My S2000 vs GT86 Steering feel comments/questions. Anybody else own both?
 

I own both a 2002 AP1 S2k with 22k miles with Bridgestone RE-71r tires and a 2013 Scion FRS (also known as GT86) with 57k miles with Michelin Pilot Super Sports. (Both of these tire sets are aggressive summer tires, with the s2k's tire set being a bit grippier.) Both cars in great condition. I've owned the S2k for 6 months (put on 5k miles) and GT86 for 3 years (put on 50k miles). I've tracked the GT86 4 times, and doing 1st track day in s2k next month. I've done several back to back spirited driving session comparison on the street with both cars recently. Long story short, I love both cars and prefer the Engine/Transmission of the s2k but prefer the steering/chassis feel and lower center of gravity of the GT86.

I want the s2k to be the perfect car, but still can't get over how good the GT86 steering and overall chassis handling is when I switch back and forth between each car. Any others that own both cars feel the same way? Am I crazy or missing something? Don't get me wrong the s2k handling still feels good, but I feel I can drive the at 10/10 on the Gt86 easier, more predictably, and safer than I can on the S2k (at least with my two car samples, both in stock form). Maybe this makes sense and is expected considering the AP1 is known to have a bit twitchy handling at the limit. FRS just seems more stable and controllable all around.. steering feel in turns, more stable under hard braking when threshold braking at the limit, and even in a straight under full acceleration while shifting.. and again the steering feel during all of these inputs feels better in Gt86. Perhaps the 14 yr old age of my s2k has affected the suspension balance and tuning of my sample some (maybe I need to take it to a race shop here for a thorough inspection and freshening up). Also I think my front passenger side suspension may be out of spec... needing perhaps a new control arm or knuckle.. I was only able to get -0.5 degrees of camber max?? (my alignment: FCaster 6.1deg, FCamber -0.4 deg max, FToe 0.0, RCamber -1.7deg (not maxed), RToe +0.24deg total). Also, I did recently get under my car and inspect both the front and rear subframe alignment and bolts.. my subframe alignment is right on, and most of the bolts were all tight to torque spec (only a few needed a slight tightening).

Again anyone else own both cars, and feel similar? Any advice on what you have done to improve steering/chasis feel or too settle down the handling to feel a bit more forgiving when driving at 10/10? I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for as I like both s2k and gt86 agressive oversteer easily driftable handling... but I just want to improve the s2k steering feel more in line with gt86. Perhaps I should have got the AP2 as it is known to be more forgiving with it's bigger tires, lower redline, softer suspension, heavier flywheel... but FRS still felt very controllable on the stock OEM prius tires when new even though those stock tires were very slick (back end would chirp and slide around, but still felt very easy to control at 10/10 driving).

Hoping not to get flamed here too much, and not meant to bash the s2k at all. I love the s2k. Although I must also give credit to the Gt86, as they did very good with the steering and chasis. Just in the effort of constant improvement, I'm trying to see if others shared similar feedback and any tips on what they have done to improve their s2k handling/steering feel and overall performance? Again, perhaps my s2k needs some tuning (starting with fixing my front right -0.5deg max camber)!?

coilovers for your s2k should fix that issue to an extent. When my friend had his with kw club sports or v3's (he's had both), it definitely helped with the tail happy s2k in terms of feel and Lap times. The shorter wheelbase and suspension tuning has much to do with that car's characteristics. I think you need to give the s2k more time in terms of driving to really appreciate its uniqueness. That car will definitely make you a better driver over time.

Give it some track time to see if you feel the same way in a few months time. Also, does your ap1 have 16 or 17 in wheels? The stock 16 inch wheels could be a factor due to the larger sidewall.

