Pop goes the 86
 

So, since my last update on 22nd November when the car was at Brands Hatch for a show & shine competition, you may have noticed I've been a bit quiet...
Today, I am back to break my silence! Many of you have been asking questions over the past few weeks and it seems that there have been a few rumours flying around as well. I told a select few over Christmas what I knew then, but today I got to see the real extent of the damage.

Unfortunately, during the last dyno run of the day at Abbey Motorsport at the end of November for the final stage of tuning, Mark phoned me to break the bad news that the engine had gone pop (more of a BANG according to him!) and that we need to strip the engine down after just 2,100 miles of running after being rebuilt with the HKS stroker kit.

After finishing the call with Mark, my head was all over the place. We were both very confused as to how this could happen after we've ensured that every single component necessary to be upgraded to take the new charger was looked at. This project has been months in the making and to hear that it had let go after such a short amount of running time, I was absolutely gutted. I told Mark that there was no rush to get it looked at as I had no plans for the car until Spring 2016 - I wanted to make sure that we didn't rush into anything and see what has happened before we made any further plans.

However, over the Christmas break, my mind started jumping to all sorts of conclusions. I started doing some research on other 86's that had gone bang and came across various threads on the FT86 forum stating that the rocker pins for the cams are prone to failure on boosted engines due to poor manufacturing quality control in the factory. Below are a couple of pictures showing what can happen and a comparison of 2 OEM rockers which you can see are quite different

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps0gvhcyoc.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps9bxblwy3.jpg

Praying that this was the issue, I started to look at stronger heads which there are a few companies in the States that offer such services and products. But unfortunately, Mark confirmed that it was a rod that had let go so my hopes were smashed and I once again felt absolutely gutted that a main component that we had upgraded was at fault.

Over the weeks I even started to look at completely changing my plans for the car. 2JZ and LS swaps were investigated, but I was just getting ahead of myself before knowing all the facts and I don't really have a spare £15k for an engine conversion...I even seriously considered selling the car in recent weeks. Just jacking it all in and starting with something new. But I've somehow managed to hold onto my optimism and stick with my original plans despite the situation we're currently in.

Today I met with Mark to see the devastation for myself. It's not pretty - I'll let the pictures do the talking...

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psngw0igfb.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psmm47loeh.jpg

Picture showing that the big end bearing is perfectly fine and was still attached to the crank

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps5xojy2zt.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psfsddxjt0.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psailnfcnc.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psfxxpisno.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...psqazg5hbs.jpg

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...ps4cxcxfiz.jpg

Basically, rod #4 has decided not to play ball. Although the rods aren't actually forged like the pistons and crank are, they are still made of a "high strength material" according to HKS which are rated to 550ps (about 500bhp) so this should have happened.

All of the bearings on the crank are fine and the crank itself is perfectly serviceable. Piston #4 has the large chunk taken out of the side so it looks as if the small connecting end has suffered as a result of the rod snapping. As it was all still connected to the crank, this has then "windmilled" around inside the crank case causing the huge gouge marks in the case itself. AMAZINGLY none of the valves are bent and both heads are fine...HOW? We have no idea :lol:

Mark has had a sample of oil inspected and tested by Millers who have reported back with the oil performing as it should with no issues. So there was no oil starvation or anything that caused this. It simply looks to be a faulty part. Mark has been speaking to Maz at HKS about all this who will be inspecting the parts himself next week before sending them onto Japan for an official inspection and report.

Whilst I fully appreciate that internals come with no warranty as such, running at just over half the 500bhp rating and with only 2,100 miles on them, I would never expect to see such a major failure as this. Yes it's extremely disappointing but I have full confidence in Maz. HKS and their products - it's just one of those things unfortunately.

The next few weeks will probably be even more nerve-racking than the last few months while I wait to hear back from HKS. We'll just have to wait and see...

Miracles are often lost in the tragedy that is a blown engine.

In for results.

What annoys me most is that we chucked so much money into buying on the best parts for this build. I could have saved at least £2k by using other pistons and rods but I wanted the HKS stroker kit for the extra capacity and the brand name, yet it still let me down :iono:

Just imagine if you'd gone with the Trust/GReddy one for 6k USD!

Wow, I thought the HKS rods were forged. Good to know. Looks like I'll be sticking with 2L displacement in my future build

With the exchange rate from £ to $, the HKS kit was probably around that!

