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-   -   2020 86 Stock Amp Specs & Stereo Upgrade (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147176)

blueskiesgreenlights 10-12-2021 06:18 AM

2020 86 Stock Amp Specs & Stereo Upgrade
 
Hi,

I recently purchased a 2020 86 Hakone and love everything about the car with two exceptions. First, I'm disappointed with the sound system even after successfully completing FR-S2GT86's amp fix - thanks, by the way, for that outstanding DYI post.

Second, I'm the second owner and the previous owner installed a tolerably loud exhaust system. I assume that it adds a few horses and maybe even improves MPG but it is noisy enough for me to add a sound deadening project to my future tasks. I'm hoping an application of this stuff on the floorboard, doors, and rear wheel wells will allow me to hear the tweeters mentioned below.

This task will be added because I'm re-thinking the car's multimedia system. My immediate concern is the specs on the oem amp mounted in the trunk. Since I'm satisfied with the low end sounds of the door mounted subs I'm considering relocating them to replace the 3.5" speakers in the back seat. Of course, I'll have to cut the panels to accommodate the larger door speakers but as this will likely be my viking ship I'm not worried about resale value.

Since I don't know how the system will sound once it is completed I'm interested in the stock oem specs in the event I decide to replace the oem door speakers, use a spare wheel sub setup or some other space saving solution.

My theory is that the current setup lacks mid-range and the tweeters are weak. Therefore, I purchased a set of Sony XS 162es to address these issues. The Sony allows for a bi-amp setup and I'm inclined to go this route.

Since I'm satisfied with the HU I'm thinking about an Audio Control L7i or AC DQ-61 along with an after market amp. Any suggestions on this?

I know that the above subjects could easily be divided into several posts but in exchange for your tolerance I'll provide a follow up on this relatively low budget upgrade.

FR-S2GT86 10-12-2021 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3472610)
Hi,

I recently purchased a 2020 86 Hakone and love everything about the car with two exceptions. First, I'm disappointed with the sound system even after successfully completing FR-S2GT86's amp fix - thanks, by the way, for that outstanding DYI post.

Second, I'm the second owner and the previous owner installed a tolerably loud exhaust system. I assume that it adds a few horses and maybe even improves MPG but it is noisy enough for me to add a sound deadening project to my future tasks. I'm hoping an application of this stuff on the floorboard, doors, and rear wheel wells will allow me to hear the tweeters mentioned below.

This task will be added because I'm re-thinking the car's multimedia system. My immediate concern is the specs on the oem amp mounted in the trunk. Since I'm satisfied with the low end sounds of the door mounted subs I'm considering relocating them to replace the 3.5" speakers in the back seat. Of course, I'll have to cut the panels to accommodate the larger door speakers but as this will likely be my viking ship I'm not worried about resale value.

Since I don't know how the system will sound once it is completed I'm interested in the stock oem specs in the event I decide to replace the oem door speakers, use a spare wheel sub setup or some other space saving solution.

My theory is that the current setup lacks mid-range and the tweeters are weak. Therefore, I purchased a set of Sony XS 162es to address these issues. The Sony allows for a bi-amp setup and I'm inclined to go this route.

Since I'm satisfied with the HU I'm thinking about an Audio Control L7i or AC DQ-61 along with an after market amp. Any suggestions on this?

I know that the above subjects could easily be divided into several posts but in exchange for your tolerance I'll provide a follow up on this relatively low budget upgrade.


I added some information on the stock speakers in this thread here:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...?t=7843&page=5

Not sure if this was what you were looking for though.

And your welcome on the DIY. I spent quite a bit of time on that to get it just right as to require no further questions needing to be asked.

You say there is no midrange in your system, if I may ask: Are your dash midrange drivers in place and working?

soundman98 10-12-2021 08:19 PM

both of those audiocontrol units are well known, and will work. however, i would recommend another alternative.

minidsp is just as highly regarded as audiocontrol, and for a similar price, offers a dsp unit with significant adjustability that the audiocontrol modules don't have. personally, being able to adjust settings from the listening position instead of having to listen, run around, tweak, run back around, and re-listen, repeat, is worth the cost of entry alone. the phase adjustments also have proven to be useful in multi-driver setups as well.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/car...-dsp/c-dsp-6x8

personally, i use the dayton audio variation of dsp
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...-Audio-230-500

there's some questionability in audio circles of it not being 'as good' because it doesn't come from a lineage known for high end car-specific audio gear, and the brand leans towards the budget-oriented side of things instead of the 'no-holds-barred-gimme-your-kids-college-money' audio elitism that other brands pricing specifies for 'ultimate' sound quality.

but overall, it's a very powerful unit for $200-- getting the bluetooth dongle makes it extremely easy to tweak from any listening position, in any number of imaginable ways that one would or could ever need to adjust the system to their specific preferences.

before either option existed, i spent well into the $2-3k range on a fully custom car computer to do the same thing with 4 times the effort at every step, so a $200 device that does all of that, and more, is well worth it to me.

blueskiesgreenlights 10-13-2021 04:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3472758)
I added some information on the stock speakers in this thread here:

https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...?t=7843&page=5

Not sure if this was what you were looking for though.

And your welcome on the DIY. I spent quite a bit of time on that to get it just right as to require no further questions needing to be asked.

You say there is no midrange in your system, if I may ask: Are your dash midrange drivers in place and working?

Thanks for the info on the stock speakers in the thread. The dash midrange are in place but while they seem to perform on simple tracks (i.e., Joe Walsh's "Lifes Been Good' songs with multiple tracks don't fare as well).


