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-   -   JDL 4-2-1 Header Dyno results! (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140374)

airrick 05-15-2020 04:43 PM

JDL 4-2-1 Header Dyno results!
 
Hello,

gfdfa

tomm.brz 05-15-2020 05:01 PM

great result to me

Mike_ZN6 05-15-2020 06:48 PM

Is the green stock 174hp/135tq the stock header with an ecutek tune? Or is it stock header with stock tune?

Yoshoobaroo 05-15-2020 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331367)
Is the green stock 174hp/135tq the stock header with an ecutek tune? Or is it stock header with stock tune?


Thatís an important distinction

tomm.brz 05-15-2020 07:08 PM

i would assume it s totally stock, probably he dynoed stock, then with jdl just installed and then with etune from Zach

i like it because it has no absurd value :)
very trustable

airrick 05-15-2020 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331367)
Is the green stock 174hp/135tq the stock header with an ecutek tune? Or is it stock header with stock tune?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo (Post 3331368)
That’s an important distinction


i mean if you actually read the bottom of the dyno sheet, it says baseline. who has the kind of money for ecutek license and tune for stock stuff. thats really expensive for stock. that green baseline wasn't actually mine. he took it from a my year twin. 2015. my actual baseline is on another dyno which i did linked.

Lantanafrs2 05-15-2020 09:18 PM

It really filled that torque hole

Mike_ZN6 05-15-2020 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3331412)
i mean if you actually read the bottom of the dyno sheet, it says baseline. who has the kind of money for ecutek license and tune for stock stuff. thats really expensive for stock. that green baseline wasn't actually mine. he took it from a my year twin. 2015. my actual baseline is on another dyno which i did linked.


Yeah, but he also said he had a Gruppe-S header with a tune before he put on the JDL 4-2-1.

airrick 05-15-2020 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331449)
Yeah, but he also said he had a Gruppe-S header with a tune before he put on the JDL 4-2-1.

Yea i said that and then you see a link to the dyno for it. :iono: i wrote stock myself and it says on the bottom baseline. Doesnt that mean stock? I guess i should have specified stock equipment and stock tune.

Meh, im happy with the car anyways.:thumbsup:

PulsarBeeerz 05-16-2020 12:56 AM

Probably the closest we will ever get to JDL 4-2-1 EL vs Ace 350 EL. :D


E48 Ace 350, Ace 3" front pipe and Ace catback tuned by the same tuner iirc and on the same dyno.



https://i.ibb.co/HHrqqHF/84941268-10...11883520-o.jpg

airrick 05-16-2020 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz (Post 3331489)
Probably the closest we will ever get to JDL 4-2-1 EL vs Ace 350 EL. :D


E48 Ace 350, Ace 3" front pipe and Ace catback tuned by the same tuner iirc and on the same dyno.



https://i.ibb.co/HHrqqHF/84941268-10...11883520-o.jpg

I see power! Everywhere. How does it feel? And im jealous of your graph. I emailed neal about mine haha. I want mine with the actual numbers. Nice power

PulsarBeeerz 05-16-2020 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3331502)
I see power! Everywhere. How does it feel? And im jealous of your graph. I emailed neal about mine haha. I want mine with the actual numbers. Nice power


Not mine, I found it on a FB group. lol

JBezugs 05-17-2020 12:01 PM

I'll chime in with my dyno results from last year on my 2017 BRZ.

- JDL 4-2-1 Header
- Stock front pipe and over pipe
- Invidia R400 Catback
- OEM Intake with OEM Paper Air Filter

https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media...qjpgpyb9ip.png

The baseline you see on the sheet is with all the mods above installed with the factory tune, so it's not a true baseline. For reference on this particular dyno, 100% stock 2013-2016 cars put down around 145-150whp on average. Sasha said my car was closer to 155-160whp stock most likely, being a post facelift car.

Mike_ZN6 05-17-2020 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBezugs (Post 3331929)
For reference on this particular dyno, 100% stock 2013-2016 cars put down around 145-150whp on average. Sasha said my car was closer to 155-160whp stock most likely, being a post facelift car.


I'm curious, does this 10hp advantage for the post facelift cars still show up on the dyno after adding header and tune?

airrick 05-17-2020 06:33 PM

a

PulsarBeeerz 05-17-2020 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331934)
I'm curious, does this 10hp advantage for the post facelift cars still show up on the dyno after adding header and tune?

