intercooler. An FMIC or heat exchanger + 1 oil cooler + AC Condenser is the most common configuration we see, and unfortunately with that much restriction, you don't get anywhere near the flow you need to keep cool at the track.

sw20kosh 02-02-2016 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by plucas (Post 2530908)
If you aren't getting proper airflow through your radiator, that sounds like a design problem. Fans are a bandaid to the real problem. I am talking theory and real world experience. I have seen many many many racecars running without fans around the track. It is about proper airflow.

I am not saying fans won't fix an issue, but fans will not outflow normal flow through a radiator.

Lol the car came from the factory with horrible air flow.

kikew 02-02-2016 09:05 AM

@CSG Mike Thats a really nice design. Only question is where does the water go when it rains? Does it go inside? Thanks

King Tut 02-02-2016 11:22 AM

So are these any different than the S2000 ones? @Reaper installed the S2000 ones on his car. I am considering a set for my S2000 as well.

CSG Mike 02-02-2016 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikew (Post 2531173)
@CSG Mike Thats a really nice design. Only question is where does the water go when it rains? Does it go inside? Thanks

If you're parked in the rain, then yes, it would just drip inside. If you're racing in the rain, then you'd actually see water going in through the front of the car through the opening fly out through the vents.

A cover is in the works for cars that are being parked in the rain, but the covers are *not* designed to stay on the car when the car is being raced.

CSG Mike 02-02-2016 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Tut (Post 2531284)
So are these any different than the S2000 ones? @Reaper installed the S2000 ones on his car. I am considering a set for my S2000 as well.

While the same basic theories apply, the exact shape and dimensions are slightly different.

We have the S2000 vents too, but for pure cooling purposes, they're interchangeable (but not ideal).

crazyfrenchbiker 02-02-2016 04:11 PM

Hey Mike, it's Gilbert.

Think we can make these fit with the VIS AMS Hood? If you have dimensions of the placement, I can measure it up.

http://www.stancenation.com/wp-conte...G_75131860.jpg

Cheers,
Gilbert

CSG David 02-02-2016 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeC (Post 2527939)
Wow! yeah, I guess the CSG car wouldn't have cooling issues.

;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw20kosh (Post 2531076)
Lol the car came from the factory with horrible air flow.

The hood lifts at speed and vibrates quite a bit. The Trackspec louvers caused the hood to suction to the body and required us to make changes to the wing angle to compensate for the aero bias. This is quite different from all the different vented hoods we have worked with for this particular platform. :party0030:

scudzey 02-02-2016 05:54 PM

So I just got my set in today and the kit looks great. Well detailed instructions with solid card stock templates to setup cut lines for this. Will post pictures and more this weekend when I do the install.

themajesticone 02-02-2016 06:11 PM

So glad you guys are selling these. I expect to purchase soon since summer is approaching.

CounterSpace Garage 02-02-2016 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchbiker (Post 2531870)
Hey Mike, it's Gilbert.

Think we can make these fit with the VIS AMS Hood? If you have dimensions of the placement, I can measure it up.

http://www.stancenation.com/wp-conte...G_75131860.jpg

Cheers,
Gilbert

The placement might get a little tough especially with those vents you have on your hood already. We'll get some measurements when time permits.

midnight23 02-02-2016 07:25 PM

will order these once rain solution is ready :thumbup:

CSG Mike 02-02-2016 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchbiker (Post 2531870)
Hey Mike, it's Gilbert.

Think we can make these fit with the VIS AMS Hood? If you have dimensions of the placement, I can measure it up.

http://www.stancenation.com/wp-conte...G_75131860.jpg

Cheers,
Gilbert

The leading edge is 11.0" wide, increasing to 14.2" wide at the trailing edge. The inner edge is 19.1" long, while the outer edge is 19.55" long.

This is assuming that the rounded corners are actually "sharp" edges for the sake of measurement.

crazyfrenchbiker 02-03-2016 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2532298)
The leading edge is 11.0" wide, increasing to 14.2" wide at the trailing edge. The inner edge is 19.1" long, while the outer edge is 19.55" long.

This is assuming that the rounded corners are actually "sharp" edges for the sake of measurement.

Looks like it'll fit by cutting out the bottom two vents. Want to ship me a set so I can try?

CSG Mike 02-03-2016 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crazyfrenchbiker (Post 2532550)
Looks like it'll fit by cutting out the bottom two vents. Want to ship me a set so I can try?

Sure can. PM us your paypal, or order on the website :thumbsup:

8686 02-03-2016 12:59 PM

I was looking for CSG radiator shroud on your website but I didnt find it

can you help with a link @CSG_mike


Sent from my 86 using Tapatalk

CSG David 02-03-2016 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 8686 (Post 2533265)
I was looking for CSG radiator shroud on your website but I didnt find it

can you help with a link @CSG_mike


Sent from my 86 using Tapatalk

We haven't quite released the final shroud yet. There are several cars running the CSG shrouds to help provide additional feedback on our prototype. ;)

Lunatic 02-05-2016 01:20 AM

Looks like they extend down under the hood quite a bit. Will they work with the Edelbrock supercharger?

scudzey 02-06-2016 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunatic (Post 2536561)
Looks like they extend down under the hood quite a bit. Will they work with the Edelbrock supercharger?