There's not a lot of installers near me so this is a DIY job. Learning as fast as I can but in just the past 24 hrs I've ditched the plan to move the oem door woofers to the back. Presently, opting for an single after market amplifier that can drive a spare tire enclosed subwoofer.

blueskiesgreenlights 10-13-2021 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3472770)
both of those audiocontrol units are well known, and will work. however, i would recommend another alternative.

minidsp is just as highly regarded as audiocontrol, and for a similar price, offers a dsp unit with significant adjustability that the audiocontrol modules don't have. personally, being able to adjust settings from the listening position instead of having to listen, run around, tweak, run back around, and re-listen, repeat, is worth the cost of entry alone. the phase adjustments also have proven to be useful in multi-driver setups as well.

https://www.minidsp.com/products/car...-dsp/c-dsp-6x8

personally, i use the dayton audio variation of dsp
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayton...-Audio-230-500

there's some questionability in audio circles of it not being 'as good' because it doesn't come from a lineage known for high end car-specific audio gear, and the brand leans towards the budget-oriented side of things instead of the 'no-holds-barred-gimme-your-kids-college-money' audio elitism that other brands pricing specifies for 'ultimate' sound quality.

but overall, it's a very powerful unit for $200-- getting the bluetooth dongle makes it extremely easy to tweak from any listening position, in any number of imaginable ways that one would or could ever need to adjust the system to their specific preferences.

before either option existed, i spent well into the $2-3k range on a fully custom car computer to do the same thing with 4 times the effort at every step, so a $200 device that does all of that, and more, is well worth it to me.

I'm not familiar with minidsp but I will definitely learn about the company and products. My main interest in audiocontrol is that they market a line specifically for factory HU. Thanks.

FR-S2GT86 10-13-2021 11:08 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3472852)
Thanks for the info on the stock speakers in the thread. The dash midrange are in place but while they seem to perform on simple tracks (i.e., Joe Walsh's "Lifes Been Good' songs with multiple tracks don't fare as well).


There's not a lot of installers near me so this is a DIY job. Learning as fast as I can but in just the past 24 hrs I've ditched the plan to move the oem door woofers to the back. Presently, opting for an single after market amplifier that can drive a spare tire enclosed subwoofer.


Your plans will probably change a couple of times before you make your final decision, certainly mine did, but I agree with @soundman98 in that having a DSP that you don't have to continually run back and forth to make adjustments is a much better solution. DSP is a godsend to car audio nowadays. All of the equipment in my current setup is aftermarket, including my Pioneer DEX-P99RS head unit which has four-way active network capabilities and built in DSP that automatically sets itself up compensating as best it can for the listening environment. It just needs a bit of manual adjustment afterwards.

For highs, just yesterday I installed some Kicker pod-mount 3/4" tweeters mounting them to the dash speaker grills and have them bandpassed between 5kHz to 16kHz at 24db/octave on both ends. See here,
Attachment 206056

Attachment 206057

For mid-range, I have some Dayton Audio 3-1/2" drivers in the factory dash locations which are bandpassed between 2kHz and 5kHz at 24db/octave on both ends.

For mid-bass in the doors, I have some Dayton Audio 6-1/2" drivers bandpassed between 100Hz and 2kHz at 24db/octave on both ends.

My 12" first generation Orion, dual two-ohm voice coil HCCA subwoofer is mounted in a custom-built sealed enclosure handling the low frequencies bandpassed between 20 Hz and 100Hz at 24db/octave on both ends.

All of these components are amplified using Cerwin Vega Stealth Bomber amplifiers. The B54 four-channel amp is handling the tweeters and dash midrange drivers, the B52 two-channel amp is handling the door mid-bass drivers, and the B51 mono-block amplifier is handling the subwoofer.

I have left the rear speakers disconnected in this setup, as I really don't need them.

It sounds fantastic. I'm not going for SPL on this build, this is a sound quality build with Boom Mat in the inner and outer door skins for sound deadening.

Coming back to your situation, have you looked at Audio Control's amplifiers with their DSP built in? Here is their six-channel amplifier which may be of interest to you,

Attachment 206058

This will accept speaker-level inputs such as the ones from your head unit, which would substitute for the line output converter that you mentioned earlier, process the input, which would substitute for the digital EQ that you also mentioned earlier and give you much more control over the sound and would also add 125 watts per channel on six outputs, with a separate processed subwoofer line output. This would simplify your setup a great deal. You could amplify all of your front speakers and send the processed subwoofer signal to another amp for a subwoofer in the spare tire well, and you can set it all up with a laptop or phone app.

blueskiesgreenlights 10-14-2021 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3472875)
Your plans will probably change a couple of times before you make your final decision, certainly mine did, but I agree with @soundman98 in that having a DSP that you don't have to continually run back and forth to make adjustments is a much better solution. DSP is a godsend to car audio nowadays. All of the equipment in my current setup is aftermarket, including my Pioneer DEX-P99RS head unit which has four-way active network capabilities and built in DSP that automatically sets itself up compensating as best it can for the listening environment. It just needs a bit of manual adjustment afterwards.

For highs, just yesterday I installed some Kicker pod-mount 3/4" tweeters mounting them to the dash speaker grills and have them bandpassed between 5kHz to 16kHz at 24db/octave on both ends. See here,
Attachment 206056

Attachment 206057

For mid-range, I have some Dayton Audio 3-1/2" drivers in the factory dash locations which are bandpassed between 2kHz and 5kHz at 24db/octave on both ends.

For mid-bass in the doors, I have some Dayton Audio 6-1/2" drivers bandpassed between 100Hz and 2kHz at 24db/octave on both ends.

