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-   -   Global settings, EQ and time alignment (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145692)

Alastor 06-12-2021 09:01 AM

Global settings, EQ and time alignment
 
Google translator used

Hello

When I installed my Pioneer avh-z9200dab, I did not do any tinkering on the time alignment.

The scene of a quality system is the one that identifies the voice in the center of the dashboard and the rest of the instruments placed each one in the part that corresponds to it according to the recording.

I would like to know of those of you who have an aftermarket radio unit, what has been your time alignment configuration, what parameters, what cuts and frequencies you have used.
It is just for reference.

I will also receive the Pioneer cd-mc20 automatic calibration microphone shortly, so I can compare.

My intention is to achieve a sound as faithful as possible.

My doors are soundproof.

I am currently using 2 French brand amplifiers: Blam ra754d and Blam ra251d.

Thank you

FR-S2GT86 06-12-2021 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441085)
Google translator used

Hello

When I installed my Pioneer avh-z9200dab, I did not do any tinkering on the time alignment.

The scene of a quality system is the one that identifies the voice in the center of the dashboard and the rest of the instruments placed each one in the part that corresponds to it according to the recording.

I would like to know of those of you who have an aftermarket radio unit, what has been your time alignment configuration, what parameters, what cuts and frequencies you have used.
It is just for reference.

I will also receive the Pioneer cd-mc20 automatic calibration microphone shortly, so I can compare.

My intention is to achieve a sound as faithful as possible.

My doors are soundproof.

I am currently using 2 French brand amplifiers: Blam ra754d and Blam ra251d.

Thank you


Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all" setting in car audio. Every system is different and you have to deal with every variable by making adjustments which will affect each other in numerous ways. What works for a 2020 Hakone Edition 86 with stock speakers will not work the same on a 2013 BRZ with aftermarket components and two 10 inch subwoofers.

I would recommend you start here and read all of the articles that Andy Wehmeyer has written on his several subjects that he discusses.

https://www.audiofrog.com/community/...ment-part-one/

These are very informative and well written articles.

soundman98 06-12-2021 02:23 PM

"seasoned to taste"

Alastor 06-12-2021 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3441123)
Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all" setting in car audio. Every system is different and you have to deal with every variable by making adjustments which will affect each other in numerous ways. What works for a 2020 Hakone Edition 86 with stock speakers will not work the same on a 2013 BRZ with aftermarket components and two 10 inch subwoofers.

I would recommend you start here and read all of the articles that Andy Wehmeyer has written on his several subjects that he discusses.

https://www.audiofrog.com/community/...ment-part-one/

These are very informative and well written articles.

Thanks.

Here anyway if there was someone who has done a configuration with the radio to get the voice centered it would be appreciated. As a guide I can do tests based on the configurations that some users have set.

FR-S2GT86 06-12-2021 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441178)
Thanks.

Here anyway if there was someone who has done a configuration with the radio to get the voice centered it would be appreciated. As a guide I can do tests based on the configurations that some users have set.


First thing to do is make sure all of your speakers are in phase with each other, meaning that they all push out and pull in at the same time. Correct any wiring mistakes now before you continue reading. If just one of your speakers is out of phase (with the occasional exception of a tweeter) it will mess everything up.

Next thing to do is answer the questions below:

1) How many speakers are you using in this system?

2) What types of speakers are you using in this system?

3) Where are each of the above speakers placed in the vehicle?

4) Are you wanting to use the head units' Standard Mode or its Network Mode?

Answer those questions and I'll try to get back with you as soon as possible.

Alastor 06-12-2021 06:27 PM

Hi

1 2tweeter + 2 woofer, 2 woofer 4" rear OEM panels, 1 subwoofer.

2 set of OEM audio +, 1" tweeter, 6,5" woofer, 4" rear, 8" sub.

3 OEM and sub in a OEM audio + box.

4 I'm using standard.

FR-S2GT86 06-12-2021 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441210)
Hi

1 2tweeter + 2 woofer, 2 woofer 4" rear OEM panels, 1 subwoofer.

2 set of OEM audio +, 1" tweeter, 6,5" woofer, 4" rear, 8" sub.

3 OEM and sub in a OEM audio + box.

4 I'm using standard.


So, you have speakers in all of the OEM locations plus a subwoofer. Got it. In Standard Mode, the speakers are set up as front left and right, rear left and right, and subwoofer left and right. Keep that in mind.

Couple more questions:

1) Are you using the factory amplifier for the door speakers?

2) How many channels of amplification will you be using in your system?

3) Are you planning to use the head unit to power any of your speakers?

EDIT: I can already see that you're going to have problems trying to get the time alignment to work properly.

Alastor 06-13-2021 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3441234)
So, you have speakers in all of the OEM locations plus a subwoofer. Got it. In Standard Mode, the speakers are set up as front left and right, rear left and right, and subwoofer left and right. Keep that in mind.