I did too. With the pistons and the crank being forged, it would make sense to have the rods forged too...I've asked my contact at HKS to see if he can find out why they're not

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "don't use HKS parts" as we all know how amazing the quality of their parts usually is. I genuinely think this is a single rod that has maybe slipped through the quality control net and I'm just extremely unlucky.

HKS wouldn't release a product if they weren't 110% certain that it could take the 500bhp they rate it at. I think this rod just didn't want to play anymore and it's extremely rare. The fact that the crank is still 100% usable just shows how good the quality of the stroker kit really is

Sorry to see that this has let go
looks like its failed around the lubrication hole on the small end ?

these need to be off the main rod axis as a rule so you would have two small holes at 45 degrees to the main beam?
also deburring of these holes on either side is crucial to prevent cracks initiating also is there any kind of small end bush ? as I don't see one and this also helps a great deal in reducing galling and stress

I was looking into the HKS kit or waiting for Cosworth to release some forged internals. But it does puzzle me that the rods aren't forged. Also, doesn't the HKS stroker kit increase the compression ratio slightly? Do you think that would have something to do with it?

That's pretty much how stock rods fail. Most rods are not forged as a rod they are cut from forged billet steel, so the HKS are not unlike other rods from Brian Crower and other folks.

Manley rods afaik are forged and thus why they are considerably more expensive.

If anything, when building an engine i think about it like this; what part has the most force being acted upon it? Sure the crank has to deal with the rotational inertia and can rightly so.

Pistons have to hold up against constant heat and combustion many times in a fraction of a second. You generally dont see pistons getting holes melted into them with this engine.

Con rods. They connect the crank to the piston (basics 101). They experience two types of loads. Combustion loads and interial loads. Both being compressive and one being tensile.

One reason why I think con rods are the most important of the three, another reason why they should be forged. Even hypereutetic con rods can only get you so far. Last time I checked, they werent made of anything exotic like 7075.

We're not seeing any signs of oil starvation for any of the components. The oil report from Millers shows that the oil performance was satisfactory

The small end looks to have let go and then caused the rod to windmill around and smash into pieces when hitting the block

All parts are being sent off to Japan to be investigated

It lowers it very slightly and with the 1.0mm gasket kit it should be around 10:1

understood

I know you're committed to the HKS parts but I would highly recommend sourcing a rod with a copper beryliium bush on the little end if you can

unless the HKS part does actually have this?

I don't think it does

The main reason for the HKS kit was having the extra capacity and the brand of HKS being well known so I've got the support if anything did ever go wrong

Parts are being sent off to Japan next week so fingers crossed we get a quick and positive response

Hey smudge with the Ozzy $ heading further south every day an LS 2 swap would be a possible option one would think .

So glad I got forged rods when I look at this :(

Sorry to hear about your failure. That rod doesn't look very beefy, and this is quite similar to the high torque FA20 failures we have seen with the stock hardware. If you plan on running anything over 300 torque the only real option is to use a quality forged rod, I.E. Carrillo, Manley, or whatever Cosworth may be releasing. You may see some cast type rods with strong bolts and stroker kits used for NA applications to save weight/cost. But you won't find that on a high HP application like you're trying to do here with the supercharger.

Not to say some other factors weren't what led to the failure, but regardless I'd only go with a stout forged H beam or I beam rod when doing such a build.

Well that's exactly my issue. I would expect HKS to be high quality but it's confusing that the rods aren't forged liked the pistons and crank are.

We had about 260ftlbs at the wheels so we were closing in on the 300 figure you state but again HKS rate this kit to much higher figures so it shouldn't happen

have you considered there was an event of large detonation during the run or some kind of installation error?

I can understand stock motors are hit and miss and can blow up anytime. I also understand there's always the possibility an HKS part slipped through quality control (although would be unlikely).

Although I agree stock rods are weak, I for one have been running at 383 wtq for two years now, and they held on the dyno and a few runs at 471 wtq.

Of course, my experience does not mean any and all stock rods can take that much power. I know stock rods have bent on very mild builds, but man that kind of carnage with just around 260 lb-ft is unbelievable.

In for updates.

I am sorry to here this.
Although HKS states Forged Crank and Forged pistons.
Directly from the site it says:
Nothing about being forged. They are probably a Billet rod to reduce production costs VS making a new forging for the rod. Although all the new F motors from Subaru are going with a Angled rod we may be in luck in the future for kits from HKS.