My 12" first generation Orion, dual two-ohm voice coil HCCA subwoofer is mounted in a custom-built sealed enclosure handling the low frequencies bandpassed between 20 Hz and 100Hz at 24db/octave on both ends.

All of these components are amplified using Cerwin Vega Stealth Bomber amplifiers. The B54 four-channel amp is handling the tweeters and dash midrange drivers, the B52 two-channel amp is handling the door mid-bass drivers, and the B51 mono-block amplifier is handling the subwoofer.

I have left the rear speakers disconnected in this setup, as I really don't need them.

It sounds fantastic. I'm not going for SPL on this build, this is a sound quality build with Boom Mat in the inner and outer door skins for sound deadening.

Coming back to your situation, have you looked at Audio Control's amplifiers with their DSP built in? Here is their six-channel amplifier which may be of interest to you,

Attachment 206058

This will accept speaker-level inputs such as the ones from your head unit, which would substitute for the line output converter that you mentioned earlier, process the input, which would substitute for the digital EQ that you also mentioned earlier and give you much more control over the sound and would also add 125 watts per channel on six outputs, with a separate processed subwoofer line output. This would simplify your setup a great deal. You could amplify all of your front speakers and send the processed subwoofer signal to another amp for a subwoofer in the spare tire well, and you can set it all up with a laptop or phone app.

Thanks, FR-S2GT86, you're the best! Just placed an order for the D-6.1200. Normally, I'd spend days researching something like this but given the knowledge you've shown in so many posts and the fact that prices are spiking along with scarcities, I made an executive decision and pulled the trigger. Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.

FR-S2GT86 10-14-2021 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3473054)
Thanks, FR-S2GT86, you're the best! Just placed an order for the D-6.1200. Normally, I'd spend days researching something like this but given the knowledge you've shown in so many posts and the fact that prices are spiking along with scarcities, I made an executive decision and pulled the trigger. Any and all suggestions are greatly appreciated.


I certainly don't claim to know it all, that would make me......well......a know-it-all, but I know enough to have been able to do this professionally for a few years and have done all my own installs and some for family members and a few friends over the years. I've always enjoyed helping others make their sound systems sound even better.

There's a lot to learn in this industry for sure. I would recommend heading over to the Audio Frog website

https://www.audiofrog.com/crossover-...re-protection/

where Andy Wehmeyer has several tech tips and articles on all sorts of audio related subjects.

My main suggestion with your amplifier purchase is to read everything that Audio Control supplies you and don't be afraid to contact their tech support if you feel the need. They also have product training videos out on YouTube.

And we'll be around if you have any questions.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-02-2021 06:56 PM

2020 86 Stereo Upgrade - Plan B
 
Problems: Stereo wiring color code, Power wire installation, Budget sub amp for AudioControl D-6.1200 amp ("AC")

System Components: AC; Sony XS 162es ("162"); Basser Box ("BB") with Rockford Fosgate R2SD4-10 ("FSW").

Plan B Changes: 3.5" or 4" coaxial speakers for back seat; Power line install underneath center consol; Add sub amp instead of bridge connection to D-6.1200; Stock amp to be removed from system although I'd welcome any ideas to repurpose it as a sub amp.

Observations and Discoveries:

1. The tweeters of the Sony XS 162es fit, with minor modification, in the dash (factory) woofer
mounting bracket. I plan to provide photos to ft86club forum members when Upgrade is completed.
2. The back seat mounting bracket can, with minor modification, accommodate 4" speakers (factory 3.5").
3. Service (or Shop) Manual and Wiring Diagram Information available via subscription only - $500/year.
4. While those experienced in electronics likely know this, others should be advised that this product https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...ZMM9KXDS&psc=1 is necessary to connect speaker wires to the AC.
5. My Hakone is louder than most. The original owner installed a performance muffler system which aggravates the car's noise level. The Toyota dealer says that the only way to correct this is to purchase a factory muffler system. I plan to get a second opinion. Any takers?

Anyway, regarding the noise level, since the Upgrade involves removal of the rear wheel well panels I plan to employ some Amazon Basics Auto Sound Deadening material over the wheel wells. This area appears to me to be a significant source of the road noise.

Per FR-S2GT86's suggestion, I purchased the AudioControl D-6.1200 amp. Also, alphasaur's video on the Basser Box encouraged me to acquire a Rockford Fosgate 10" subwoofer to go in the Basser Box. Thank you for these great tips!

As I plan the installation of a 7 speaker system (4 component speakers, 2 coaxial speakers, 1 subwoofer) to replace the factory 8 speaker system the first problem I've encountered has been getting information that I previously obtained from the Service Manual. Specifically, while I've viewed enough YouTube videos to feel fairly confident about how to remove the interior door panels the best information I've gotten so far on the 2020 86 audio system is that previous models wiring system are color coded as follows:

Wire colors:
Red = Battery + (always on) [PIN 1]
Black = Ground [PIN 2]

White = LF Speaker amplified out (black line means -) [PIN 1 and 5]
Grey = RF Speaker amplified out (black line means -) [ PIN 2 and 6]
Blue = remote turn on [PIN 8]
Green = Left speaker signal input from HU [PIN 3 and 9]
Purple = Right Speaker signal in from HU [PIN 4 and 10]

My objective is to learn of the color codes so that I can connect the Scosche TAO2B wires to the AC in such a way that allows me to control the speakers exactly like the current HU (factory) setup. Any ideas?

Second, I would like to route the 4 awg power wire down the center console (underneath the carpet). My current plan is to see if the carpet is lose enough to fish a coat hanger gauge wire from the trunk area (where the AC is located) to the dash underneath the carpet. Once the wire is available under the dash to secure the power wire and pull it to the AC. Has anyone had any experience doing this? If so, any tips or suggestions?