I have both 2007 AP2 and 2017 BRZ

The earlier s2000 are known to be hard to control, be careful when pushing it, it will eat you up and spit you out if you don't get it right. I really do mean it. As for the steering feel, for me it's different because I have the new BRZ so it's not like the ones prior it's softer In feel, and not as raw as the earlier 2013 model. I do t have enough data yet because I've only driven the old 86 for a couple weeks for work on and off and I only placed 200 miles on my 2017 which is still in break in, My s2000 still handles and is more of a race car, this is because I have full coil system,brakes, race wheels and tires (Goodrich Rivals) it was set up for STR and some track days. Thought I only had few opportunity to track it because I also have a NB miata at I'm more happy to track since I really baby the S2000.

You're absolutely right, the 86 doesn't matter the model is easier to drive. I really do think you need someone special or someone that's experienced with the s2000 to really bring out it's potential. Remember it's a front midship car so it has a characteristics of both a MR and FR car.

Take your time and learn it well, I'm happy I have both but you really gotta Be on point wih the Ap1 I really in my opinion think it's much harder to control than a AP2 or a Twin. Have fun!

We own 2 AP1 S2ks, and 2 86s. The S2ks are both running square setup, 265/18s all around, with decent coilovers...KW V3s on the wife's stock body, ISC Street valved 10k all around on my Amuse widebody. Switching from stock wheels/tires/suspension to a square setup wheels/tires with stiffer suspension, I thought for sure that it would make the AP1 have too much front authority, and surely induce crazy oversteer. In fact, the opposite occurs. The cars are much more controllable at the limits now, I can go in hot on entry, and it will just lightly understeer all the way to the point that I get on the throttle, then it gently transitions to oversteer. This has a lot to do with the alignment, and yes you could make a square setup oversteer like mad with enough front camber and rear toe-out, but we just run a sensible alignment, couple of degrees of neg. camber up front, a little neg. camber in rear, toe in slightly front and rear. Works for us, something for you to think about.

Comparing steering, I actually prefer the steering on the S2k because there is a known issue with the electric-assist steering rack on the 86 when you go to wider, sticky rubber up front. We are also running 265/18 square setups on the 86s (trend?) and I'm constantly having to deal with overworking the steering pump mid corner, losing steering assist so the wheel gets all stiff for a second, then it comes back...makes it hard to be consistent at the limits, and just kills some of the fun unfortunately. :(

Hope that helps some, let me know if you have any other questions. @CSG_Mike also has some experience in both vehicles at the limits and might be of some help.

See here for my comparison of the two: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=s2000


Honestly OP, I HIGHLY doubt that you can feel the center of gravity difference in handling between the two cars, as it's not too different between the two cars. What should be more noticeable is the S2000's superior weight distribution. With the engine and transmission entirely mounted behind the front axle the S2000 has a 49/51 weight distribution and considerably smaller moment of inertia than the BRZ.

My opinion, is that any perceived notion of handling inferiority for your S2000 is a result of the car (as you mentioned) possibly needing some suspension parts replaced, or your lack of familiarity with the car. Again my opinion, and I don't have much seat time in AP1s.

:thumbsup:

Unrelated, but two thumbs up for Kongo! Best boat.

Isn't the AP1 known to get loose too quickly??? Is it possible that the weight distribution isn't "superior" for anyone but the most skilled drivers thus making the 86 technically the better handler for most?

Serious question, I haven't driven an S2000. I just remember all of the talk years ago about people wrapping them around trees. :lol:

Most people forget it's a Front Mid Ship, the engine sits close to the middle, so it is harder to drive well. It does need skill drivers to drive it well. But man if you drive it well you're a good driver in my eyes. 86 is pretty easy compared to it .The superior part I think really only applies to when you're actually tracking it for milliseconds.

The Miata is a better comparison to the 86 in this sense everyone can drive it well and it's easy.

Also, I always like the make the argument that an AP2 is better but that would be me being bias :P

And remember the S2000 was designed in the 90s the 86 was designed 10 year or more later I sure lots of things would be different lol

I have owned and tracked both. My experience is limited with the S2000, but i can say without a doubt you will become a better driver in the long run with the Honda. When i first went and test drove an S2000 and the BRZ back to back a few years ago (before i got into AX and DE), i thought the BRZ was stable and the S2000 twitchy. So, i bought a BRZ.