Just got it installed on my car with an Edelbrock and it fits with zero issues.

http://i.imgur.com/eetK8SY.png

Lunatic 02-07-2016 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scudzey (Post 2538759)
Just got it installed on my car with an Edelbrock and it fits with zero issues.

http://i.imgur.com/eetK8SY.png

Good to know, thank you.

zdr93523 02-11-2016 02:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Photo courtesy of CamAutoMag.com.

I have been testing the Trackspec Motorsports hood vents since last year and I 100% concur with CSG's statements regarding cooling and the aero balance change. These are simply the most effective vents available.

sw20kosh 03-21-2016 05:37 PM

Track Spec Vents Track Tested
 
2/21/2016 (no vents) vs 3/19/2016 (vents installed)

Track: Thunderhill West
Ambient Temps: 70-75 F for both days
Setup: JRSC 8psi pulley on e85 (330 whp), ACE 350 Header, ACE FP, Tein SRC coilovers, 255/40/17 Nitto NT-01 tires
Lap Times: 1:25:50 (2/21/2016) vs 1:25:30 (3/19/2016)

Here is a single session (blue is with Track Spec Hood Vents, red is without):
Top graph is Coolant Temp, bottom is Oil Temp
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...86101641_o.jpg

Here is a zoomed in shot to the fastest lap on each day (blue is with Vents):
Top graph is Coolant Temp, bottom graph is Intake Temp

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...94025358_o.jpg

As far as aerodynamics is concerned, I noticed less understeer this time around. This makes me happy.



Here is some fun footage from 3/19 chasing my friend's BRZ who has pretty much the exact same setup minus the supercharger but + aero. These laps were not for fastest time, just for some fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pc1...ature=youtu.be

CSG David 03-21-2016 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw20kosh (Post 2591234)
2/21/2016 (no vents) vs 3/19/2016 (vents installed)

Track: Thunderhill West
Ambient Temps: 70-75 F for both days
Setup: JRSC 8psi pulley on e85 (330 whp), ACE 350 Header, ACE FP, Tein SRC coilovers, 255/40/17 Nitto NT-01 tires
Lap Times: 1:25:50 (2/21/2016) vs 1:25:30 (3/19/2016)

Here is a single session (blue is with Track Spec Hood Vents, red is without):
Top graph is Coolant Temp, bottom is Oil Temp
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...86101641_o.jpg

Here is a zoomed in shot to the fastest lap on each day (blue is with Vents):
Top graph is Coolant Temp, bottom graph is Intake Temp

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphoto...94025358_o.jpg

As far as aerodynamics is concerned, I noticed less understeer this time around. This makes me happy.



Here is some fun footage from 3/19 chasing my friend's BRZ who has pretty much the exact same setup minus the supercharger but + aero. These laps were not for fastest time, just for some fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pc1...ature=youtu.be

Nice recorded data @sw20kosh! Glad to see that these louvers are working extremely well. @juliog needed to add wing angle to take advantage of the extra downforce! :thumbup:

BDotG 04-11-2016 01:00 AM

@CSG Mike

Few questions as I really am interested in a set of these.

1.) How does cutting through the hoods supports effect the overall strength of the hood?
2.) Any rain guards developed? Stuck parking outside all the time :(

I have been looking at the velox louver kit but I kind them too small for my taste however they don't cut through the reenforcement ribs on the hood and they also come with rain guards.

I notice my oil temps getting way up there during my sprinted drives, thinking the oil cooler route but I don't track enough (just some autocross) so I've wondered if venting my hood would be a better route. The CSG ones look badass as well ;)

Edit: Also N/A but going flex fuel soon.

CSG Mike 04-11-2016 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDotG (Post 2617325)
@CSG Mike

Few questions as I really am interested in a set of these.

1.) How does cutting through the hoods supports effect the overall strength of the hood?
2.) Any rain guards developed? Stuck parking outside all the time :(

I have been looking at the velox louver kit but I kind them too small for my taste however they don't cut through the reenforcement ribs on the hood and they also come with rain guards.

I notice my oil temps getting way up there during my sprinted drives, thinking the oil cooler route but I don't track enough (just some autocross) so I've wondered if venting my hood would be a better route. The CSG ones look badass as well ;)

Edit: Also N/A but going flex fuel soon.

1. Remember, the lovuers are replacing the structure you're removing, and the louvers are thicker than the stock hood.

2. In the plans, but not super high on the priority list; we had a bunch of owners drive through pouring rain to get to 86CUP last weekend, and also park outside in the rain overnight, with zero issues.

If your oil temps are high, you need an oil cooler; hood louvers will not help much with oil temps without an oil cooler. You don't have to be at the track to be driving hard enough to get oil temps up.

BDotG 04-11-2016 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 2617901)
1. Remember, the lovuers are replacing the structure you're removing, and the louvers are thicker than the stock hood.

2. In the plans, but not super high on the priority list; we had a bunch of owners drive through pouring rain to get to 86CUP last weekend, and also park outside in the rain overnight, with zero issues.

If your oil temps are high, you need an oil cooler; hood louvers will not help much with oil temps without an oil cooler. You don't have to be at the track to be driving hard enough to get oil temps up.

All good to know! I am sure I could fab something for rain parking. PNW sucks in the winter haha. Should be ordering soon. :)


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:00 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.