Third, while I was considering connecting the FSW to the AC in bridge mode I've since decided to purchase a 4 ohm sub amp for this connection. AudioControl offers the LC-1.800 for about $450. I checked out FR-S2GT86's suggestion of the Cerwin Vega B51. As I'm not really into heavy base, the AMZN price of $216 is still more than I'd like to pay at this point. As I am considerably overbudget on this project, any suggests for a more budget friendly sub amp that would work with AC?

Finally, I have to make a decision about the rear seat speakers. My inclination is to install a premium coaxial like Polk's DB401 but they are not available. Alternatively, if it's not too difficult to remove the back seat panels, I might just run wires to these locations, bridge the sub, and see how this sounds.

FR-S2GT86 11-02-2021 10:37 PM

@blueskiesgreenlights, you've got quite a lot to read in that post and respond to up there.

We'll simplify things and start slowly:

Choose two of your most important questions and I'll answer and elaborate if necessary on those, then we'll go from there.

soundman98 11-02-2021 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478165)
5. My Hakone is louder than most. The original owner installed a performance muffler system which aggravates the car's noise level. The Toyota dealer says that the only way to correct this is to purchase a factory muffler system. I plan to get a second opinion. Any takers?

could always watch for a used muffler to become available. but plan to replace the bolts and donut gasket.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478165)
Wire colors:
Red = Battery + (always on) [PIN 1]
Black = Ground [PIN 2]

White = LF Speaker amplified out (black line means -) [PIN 1 and 5]
Grey = RF Speaker amplified out (black line means -) [ PIN 2 and 6]
Blue = remote turn on [PIN 8]
Green = Left speaker signal input from HU [PIN 3 and 9]
Purple = Right Speaker signal in from HU [PIN 4 and 10]

My objective is to learn of the color codes so that I can connect the Scosche TAO2B wires to the AC in such a way that allows me to control the speakers exactly like the current HU (factory) setup. Any ideas?

i can't remember which wiring harness brand does what, but 1 lists the wiring function and color code on the package, and one labels the function onto the wires themselves.

but all of the aftermarket harness companies all sell stuff using the same color code--which will differ from the factory wiring color code. but as long as you're using the add-on harness(and one should always use one!), all that really matters is the label/color of the aftermarket harness.

toyota especially, hasn't really changed their audio connectors since about 1985. so they're well documented, and well sorted in the aftermarket harnesses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478165)
Second, I would like to route the 4 awg power wire down the center console (underneath the carpet). My current plan is to see if the carpet is lose enough to fish a coat hanger gauge wire from the trunk area (where the AC is located) to the dash underneath the carpet. Once the wire is available under the dash to secure the power wire and pull it to the AC. Has anyone had any experience doing this? If so, any tips or suggestions?

it should actually be easier to route it down and under the passenger-side plastic door sill covers. then take out the bolts and remove the back seat bottom cushion, and using the coat hanger method, fish it up and through the underside of the side-panel plastic trim, into the trunk area.


Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478165)
Third, while I was considering connecting the FSW to the AC in bridge mode I've since decided to purchase a 4 ohm sub amp for this connection. AudioControl offers the LC-1.800 for about $450. I checked out FR-S2GT86's suggestion of the Cerwin Vega B51. As I'm not really into heavy base, the AMZN price of $216 is still more than I'd like to pay at this point. As I am considerably overbudget on this project, any suggests for a more budget friendly sub amp that would work with AC?

considering that you already have the LC D-6.1200, i would recommend continuing on the path you're currently on-- using the the sub output for the sub. but some clarification is needed-- are you planning to bi-amp the sony drivers, or just run them off the front amp channel, with the passive crossovers doing the heavy lifting?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478165)
Finally, I have to make a decision about the rear seat speakers. My inclination is to install a premium coaxial like Polk's DB401 but they are not available. Alternatively, if it's not too difficult to remove the back seat panels, I might just run wires to these locations, bridge the sub, and see how this sounds.

those panels are a pain to remove. i would suggest coiling up the wire under the rear seat bottoms, as they'll need to be removed to pull the side panels anyways if you decide they're needed later.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-03-2021 09:48 PM

Yes, I'm a bit overwhelmed by all I have to learn. Although I had hoped to get this done right a way I'm finding that, like anything else, there is a learning curve and this one might take a little time.


My immediate concern is to find a set of 3.5" or 4" coaxial speakers for the back seat as well as a sub amp for about $100 each. I don't have an enclosed garage so I might end up spending the winter making my way along the learning curve. I'd much prefer to get it done quickly and well. We'll see.


It occurred to me that the center console might provide an easy "tunnel" to the front dash. So I'll mark this problem as solved until proven otherwise.


AudioControl checked in by pointing out that the HU keys off the factory amp so the white/grey wires should be prioritized over the green/purple wires. According to AudioControl support, failure to use the white/grey wires could result in the HU volume control not working. See below reply to soundman98 for full details.


I plan to search the web tonight for a set of 4" coaxials that will neither break the bank nor the outstanding sound I expect from the Sony es speakers. I'll do the same for a sub amp so I'll mark this as question one.


1. Is it possible to buy a sub amp for about $100 that would work well with an AudioControl D-6.1200 amp and, if so, what is it?


2. Is it possible to retain the surround sound offered by the factory stereo by installing either 3.5" or 4" coaxials that will uphold the high standard set by the Sony XS 162es component speakers?

blueskiesgreenlights 11-03-2021 10:19 PM

Many thanks, soundman98!


I'll try to find out who switched out the muffler in the first place and suggest that they offer my performance muffler to a prospective customer.