It does not. They simply start with a higher baseline but less "gain" after tuning.

86TOYO2k17 05-17-2020 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331934)
I'm curious, does this 10hp advantage for the post facelift cars still show up on the dyno after adding header and tune?

Itís more like 5 hp. And no. The 5hp gain is from new intake manifold, header and corresponding tune. Although primarily header/tune especially for peak hp. Which Your replacing both. So same end numbers just slightly different before numbers, with pre 17s benefiting 5hp more.

PandaBRZ 05-18-2020 01:24 AM

JDL 4-1 dyno sheet for reference
 
1 Attachment(s)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

churchx 05-18-2020 01:24 AM

There is also a bit of MY2017 airfilter being less resistive .. then again, aftermarket drop-in airfilter for prerestyle is relatively cheap and most probably also will be in mod list for those that tune their ecu, removing that difference too.

Yoshoobaroo 05-18-2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 (Post 3332114)
It’s more like 5 hp. And no. The 5hp gain is from new intake manifold, header and corresponding tune. Although primarily header/tune especially for peak hp. Which Your replacing both. So same end numbers just slightly different before numbers, with pre 17s benefiting 5hp more.


It’s more in the 10-15 hp range. 2017 dynos show a bigger difference than the spec sheets suggests:

EDIT: No it isn't! Thanks @86TOYO2k17 for clearing that up!

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=2775136

86TOYO2k17 05-18-2020 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo (Post 3332205)
Itís more in the 10-15 hp range. 2017 dynos show a bigger difference than the spec sheets suggests:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=2775136

see post #30 in that thread.
+5whp which is whats to be expected as its advertised as making 5 more hp from the changes made to post 17s.

also another good comparison here, same day, same dyno, same gas. less than a 5hp difference. scroll down to 2013 MY vs. 2017 MY
https://www.pointmeby.com/2017/10/18...esults-15-86s/


The few cherry picked ones showing 10-15whp probably had the dyno set to 4.1 FD instead of 4.3FD for the 17+ artificially showing higher number. Or where done with different correction factors, temps, humidity etc... on different days or comparing a new fresh low mileage 17+ to a pre 17 with high mileage or a heavily beaten on track car that's losing compression etc... making it look lower. or the 17 had 93 and the pre 17 had bad gas or 91.

There is no reason the drive train loss would be greater on a pre 17, and i highly doubt Toyota/Subaru is under selling the HP of post 17s by 10+hp.

JBezugs 05-18-2020 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3332030)
jealous about your digital dyno graph. haha mine is paper without any precise numbers.

did you ever drive yours installed with the stock tune? I drove it to the shop which was about 73 miles from my place. It felt quite strong already with the stock tune.

I got it installed at the shop that it was tuned at, so I never drove the JDL 4-2-1 on the stock tune. Main basis of comparison I had was stock header and tune vs. JDL and Dyno tune, and man, what a transformation.

JBezugs 05-18-2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 (Post 3332240)
see post #30 in that thread.
+5whp which is whats to be expected as its advertised as making 5 more hp from the changes made to post 17s.

also another good comparison here, same day, same dyno, same gas. less than a 5hp difference. scroll down to 2013 MY vs. 2017 MY
https://www.pointmeby.com/2017/10/18...esults-15-86s/


The few cherry picked ones showing 10-15whp probably had the dyno set to 4.1 FD instead of 4.3FD for the 17+ artificially showing higher number. Or where done with different correction factors, temps, humidity etc... on different days or comparing a new fresh low mileage 17+ to a pre 17 with high mileage or a heavily beaten on track car that's losing compression etc... making it look lower. or the 17 had 93 and the pre 17 had bad gas or 91.

There is no reason the drive train loss would be greater on a pre 17, and i highly doubt Toyota/Subaru is under selling the HP of post 17s by 10+hp.


The primary takeaway is that the header and factory tune was the main difference in power output between pre-and-post-facelift cars, albeit a minor one. There were other engine changes, but they were primarily related to strength and robustness. However, as soon as you change out the header and go with a custom tune, the gain between pre-and-post facelift cars is essential moot, because you've replaced those components.

