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-   -   JDL 4-2-1 Header Dyno results! (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140374)

airrick 05-17-2020 06:33 PM

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PulsarBeeerz 05-17-2020 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331934)
I'm curious, does this 10hp advantage for the post facelift cars still show up on the dyno after adding header and tune?

It does not. They simply start with a higher baseline but less "gain" after tuning.

86TOYO2k17 05-17-2020 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike_ZN6 (Post 3331934)
I'm curious, does this 10hp advantage for the post facelift cars still show up on the dyno after adding header and tune?

Itís more like 5 hp. And no. The 5hp gain is from new intake manifold, header and corresponding tune. Although primarily header/tune especially for peak hp. Which Your replacing both. So same end numbers just slightly different before numbers, with pre 17s benefiting 5hp more.

PandaBRZ 05-18-2020 01:24 AM

JDL 4-1 dyno sheet for reference
 
1 Attachment(s)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

churchx 05-18-2020 01:24 AM

There is also a bit of MY2017 airfilter being less resistive .. then again, aftermarket drop-in airfilter for prerestyle is relatively cheap and most probably also will be in mod list for those that tune their ecu, removing that difference too.

Yoshoobaroo 05-18-2020 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 (Post 3332114)
It’s more like 5 hp. And no. The 5hp gain is from new intake manifold, header and corresponding tune. Although primarily header/tune especially for peak hp. Which Your replacing both. So same end numbers just slightly different before numbers, with pre 17s benefiting 5hp more.


It’s more in the 10-15 hp range. 2017 dynos show a bigger difference than the spec sheets suggests:

EDIT: No it isn't! Thanks @86TOYO2k17 for clearing that up!

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=2775136

86TOYO2k17 05-18-2020 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshoobaroo (Post 3332205)
Itís more in the 10-15 hp range. 2017 dynos show a bigger difference than the spec sheets suggests:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show....php?p=2775136

see post #30 in that thread.
+5whp which is whats to be expected as its advertised as making 5 more hp from the changes made to post 17s.

also another good comparison here, same day, same dyno, same gas. less than a 5hp difference. scroll down to 2013 MY vs. 2017 MY
https://www.pointmeby.com/2017/10/18...esults-15-86s/


The few cherry picked ones showing 10-15whp probably had the dyno set to 4.1 FD instead of 4.3FD for the 17+ artificially showing higher number. Or where done with different correction factors, temps, humidity etc... on different days or comparing a new fresh low mileage 17+ to a pre 17 with high mileage or a heavily beaten on track car that's losing compression etc... making it look lower. or the 17 had 93 and the pre 17 had bad gas or 91.

There is no reason the drive train loss would be greater on a pre 17, and i highly doubt Toyota/Subaru is under selling the HP of post 17s by 10+hp.

JBezugs 05-18-2020 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by airrick (Post 3332030)
jealous about your digital dyno graph. haha mine is paper without any precise numbers.

did you ever drive yours installed with the stock tune? I drove it to the shop which was about 73 miles from my place. It felt quite strong already with the stock tune.

I got it installed at the shop that it was tuned at, so I never drove the JDL 4-2-1 on the stock tune. Main basis of comparison I had was stock header and tune vs. JDL and Dyno tune, and man, what a transformation.

JBezugs 05-18-2020 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 86TOYO2k17 (Post 3332240)
see post #30 in that thread.
+5whp which is whats to be expected as its advertised as making 5 more hp from the changes made to post 17s.

also another good comparison here, same day, same dyno, same gas. less than a 5hp difference. scroll down to 2013 MY vs. 2017 MY
https://www.pointmeby.com/2017/10/18...esults-15-86s/


The few cherry picked ones showing 10-15whp probably had the dyno set to 4.1 FD instead of 4.3FD for the 17+ artificially showing higher number. Or where done with different correction factors, temps, humidity etc... on different days or comparing a new fresh low mileage 17+ to a pre 17 with high mileage or a heavily beaten on track car that's losing compression etc... making it look lower. or the 17 had 93 and the pre 17 had bad gas or 91.

There is no reason the drive train loss would be greater on a pre 17, and i highly doubt Toyota/Subaru is under selling the HP of post 17s by 10+hp.


The primary takeaway is that the header and factory tune was the main difference in power output between pre-and-post-facelift cars, albeit a minor one. There were other engine changes, but they were primarily related to strength and robustness. However, as soon as you change out the header and go with a custom tune, the gain between pre-and-post facelift cars is essential moot, because you've replaced those components.

An aftermarket header and quality tune is the equalizer if you will. You will see larger gains on pre-facelift cars due to the older header design and more conservative stock tune, but your final numbers between engines should be similar. Let's negate any minor gains in the post-facelift intake design which I don't think really makes a huge difference (for what its worth I'm running an OEM paper filter on my +17 but I'm sure with an aftermarket filter on an older car you'd be right there with me).

With that, basically, on the same dyno, on the same day, a 2013-2016 car with a custom tune and "Aftermarket Header A" should make very similar if not the same power as a 2017+ car with a custom tune and the same "Aftermarket Header A".

DarkSunrise 05-18-2020 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaBRZ (Post 3332171)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

86TOYO2k17 05-18-2020 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBezugs (Post 3332372)
The primary takeaway is that the header and factory tune was the main difference in power output between pre-and-post-facelift cars, albeit a minor one. There were other engine changes, but they were primarily related to strength and robustness. However, as soon as you change out the header and go with a custom tune, the gain between pre-and-post facelift cars is essential moot, because you've replaced those components.

An aftermarket header and quality tune is the equalizer if you will. You will see larger gains on pre-facelift cars due to the older header design and more conservative stock tune, but your final numbers between engines should be similar. Let's negate any minor gains in the post-facelift intake design which I don't think really makes a huge difference (for what its worth I'm running an OEM paper filter on my +17 but I'm sure with an aftermarket filter on an older car you'd be right there with me).

With that, basically, on the same dyno, on the same day, a 2013-2016 car with a custom tune and "Aftermarket Header A" should make very similar if not the same power as a 2017+ car with a custom tune and the same "Aftermarket Header A".

Yup, you just restated my previous post.

RayRay88 05-18-2020 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSunrise (Post 3332452)
It's interesting that with the same tuner (Zach) on the same dyno (Racer's Line) and both running E85:

- the JDL 4-1 EL header made 209 whp
- the JDL 4-2-1 EL header made 195 whp

The shape of the torque curves are pretty similar, but the 4-1 EL header seems to hold power higher in the RPM range.

The 4-2-1 was on E55 making 195, not E85. Will never know 100% without a dyno but i'd be willing to bet it could hit 205-210 pretty easily on E85 on that dyno.

DarkSunrise 05-18-2020 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayRay88 (Post 3332483)
The 4-2-1 was on E55 making 195, not E85. Will never know 100% without a dyno but i'd be willing to bet it could hit 205-210 pretty easily on E85 on that dyno.

Yeah you could be right. I saw that he was on E55. MBT on the FA20 is reached at ~E60, so he was ever so close on that tank. That probably explains some of the difference.

solidONE 05-19-2020 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PandaBRZ (Post 3332171)
This is after Zach tuned my car at The Racer's Line. JDL 4-1 EL header, stock front & mid pipes, Nameless axleback. Red = E85 tune. Blue = 91 tune. Green = stock.

50 ft lbs of torque gained at 3800.. Torque dip making exhaust and ECM recalibration vendors money since 2012.

Such a worthwhile mod.


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