You're right. Scosche lists the audio wire color code that conforms to the E.I A. standard. I had to dig up the Scosche bag from FR-S2GT86's recent DIY project and I can confirm that Scosche provides this info on the back side of the packaging bag. Hopefully, I would have discovered this once the part is delivered in a couple of days but it eases my mind to have it.


I had originally planned to route it under the passenger side door sill covers but my understanding is that a power line located next to a speaker wire will cause sound issues. If I can't easily route the power line under the center console, would it be OK to, say, route the power line along the passenger side floor and separate the two by running the speaker wire a few inches higher?


I was considering using a passive crossover in lieu of the bi-amp crossover that Sony provides but I couldn't get the FS value of the tweeters from Sony that would allow me to calculate and acquire the correct sized capacitor for the tweeters. Also, as this is pushing the edge of my confidence I decided to bi-amp the Sony components.


If those panels are indeed a pain to remove this supports my preference of getting this project done once and for all.

soundman98 11-04-2021 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478512)
My immediate concern is to find a set of 3.5" or 4" coaxial speakers for the back seat as well as a sub amp for about $100 each. I don't have an enclosed garage so I might end up spending the winter making my way along the learning curve. I'd much prefer to get it done quickly and well. We'll see.

firstly, i would recommend considering shifting the install to the springtime with the in-between time used to better understand the materials and components you'll be using.

my installs, i generally tend to take at least 2 relaxed days to install everything. first day is gutting the interior and major wiring with some component install. 2nd day is finalizing component installs, and then testing.

but then my last install in my 'temporary' ranger took me about 2 weeks. but i was having fun with wire routing.
https://i.imgur.com/q43VQaC.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/uetBhKt.jpg

you might be able to find some used speakers for $100. but the amp, used would be your only possible, but unlikely option, and currently, there aren't any quality options in that price point on ebay. fyi-- you're going to want at least a 300w rms amp for sub duties. also critical, adding an amp will require increasing your power wiring size, as well as adding a power splitter, generally recommended to be a fused splitter. you'll also need double the grounding stuff as well. 2 amps make for 2 times the complexity.

it serves as a reminder here that any used equipment will inherently have an unknown history, lifespan, or quality, no matter the brand or it's implied quality. i don't like using used amps or speakers unless they're nearly free--or at least cheap enough that if it blows a week after setup, i won't cry over it. it's less of a building block of a 'i want this done in one go' type setup, and more a 'tinkerers paradise' type setup. my first setup, i had 4 different amps like that early on. i never paid more than $40 for any of them. but they were questionable quality at best. most car audio shops wouldn't even bother using them as door stops...



speakers are speakers are speakers. the emphasis on any specific coaxial being 'better' than another is really going to boil down to individual preference. the alpine type s, infinity kappa, or polk es, just to name a few, are all really built to the same quality, using similar components, with only slightly different acoustic signatures flavored to each brands specific identity, but are all largely the same. none of them 'flavor' their sound similar to what sony does, so there's going to be some difference no matter what.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478512)
It occurred to me that the center console might provide an easy "tunnel" to the front dash. So I'll mark this problem as solved until proven otherwise.

i have used this method in the past--back for my carpc build, when i had more wires than space. biggest hurdles are re-installation of the center console and rear seats, and keeping the carpet flat. it required cutting notches in the bottom of the center console, and using double-sided tape to hold the cables flat enough to correct the carpet bumps. but then, to do this, i removed the entire interior, so i could route wires underneath the carpet easier.

my current install with the amp under the passenger seat does in fact use the center console to route my custom rca interconnects down to just behind the front edge of the seat. because it falls within the seat/console area, notching the plastic and the carpet bulge is invisible.

https://live.staticflickr.com/3817/1...aa52f69c_k.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/3783/1...bc0d6d3e_k.jpg

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478512)
AudioControl checked in by pointing out that the HU keys off the factory amp so the white/grey wires should be prioritized over the green/purple wires. According to AudioControl support, failure to use the white/grey wires could result in the HU volume control not working. See below reply to soundman98 for full details.

i really don't understand this.. unless they're implying to use the white/gray for the turn-on signal as part of an auto-on setup? which is entirely unnecessary, as the blue amp turn-on wire is available in the factory harness, so auto-on is not needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478514)
I had originally planned to route it under the passenger side door sill covers but my understanding is that a power line located next to a speaker wire will cause sound issues. If I can't easily route the power line under the center console, would it be OK to, say, route the power line along the passenger side floor and separate the two by running the speaker wire a few inches higher?

yes, running parallel wires next to each other for long distances creates the opportunity for cross-talk. but this is true for any wiring, even multiple speaker cables. the reality is that there's only so much space available in the vehicle.

i would suggest routing the power cable through the door sill, and run the speaker wires through the center area. speaker cables are smaller, and will be easier to conceal.


Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478512)
I was considering using a passive crossover in lieu of the bi-amp crossover that Sony provides but I couldn't get the FS value of the tweeters from Sony that would allow me to calculate and acquire the correct sized capacitor for the tweeters. Also, as this is pushing the edge of my confidence I decided to bi-amp the Sony components.

fyi-- a capacitor-only crossover is only a 6db/octave crossover. any quality external crossover like those sony units are going to be at least 12db/oct., which is a capacitor and a coil. i wouldn't recommend running silk dome tweeters with anything less than a 12db/oct slope.

FR-S2GT86 11-04-2021 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478512)
Yes, I'm a bit overwhelmed by all I have to learn. Although I had hoped to get this done right a way I'm finding that, like anything else, there is a learning curve and this one might take a little time.