Since, i have owned two more BRZs (3 in total), all built to different levels and for different purposes. However, my last one was destroyed by an old man who t-boned me when he was not paying attention. But no one was hurt, so all is good. After AX/tracking various cars over the last two years I decided to re-visit the S2000. Now, I look at the car quite differently. It is sharper and requires smoother inputs, but man this car rotates well. I wont even go into the F22C vs FA20, I will stick mainly to handling and driver perception.

It is much easier to drive the BRZ, over the S2000. It is more stable, and communicates well. Still has one of the best turn-in feelings from a car that i have ever driven. I think i still prefer the turn-in feeling over the 987 and 981 Caymans. Definitely best in its price range. But after turn-in ...is where the BRZ loses its charm. That stability starts to work against you as you progress as a driver. I personally started to get bored. The S2000, a car that worried me on the track a few years ago now fit me perfectly. I am far from an expert but here are my thoughts after moving into an S2000.

The BRZ understeers alot compared to the S2000.

The S2000 is very adjustable mid-corner, super sensitive to driver inputs. This can be bad for novice drivers.

In corner exit the S2000 is superior when accelerating out. It squats and allows more power, even though both cars have a Torsen LSD.

The BRZ gets boring in the corners compared to the S2000. There is almost always something to learn with the S2000.

All my references are for track driving. On the street I actually prefer driving the BRZ. And I still love the BRZ, but the S2000 gives me a little more room for perfection (and error) while on the track.

Most of the handling trickiness associated with the AP1 is a result of the rear suspension geometry. When the rear suspension is unloaded (from lifting off throttle abruptly or slamming on brakes) a toe-out situation is created. That's great for nimbleness but horrible for stability.

As to which car is a better handling platform to learn with, I learned most of my track skills driving an AP2. And I crashed my BRZ first time out. So what does that tell you? :laughabove::bonk::iono::bellyroll::(

(of course its worth noting that the AP2 had far superior tires, and the BRZ was boosted on stock tires)

And this is why this forum is great, people with real experience weighing in!

I come from 9 years of having a 99 S2000, which I used to track often until I started to get a little bored of doing it. I haven't and probably won't track the 86.

The S2000 when pushed hard would flex quite a lot, even with extra bracing, and that's the big win that our cars have because the tub is very stiff. What did help mine a lot was firstly upgrading the rear lower brace; even though there's one as standard a stiffer one made quite a difference in terms of being able to control on the limit, and secondly replacing the rear toe arms to get rid of (mostly) the questionable RWS effect that Wolfpack talked about above. It then was a car you'd feel more confident playing with on the limit.

If you can only get -0.5 camber in the front then I'd say something is definitely wrong (seized adjusters probably). I think mine was -1.3F -1.6 rear. It's going to turn in a lot better with more front camber.

What still annoys me with the 86 is the throttle. The S2000 (early ones anyway) had this fantastic device for connecting your right foot to the engine called a cable. All sports cars should have one. As somebody said "the S2000 is very adjustable mid corner"; making tiny changes to the throttle to adjust the line is one of the things I always loved. The 86 feels a bit clumsy. But it's fun enough and more practical as a day to day car which was the point for me.

I agree about the 86 needing a throttle cable. There are times where I want more for the car, but the electric throttle holds the car back, even if just for a second.

My question is outside the scope of this thread, but since we are making comparrisons...

You signature shows that you have owned/own 2 Porsche (Cayman & Boxster), can you describe your observations of the 2 compared to your BRZ and S2000 experience?

I expect to purchase a 718 Cayman late 2017 early 2018 and I'm curious to hear the opinion of someone who has owned/driven/raced a stable of cars like yours.

Thanks!