Couple more questions:

1) Are you using the factory amplifier for the door speakers?

2) How many channels of amplification will you be using in your system?

3) Are you planning to use the head unit to power any of your speakers?

EDIT: I can already see that you're going to have problems trying to get the time alignment to work properly.

thanks for your time.

I don't think you understood me, maybe because of the translations.

my speaker system is OEM audio plus, but the amplifiers are blam brand, both amplifiers connected by RCA / low, all this connected to my Pioneer, there is no speaker powered by the amplifier of the radio. so all the front, rear and subwoofer channels are separated.

front cut-off: 100Hz -24db
cut back: 125Hz -24db
subwoofer cutoff: 100Hz
-24db

EQ

80Hz +1
125Hz +2
200Hz +1
315Hz +1
1.25k -1
2k -1
3.15k -1
12.5k +1

sound improve: lvl1

soundman98 06-13-2021 10:03 AM

he's saying that to do time alignment correctly, you would need to separate all of the speakers. right now, the tweeters and 6.5" woofers are connected together, which makes it impossible to do any accurate time alignment

Alastor 06-13-2021 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3441305)
he's saying that to do time alignment correctly, you would need to separate all of the speakers. right now, the tweeters and 6.5" woofers are connected together, which makes it impossible to do any accurate time alignment

Ah ok. So but this functions work with standard mode.

FR-S2GT86 06-13-2021 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441322)
Ah ok. So but this functions work with standard mode.


Yes, what @soundman98 said.

However, you might get it to work if you use Network Mode instead, and lose the rear speakers from the system by running the high channels of the Pioneer head unit to feed the signal to the amp for the dash speakers, the low channels of the head unit to feed the signal to the amp for the door speakers, and the sub channels of the head unit to feed the signal to the amp that runs your subwoofer.

Your rear speakers in this case will drastically hurt the sound quality of the front stage that you are trying to create.

Alastor 06-13-2021 01:49 PM

So why does OEM audio plus prefer to use the rear speakers? in fact when I had it working the scene was well executed.

FR-S2GT86 06-13-2021 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441353)
So why does OEM audio plus prefer to use the rear speakers? in fact when I had it working the scene was well executed.


Because the stock BRZ/86 system is what the people who designed the OEM Audio+ system were given to work with. Pioneer doesn’t know what you’re installing their head unit into, but they DO know how their DSP works. Trust me on this, if you’re going for sound quality, the fewer speakers, the better.

K.I.S.S.

K.eep
I.t
S.imple
S.tupid

soundman98 06-13-2021 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441353)
So why does OEM audio plus prefer to use the rear speakers? in fact when I had it working the scene was well executed.

Oem audio expects you to use the factory radio, use their amp, and contact them for any further tuning.

Once you ditched the factory radio, you're on your own as far as tuning goes, and you're even further on your own once you selected a different brand of amp.

Alastor 06-13-2021 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3441364)
Oem audio expects you to use the factory radio, use their amp, and contact them for any further tuning.

Once you ditched the factory radio, you're on your own as far as tuning goes, and you're even further on your own once you selected a different brand of amp.

Ok thanks

FR-S2GT86 06-21-2021 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3441353)
So why does OEM audio plus prefer to use the rear speakers? in fact when I had it working the scene was well executed.


I'm curious as to the results of your Auto TA/EQ process with the test microphone. How did it go?

Alastor 07-30-2021 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3441357)
Because the stock BRZ/86 system is what the people who designed the OEM Audio+ system were given to work with. Pioneer doesn’t know what you’re installing their head unit into, but they DO know how their DSP works. Trust me on this, if you’re going for sound quality, the fewer speakers, the better.

K.I.S.S.

K.eep
I.t
S.imple
S.tupid


I did not answer you because apparently you were rude in what I point out. That he uses the translator does not mean that he is an asshole. If you give me an explanation about that comment, I may answer you.

FR-S2GT86 07-30-2021 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3453020)
I did not answer you because apparently you were rude in what I point out. That he uses the translator does not mean that he is an asshole. If you give me an explanation about that comment, I may answer you.


I was not being rude at all. Anyone that knows me here, knows I want to help them make their audio system sound better. Just ask Mr. @Tcoat.

K.I.S.S. is a common saying here in North America meaning that you'll get better results by not overcomplicating something.

In car audio, if there is a sound quality issue, adding a speaker (or set of speakers) will rarely cure that problem. In fact, it will most likely worsen the problem and cost you more money and time trying to fix it.

In your very first post of this thread, you said:

"I will also receive the Pioneer cd-mc20 automatic calibration microphone shortly, so I can compare.

My intention is to achieve a sound as faithful as possible."

I've got two of those calibration microphones because I've got two Pioneer head units with built-in DSP. I'm fairly confident in what I'm speaking of.