My immediate concern is to find a set of 3.5" or 4" coaxial speakers for the back seat as well as a sub amp for about $100 each. I don't have an enclosed garage so I might end up spending the winter making my way along the learning curve. I'd much prefer to get it done quickly and well. We'll see.


It occurred to me that the center console might provide an easy "tunnel" to the front dash. So I'll mark this problem as solved until proven otherwise.


AudioControl checked in by pointing out that the HU keys off the factory amp so the white/grey wires should be prioritized over the green/purple wires. According to AudioControl support, failure to use the white/grey wires could result in the HU volume control not working. See below reply to soundman98 for full details.


I plan to search the web tonight for a set of 4" coaxials that will neither break the bank nor the outstanding sound I expect from the Sony es speakers. I'll do the same for a sub amp so I'll mark this as question one.


1. Is it possible to buy a sub amp for about $100 that would work well with an AudioControl D-6.1200 amp and, if so, what is it?


2. Is it possible to retain the surround sound offered by the factory stereo by installing either 3.5" or 4" coaxials that will uphold the high standard set by the Sony XS 162es component speakers?


Answer #1) check out Williston Audio Labs YouTube channel here:

https://m.youtube.com/c/bigdwiz/videos

Big D's main topic is amplifier dynos and he usually shows you the purchase price of the amp that he's testing. He's done A LOT of them, so be prepared to spend some time watching.

Right off the top of my head though, I can't think of an amp for $100 that will compliment the Audio Control amp that you've already got. You would probably need between 300 to 500 watts RMS of subwoofer power to match your other speakers.

Answer #2) There are so many speaker manufacturers out there, I'm sure you should be able to find a coaxial that will work in the rear. However, I would suggest not purchasing a coaxial but rather a midrange-only driver. Let your front Sony separates create your front stage and let the rears be your rear fill. The front speakers are the most important. Here's a suggestion, amplify the stock rear speakers for the time being, get them time aligned and equalized through the Audio Control DSP amp, THEN if you don't like how it sounds, or if they can't keep up with your Sony's, find a replacement. I will end this answer with a question: When you go to a concert, do you stand and listen with your back to the band?

blueskiesgreenlights 11-04-2021 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3478545)
firstly, i would recommend considering shifting the install to the springtime with the in-between time used to better understand the materials and components you'll be using.


This will likely be what I end up doing. So far, I've fabricated a mount for the D-12.000, confirmed that the Basser box fits and can be secured as alphasaur instructed.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-04-2021 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3478545)
also critical, adding an amp will require increasing your power wiring size, as well as adding a power splitter, generally recommended to be a fused splitter. you'll also need double the grounding stuff as well. 2 amps make for 2 times the complexity.


I purchased an installer kit that has a 4 awg power line. I was planning on powering the sub amp by serially linking it to the amp at the trunk. Is a 4 awg wire sufficient for this? If not, what size power wire would be appropriate?


I wasn't aware of power splitters. I'll look for one with a fuse.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-04-2021 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soundman98 (Post 3478545)
my current install with the amp under the passenger seat does in fact use the center console to route my custom rca interconnects down to just behind the front edge of the seat. because it falls within the seat/console area, notching the plastic and the carpet bulge is invisible.

i would suggest routing the power cable through the door sill, and run the speaker wires through the center area. speaker cables are smaller, and will be easier to conceal.


This is a great idea. I'll plan to to secure the sub amp under the passenger's seat and route the right and left speakers down the center console.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-04-2021 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FR-S2GT86 (Post 3478546)
Right off the top of my head though, I can't think of an amp for $100 that will compliment the Audio Control amp that you've already got. You would probably need between 300 to 500 watts RMS of subwoofer power to match your other speakers.

Answer #2) There are so many speaker manufacturers out there, I'm sure you should be able to find a coaxial that will work in the rear. However, I would suggest not purchasing a coaxial but rather a midrange-only driver. Let your front Sony separates create your front stage and let the rears be your rear fill. The front speakers are the most important. Here's a suggestion, amplify the stock rear speakers for the time being, get them time aligned and equalized through the Audio Control DSP amp, THEN if you don't like how it sounds, or if they can't keep up with your Sony's, find a replacement. I will end this answer with a question: When you go to a concert, do you stand and listen with your back to the band?


I had never heard of Big D. I will, indeed, spend some time watching his reviews. I noticed he posted one recently on the CT Sounds CT-400.1D. At $119 it looks promising.


I had considered a mid range component for the rear speakers. Perhaps I'll give the stock systems a listen in this role as you suggest Thanks!

FR-S2GT86 11-04-2021 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478815)
I had never heard of Big D. I will, indeed, spend some time watching his reviews. I noticed he posted one recently on the CT Sounds CT-400.1D. At $129 it looks promising.


I had considered a mid range component for the rear speakers. Perhaps I'll give the stock systems a listen in this role as you suggest Thanks!


You're very welcome. But I want to give you one more piece of advice:

When looking for power wire for your amplifier, use only oxygen-free copper. Stay FAR AWAY from any of that cheap, crappy, copper clad aluminum (CCA) wire. Here's a video about that:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bTXF4ZpcDXc

Realize that not only does aluminum carry less current than copper, it also heats up faster and begins to corrode within just a few months of installation (and sometimes weeks depending on the environment it's exposed to). So if your build requires 4 gauge copper, but you install 4 gauge copper clad aluminum instead, that aluminum wire will get hot and you can lose voltage through the wire itself and end up doing some serious damage to not only your amps, but potentially your car. We don't want to see one of our twins get destroyed in a fire due to an attempt by its owner to cheap out on amplifier power wire. Pay for the good stuff now, you'll thank me later.

soundman98 11-04-2021 11:02 PM

^very good call on watching out on CCA. it's crap.

i mostly use knukonceptz wiring, specifically, the 'Kolossus Fleks', as it's one of the few that walks that fine line between being good quality, and cheaper due to a lack of overzealous marketing wank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3478751)
I purchased an installer kit that has a 4 awg power line. I was planning on powering the sub amp by serially linking it to the amp at the trunk. Is a 4 awg wire sufficient for this? If not, what size power wire would be appropriate?