The other reason I skipped HKS's full kit on my build and only purchased the crank was the Rod to stroke ratio. Although not stated on the site I doubt they got back to anything near stock which kills the top power and has a severe rod angle in the case against the cylinder wall. Which can result with the OP results.

Source:
http://www.hks-power.co.jp/en/produc...city/fa20.html

2.3ltr Build below
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63901

All the data they present there is with CAMs on an N/A car... surprised they dont talk about the SC kit.

No sign of det whatsoever from the logs and for I'd be surprised if it was an install error for 2 main reasons:

1. Abbey Motorsport are well known here in the UK and have done all sorts of performance engine builds across various models for decades

2. It wouldn't last 2,100miles if there was something wrong from the start

So many ideas being thrown around at the moment. Until HKS come back with their report it's hard to say really

Best of luck, friend. Been following your build for quite sometime. You went out with a motor, I went out with a car!

Wow. Carnage, wtf?! In for updates, as well!

Are you going to go with HKS again once everything is fixed?

It all depends on what HKS come back with to be honest

There are 5 possible outcomes from this:

1. HKS find a fault, supply a new set of rod, compensate me for the block and installation cost - unlikely but hopeful with my contact at HKS being a good friend of mine so hopefully he can pull some strings

2. HKS find a fault and supply me with a new set of rods but won't compensate for any of the additional cost for the block or install - far from ideal as I don't really have the cash to pay for the block and install all over again

3. HKS don't offer anything and put it down to an installation issue. Then it's a difficult conversation with Abbey but this is very unlikely in my opinion

4. HKS don't offer anything but don't put it down to install issue - I MAY have a backup plan which will involve selling the 335 charger and a few other bits to fund the new project

5. Sell all the parts off the car and just be done with it - least likely option as I'm still in love with her :wub:

Time will tell...

6. ???

7. Profit

:lol:

http://www.hks-power.co.jp/product/86brz_parts/

part number of con Rod for HKS 2.1kit is 23004-AT001

and they say it's forged in HKS japanese site.

" 鍛造 means forged"

Interesting that it mentions "forging" but doesn't actually say "forged rods" like the "forged pistons" bit...might just be a translation thing

smudge were you running e85? can't remember

pretty difficult to get E85 in the Uk
so I doubt it

however we can get 98RON ( 93MON US) pretty much everywhere

WTH is up, I have been hearing of countless thing HKS giving in recent months/year. From their supercharger kit that strip the blower after a few 100 miles, blown/defect engine parts, etc.


I used to hold a dear place in my heart for HKS as their products were always top notch and failure rate was minimal but recent months are reshaping my opinion about the company and their products.


Anyone know if they've changed manufacturing country/company, source material, change in leadership? I mean something must've happened for that many failures surfacing.

Nope, only option is around £180 (around $300) for a 50litre barrel - so 1 tank in the 86...decided against that

I think I've made my mind up what to do next. HKS haven't confirmed it yet, but it sounds like I'll be getting a replacement stroker kit and potentially a new block. But it's doubtful they'd pay for any of the install or labour to get it back to running form, and I really don't fancy shelling out any more money on the FA20 to simply go back to where I was 6 months ago

So...I think a V8 swap might be in order! Weighing up the parts that I can sell (NEW stroker kit, cams, injectors, clutch, flywheel, oil pump, oil cooler, Sprintex 335 etc) I should just about have enough to fund a fairly unique V8 project :thumbup:

Also historically HKS have been extremely conservative in their tested/safe rates. I remember seeing two identical blowers a few years back and the other company had it rated at 300ps while hks had it around 225-250.

I think most companies do that to give themselves a "cushion" as such when people try and push the limits

Man. That looks terrible!
In my (very amateur) opinion... I'm with @fumanchu1 on this. I've seen too many hks parts with problems recently.
I'm guessing you got a faulty part and it's just bad luck... But that v8 swap might just be a silver lining!

I've toyed with that idea myself - keen to see if you do it :-)

Cool

what V8 ? Lexus, Jag, BMW? LS7? Ford Coyote?

Just need to find a buyer(s) for my supercharger and new engine bits from HKS. This will fund my V8 swap and I've had a lot of interest, just not the right people wanting the right bits just yet