An aftermarket header and quality tune is the equalizer if you will. You will see larger gains on pre-facelift cars due to the older header design and more conservative stock tune, but your final numbers between engines should be similar. Let's negate any minor gains in the post-facelift intake design which I don't think really makes a huge difference (for what its worth I'm running an OEM paper filter on my +17 but I'm sure with an aftermarket filter on an older car you'd be right there with me).

With that, basically, on the same dyno, on the same day, a 2013-2016 car with a custom tune and "Aftermarket Header A" should make very similar if not the same power as a 2017+ car with a custom tune and the same "Aftermarket Header A".

DarkSunrise 05-18-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaBRZ (Post 3332171)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

86TOYO2k17 05-18-2020 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBezugs (Post 3332372)
The primary takeaway is that the header and factory tune was the main difference in power output between pre-and-post-facelift cars, albeit a minor one. There were other engine changes, but they were primarily related to strength and robustness. However, as soon as you change out the header and go with a custom tune, the gain between pre-and-post facelift cars is essential moot, because you've replaced those components.

An aftermarket header and quality tune is the equalizer if you will. You will see larger gains on pre-facelift cars due to the older header design and more conservative stock tune, but your final numbers between engines should be similar. Let's negate any minor gains in the post-facelift intake design which I don't think really makes a huge difference (for what its worth I'm running an OEM paper filter on my +17 but I'm sure with an aftermarket filter on an older car you'd be right there with me).

With that, basically, on the same dyno, on the same day, a 2013-2016 car with a custom tune and "Aftermarket Header A" should make very similar if not the same power as a 2017+ car with a custom tune and the same "Aftermarket Header A".

Yup, you just restated my previous post.

RayRay88 05-18-2020 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 3332452)
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

The 4-2-1 was on E55 making 195, not E85. Will never know 100% without a dyno but i'd be willing to bet it could hit 205-210 pretty easily on E85 on that dyno.

DarkSunrise 05-18-2020 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayRay88 (Post 3332483)
The 4-2-1 was on E55 making 195, not E85. Will never know 100% without a dyno but i'd be willing to bet it could hit 205-210 pretty easily on E85 on that dyno.

Yeah you could be right. I saw that he was on E55. MBT on the FA20 is reached at ~E60, so he was ever so close on that tank. That probably explains some of the difference.

solidONE 05-19-2020 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaBRZ (Post 3332171)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.

solidONE 05-19-2020 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 3332452)
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

I wonder why the P-Tuning 4-1 doesnt do so well in the mid-range torque dip area. They even considered the firing order designing the pipes. It's the most well made header for this car on the market, I think, in terms of craftsmanship. Performance seems to fall a little short.

PandaBRZ 05-19-2020 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 3332731)
50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.


Absolutely. The car's behavior has changed massively and the 4-1 header really rewards winding the motor to redline. Some may want more torque down low but I love the high-revving nature of the FA20 so the 4-1 EL is perfect for my driving style.

solidONE 05-19-2020 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaBRZ (Post 3332736)
Absolutely. The car's behavior has changed massively and the 4-1 header really rewards winding the motor to redline. Some may want more torque down low but I love the high-revving nature of the FA20 so the 4-1 EL is perfect for my driving style.

nearly 160 ft lbs of torque from 3600rpm up is a lot of torque, relative to stock. Relative to most aftermarket setups, for that matter.

It's a beautiful torque curve. A very peppy one.

airrick 05-19-2020 06:22 PM

w

86TOYO2k17 05-19-2020 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3332839)
Generally 4-1 El headers are for power at the top and4-2-1 El headers are more for the mid range. 4-1 headers are for people that are actually rev their car to redline, which i dont do, alot. And i really wanted that torque dip to go away. And it has =):happyanim: most people want to look at the numbers only but best comparison is to drive them.

I think his E85 % content was higher when he tuned his car. mine was at only e55. I suspect his ethanol content was higher than mine.