I wasn't aware of power splitters. I'll look for one with a fuse.

wire size is going to be entirely dependent on the sum of the power of the amplifiers used.

use this handy-dandy chart as a guideline. but if in doubt, run bigger.

https://hosting.photobucket.com/albu...ingdiagram.jpg

blueskiesgreenlights 11-21-2021 12:48 AM

Speaker Input
 
I'm having a problem with speaker input. The source of the problem is that the speaker wiring system of the 2020 Toyota 86 is not compliant with the E.I.A (Electronics Industry Association) as presented on the back of the Scosche packaging.



Questions: Is it possible to use a Scosche TA02B harness and connect it to the original factory plug that was providing speaker input to the original factory amp? If so, how do I configure the TA02B harness?



I attempted to do this and the result was that the Green and Violet wires are on a separate 4 pin TA02B plug. Consequently, I decided to follow FR-S2GT86 advice and use the wires attached to the head unit to provide speaker input for the AudioControl d-6.1200. The problem I ran into here was that there was no Green wire which according to E.I.A. is used for the left rear speaker.


An inspection of the left rear speaker shows a Violet and a Blue wire attached to the left rear speaker. This concerns me because the Blue wire is for the remote amp turn on.



I successfully completed FR-S2GT86's "Magnuson-Moss" Version.
My recollection is that this allowed for the factory amp to power the door speakers. So that is the current state of the head unit.


The Good News is that a 0/1 awg power cable has been acquired. The AudioControl amp, a sub amp, the Sony speaker crossovers, external fuses, and a power block have been mounted to secure shelf in the trunk. A Rockford Fosgate sub has been installed in a Basser Box in the right trunk cavity. The Sony XS 162ES speaker system has been successfully installed. I'm confident that the speaker output is configured correctly. The only holdups now are the above speaker input issue and the delivery of 0/1 ring terminals.


I'm considering a D.I.Y. post of this project for non-professionals interested in upgrading the 86 multi media system. Of course, this will depend on a successful completion of this endeavor.



Any help on this speaker input issue would be greatly appreciated.

soundman98 11-21-2021 11:14 AM

to my knowledge, no vehicle-side wiring from any mfg is EIA compliant.

that's part of the reason to use the adapter harness with a standardized color code and labels(when installing an aftermarket stereo, the aftermarket stereo colors will line up), though the best reason is to maintain the oem plugs to allow easy conversions/adaptations later, and use the adapter as a sacrificial wire loom--it's cheap and easy to aquire should something need to be changed later.

yes, as per previous outlines, the toyota speaker adapter harness will connect into the amp harness. but the significant difference is that the 'front speaker' terminals serve as the 'input from radio', and the 'rear speaker' terminals serve as the 'output to door speakers'

forewarning, there's no way to maintain front/rear fader capability using this method.

blueskiesgreenlights 11-23-2021 03:17 PM

Final Phase - Speaker Input
 
So I plan to use the Magnuson-Moss version ("MM") as a source for speaker input wires (and amp turn on) to the AudioControl ("AC") d-6.1200. The MM will serve as the "sacrificial wire loom" and I'll make the connection at the head unit ("HU") with Positap connectors.


I plan to use these RCA "lollypop" connectors at the AC. My objective in using these connectors is to retain the HU phase control.


Before starting the AC for the first time, I'll use the AC usb cord to update the AC firmware.


I did invest in 0/1 Kolossus Fleks awg wire to the power block in the trunk at which point 4 awg wire is used to power the AC and sub amp. I did "cheap out" with the sub amp going with the Blaupunkt 1500W 1-Channel, Monoblock Amp for $55.



Does the plan to use the MM as a source for speaker input seem reasonable? Thanks in advance.






soundman98 11-23-2021 10:38 PM

the d-6.1200 has rca low-level inputs only, so those rca converters won't work. you need to connect the speaker level wires to the 'line level' plugs just to the right of the 'line level' inputs.

blueskiesgreenlights 12-02-2021 06:01 PM

Installation Complete but Sound Issue
 
Per Soundman98's suggestion, I ditched the RCA converters and tapped into the HU wires for connection to the AudioControl D-6.1200's ("AC") speaker level inputs.

The problem is that I am not getting any sound from the Right and Left front speakers (Sony tweeters in the dash and Sony woofers in the doors). I used the Magnuson-Moss ("MM") white and gray wires (and line for negatives) as tap in points to connect to the AC speaker level inputs.

Both the AC and subwoofer amp power on. The only sound is low volume from the left and right rear speakers. These speakers were id'd using the Ohm setting on a digital multi-meter.


Can the MM serve as speaker level out of HU or is the sound issue elsewhere?

blueskiesgreenlights 12-03-2021 10:03 PM

Installation Complete
 
To answer my own question, yes, the MM can be used to access speaker level output for the left and right front speakers. For the 2020 86s AC LGD dongles, discussed below, are necessary.


As I stated earlier, the rear speakers are a little more difficult to access as they require one to use a digital multi meter to identify wires from the rear speakers to the head unit. These wires appear as different colors from rear speakers to HU (perhaps they merge with other wires).