Your Pioneer head unit has six sets of RCA signal outputs. Your built-in DSP can only control up to six separate speakers, no more. Your auto EQ/TA will give you an error if there are more speakers playing than the six allowed when trying to run the Auto EQ/TA procedure.

Figure out the six speakers that you want to run in your system, if I were in your position, personally I would run the two door speakers, the two tweeters in the dash, and your subwoofer.
I would disconnect the rear 4" speakers. Then I would set the Pioneer head unit to Network Mode.

Then I would set all of my amplifier levels to about halfway, and follow the instructions in the operator's manual in running the Auto EQ/TA.

If after the Auto EQ/TA completes successfully, I would listen to the system for a while, maybe several days or even a few weeks, then determine if adding the rear speakers will help or hurt your front stage. My guess, seeing that they will not be time-aligned to the rest of the system, they will actually end up making it sound worse. In this case K.I.S.S. and leave those rear speakers out permanently.

Did you read those AudioFrog articles by Andy Wehmeyer?

Alastor 07-31-2021 08:28 AM

Hello

I was referring to this more specifically.

Keep
Item
Simple
Stupid


I don't know if it must be an expression but that stupid was not pleasant.

Putting that little ending aside, I'm going to tell you what I did.

At the moment I am not going to do anything else, since I have the OEM audio + system again but I will comment on some tests that I did.

The pioneer has an option to completely bypass the rear speakers and only the front and sub are heard. I did an autoEQ with the Pioneer microphone, but in the crosover the front speakers were at full range (it did not seem normal to me), the sub at 80hz and the rear at 125hz (within normal), the equalization was a success when it did. deactivated there is a loss of presence in the media, especially voices and some instruments.

The volume of the front right, co-driver were + 2db, the rear +4 left +3 right. I deduce that the centimeters in delays are correct because a microphone should be more accurate than a tape measure.

The subwoofer activated phase and -3db. I would not know how to tell you but the sound is quite balanced but lacking in weight in the subwoofer.

I managed to configure it my way and get a "good sound", but be sure to try and change options.

I attach some images of my configurations.


The Technical configuration of car-audio shop, without microphones or adjustments by any device

The front cuts are from 100hz to -18db, it does not appear in the image but you can see the slope in the other graphics.


-8db to the front speakers is because, lacking passive crossover, the tweeters screech excessively.


Here we do not apply time correction.

https://i.ibb.co/Bn8zBCM/IMG-20210612-173819.jpg https://i.ibb.co/xDK5sJY/IMG-20210612-173837.jpg https://i.ibb.co/CPKrwq4/IMG-20210612-173851.jpg https://i.ibb.co/gJJJCw9/IMG-20210612-173911.jpg https://i.ibb.co/kDJtPPM/IMG-20210612-174035.jpg

Personal configuration, following some steps of audiofrog.

That configuration is the one that best gave me the feeling that it was offering me, because the other scenes I don't know why the punch was not centered at all, it moved a little to the left while the voices were perfectly centered and coming from the end of the dashboard. , where is that highlight in the middle.


The RTA graph was analyzed with a simple Xiaomi redmi, so it will not be the most accurate, but it gives us an idea of ​​how the system was at that time.



https://i.ibb.co/m5PpJXY/IMG-20210705-202113.jpg https://i.ibb.co/mcthdWK/IMG-20210706-210905.jpg https://i.ibb.co/1zp9wLR/IMG-20210706-210939.jpg https://i.ibb.co/pJnZVnJ/IMG-20210706-210952.jpg https://i.ibb.co/V24rZtd/IMG-20210706-211000.jpg https://i.ibb.co/MMymKvf/IMG-20210706-211048.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/9Hyh3cz/Screenshot-...umanalyzer.jpg


Finally, the last configuration that I have right now is a mix between the sound technician, the autoEQ and the audiofrog. Why? because the subwoofer sounds more to me, the front speakers are at 100hz and do not suffer as much, the delays are respected, the EQ of the autoEQ is respected. Although I like how it sounds more with the previous configuration, I have to say that with the latter it was heard louder and with more presence of the sub.


In short, the autoEQ is quite good and I would recommend it.



Thanks for everything

soundman98 07-31-2021 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alastor (Post 3453243)
Hello

I was referring to this more specifically.

Keep
Item
Simple
Stupid
]

This is a very old American saying. It's a reminder to not make things too complicated.

Alastor 08-01-2021 04:57 AM

Ok I understand. Sorry

thomasmryan 08-01-2021 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3453051)

In car audio, if there is a sound quality issue, adding a speaker (or set of speakers) will rarely cure that problem. In fact, it will most likely worsen the problem and cost you more money and time trying to fix it.





Less is More. A car is a tough room.


A comb filter on the drivers side dash speaker works for me.

thomasmryan 08-01-2021 12:06 PM

go 8 minutes in for a visual on dropouts with multiple high frequency drivers



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GXE...tUoAJg&index=3


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