Unless you have a 4-2-1 long tube header. Best of both worlds.

tomm.brz 05-19-2020 08:02 PM

el 4-1 still give more peak power and in generally they make the car come alive brutally after you pass 5.5k rpm

churchx 05-19-2020 08:20 PM

I'm still under impression that even on track midrange & total area under curve is more important for actual goal, to accelerate/drive faster, then higher peak number. Not just peak hp for very very narrow rpm range powerband you spend second in before upshifting. Hence good longtube 4-2-1 headers like that of Ace/JDL/Nameless seem preferable choice to 4-1 .. that actually also can be as effective theoretically, if they had similar long runners to optimize scavenging at mid-rpms, but in reality are not, due packaging reasons. It was hard to get long runners in 4-2-1 design like for Ace/Nameless .. now imagine to try to get 4 tubes as long as in those 4-2-1 .. pack not just 2 but 4 tubes before engine or where overpipe goes. Hence due limited clearance 4-1 is destined to be with short tubes, which means - optimized for very highest rpm range only, and imho that is relatively rare/specific usage case (eg. built NA engine with fixed oiling limitations and running with much higher redline) where it might be beneficial over midrange or overall gains across. Even on track. Even though it's not fault of 4-1 design itself, but simply that there is no space for long enough tubes of doubled count.
Of course in hypothetical ideal world we would have as much space under bonnet as more then half a century ago to alleviate clearance/design limitations and variable adjustable (or multipath selectable) intake and exhaust tube lengths for always to be at most optimal length (IIRC like it was done in some supercars). But otherwise it's not 4-2-1 vs 4-1, but "longtube 4-2-1" vs "short tube 4-1".

86TOYO2k17 05-19-2020 08:43 PM

JDL 4-2-1 isn’t a long tube header.

Nameless still has short 4-2 runners, it has long 2-1 runners before the merge for great mid range. But needs longer 4-2 runners for top end.

ACE has long 4-2 runners, the 4-2 runner length before the merge is as long or longer than the 4-1 EL runners. Allowing for good top end and then has the scavenging and efficiency of the 2-1 step down for mid range giving you best of both worlds. The later can be adjusted by the OP design 150/250/350 allowing more mid range or more top end by adjusting those lengths. But even the 350 has good top end because of the 4-2 length and the 150 has decent mid range because of the 4-2-1 design. In my personal opinion the ace 250 is the perfect no compromise header.

PulsarBeeerz 05-19-2020 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 3332731)
50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.

Believe it or not some people still think its all marketing the torque dip isnt a thing.

PulsarBeeerz 05-19-2020 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 3332452)
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.


Same dyno but different correction factors and loads on all printouts. If dynos aren't under the same test setup you can't compare a thing..

E85 JDL UEL


https://i.imgur.com/8otRCTe.jpg

DarkSunrise 05-20-2020 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by solidONE (Post 3332733)
I wonder why the P-Tuning 4-1 doesnt do so well in the mid-range torque dip area. They even considered the firing order designing the pipes. It's the most well made header for this car on the market, I think, in terms of craftsmanship. Performance seems to fall a little short.

Hmm... I wouldn't say the performance falls short, just heavily skewed towards the top-end where it is still arguably the best performing header on the market. PTuning stated one of their design goals was to minimize sweep in front of the engine to keep engine bay temps down, so they were probably limited on space for runner length (and possibly midrange power).

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3332839)
Generally 4-1 El headers are for power at the top and4-2-1 El headers are more for the mid range. 4-1 headers are for people that are actually rev their car to redline, which i dont do, alot. And i really wanted that torque dip to go away. And it has =):happyanim: most people want to look at the numbers only but best comparison is to drive them.

I think his E85 % content was higher when he tuned his car. mine was at only e55. I suspect his ethanol content was higher than mine.

Yeah it sounds like you picked the right header for your driving style. Glad you're happy with it setup - it looks like it'd be a lot of fun in everyday driving.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PulsarBeeerz (Post 3332924)
Same dyno but different correction factors and loads on all printouts. If dynos aren't under the same test setup you can't compare a thing..

E85 JDL UEL

I'm not a dyno expert, but OP's dyno run looked like it was using a standard 1.00 correction factor. I didn't see a correction factor listed on the @PandaBRZ dyno chart. Do you have some reason to believe it was using a large CF?

PulsarBeeerz 05-27-2020 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 3333001)
I'm not a dyno expert, but OP's dyno run looked like it was using a standard 1.00 correction factor. I didn't see a correction factor listed on the @PandaBRZ dyno chart. Do you have some reason to believe it was using a large CF?

Not larger just, different. The same dyno with SAE vs STD correction factor will give a different output. Also having a load off or on effects it as well.


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