AudioControl ("AC") tech support was very helpful in resolving the sound problem. They advised that I reposition the front speaker input from that outlined in the AC instruction booklet. This and by remotely operating the AC windows software (which was connected to the d-6.1200 via usb cable) the device was configured in such a way as to allow sound from all speakers.


Importantly, AC advised that many late model cars have stereo systems which somehow prevent a full level sound signal to be sent to non-factory speakers. AC is sending a set of LGD dongles designed to correct this problem.


If there is an interest, I'd be glad to post a DIY guide. Once the LGD dongles have arrived and the sound is impressive as I expect it to be I'd be willing to do so.



Now, if I can just get the reverse camera to display on the primary screen instead of the rear view mirror. I haven't yet found this listed on the DIY wish list though I suspect it is there.



I'd like to express my gratitude to Soundman98. Thank you for your patient guidance.

Also, FR-S2GT86 and Laura at AC - your contributions to this effort have been invaluable.

Autoxer62 12-04-2021 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueskiesgreenlights (Post 3486454)
Now, if I can just get the reverse camera to display on the primary screen instead of the rear view mirror. I haven't yet found this listed on the DIY wish list though I suspect it is there.

It's sure on my wish list. I expect in the spring I'll get around to the stereo work (currently on jackstands for more suspension mods). Is there a wish list post I missed?

blueskiesgreenlights 12-06-2021 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Autoxer62 (Post 3486635)
Is there a wish list post I missed?


I couldn't find one so I posted one here
https://www.ft86club.com/forums/show...t=6873&page=18

blueskiesgreenlights 12-11-2021 04:56 AM

Speaker Input Problem Redux
 
As stated above, I expected the AudioControl LGD to resolve the HU to AC amp issue. However, after installing first the blue AC LGD (100w) and then green AC LGD (50w) neither seemed to solve the problem.


The only sounds I can get are from the STOCK factory speakers I left in the back seat area. Using AC software I can link this source and send it to the front tweeters and woofers. This arrangement limits the flexibility and tuning of the front speakers. Also, importantly, it offers no low end frequencies for the subwoofer.


These blue LGD were first introduced in 2005 primarily for american brands. Subsequently a green version was produced as the condition spread and more recently a gray version. I don't know why the manufacturers are introducing these obstacles.



The net effect is the extensive manipulation of the sound frequency available with AC's software is handicapped and there is no sound for the subwoofer. As an aside, I used the MM as a "sacraficial wire loom" to tap into the speaker input. I went directly into the HU factory wires to power the stock, factory speakers.


AC tech support is looking into this but so far no solution. Any suggestions?

soundman98 12-11-2021 02:27 PM

i know it ruins your intentions, but might need to swap the factory radio for an aftermarket one.

but ought to be able to re-use all the factory harnesses for it...

blueskiesgreenlights 12-11-2021 06:37 PM

While I appreciate soundman98's well intentioned reply, I find it hard to believe that an industry as technologically advanced as auto audio electronics cannot solve a seemingly simple problem.

AudioControl's main selling point - and the reason I was willing to pay a premium price for their product - is that their aftermarket products negate the necessity to replace the well integrated features of modern cars. It may well turn out that my options are either to reinstall the OEM factory speakers, amp, etc or to purchase a HU that will work with the aftermarket accessories I've purchased (and spent an inordinate amount of time learning how to install them correctly).

In the latter option, if something as simple as a non factory speaker can cause such problems to a high end sound system is there any reason to believe that similar issues would not arise from trying to integrate an aftermarket HU into the many features of modern steering wheels, phones, etc.?

Pardon my frustration but I think it is well founded. I find it hard to believe that this problem can't be solved.

soundman98 12-11-2021 08:43 PM

[rant]i've held off a little because at first it sounds like a "tech support explaining 'obviously technologically complex things' in a 'simple manner' so they can move on to the next simpleminded idiot" thing.

personally, i'm extremely surprised that this thread is the first time i've heard of factory radio's not working with aftermarket gear. i know there's a few vehicles that use canbus, or optical audio connections with specialized protocols, but have never heard of analog systems with this problem before. i honestly think it's something to do with the way audiocontrol integrates/expects the signal to work, but i'm not familiar enough with audiocontrol gear to have any confidence in that. which is why i never said anything before.

with this vehicle, i know there's been plenty of people that have replaced the factory speakers with aftermarket, as well as a number of people that simply added a sub in the trunk with variations of the same method you've used(usually with some more wiring destruction, but connecting to the same wires). never have they presented these issues.

[/rant]

firstly, have you tried the amp without the LGD? i'm not entirely convinced that they're required. i believe the factory door speaker amp is class D, but i suspect that the radio output itself is more of a standard class a/b.

but what i dislike the most about these modules is that audiocontrol appears to be the only company selling anything like it, not even alibaba resellers have them. you can't tell me that one single company somehow knows something the entire car audio industry and chinese reproduction electronics industry doesn't. i'm not denying that they might have a positive effect, but this module screams money-grab, just the same as those $60 wooden blocks in high end stereo magazines to "lift speaker cables off the floor and reduce resonance"...

second, something that could be tried for minimal extra cost is to use a Line Output Converter(LOC). this one's $10, could probably find one locally for under $30 at any audio shop, they commonly stock them for the 'add subs' crowd.
https://www.amazon.com/PAC-SNI-35-Va.../dp/B001EAWS3W

a LOC is what would be considered the more 'antique' option to connecting an amp to a factory system. the reasoning here is that it would change the factory wiring 'speaker-level' signal to the more aftermarket-industry-standard of low level RCA jack type signal. it also removes the line level conversion to a different, potentially more adjustable/expendable external module that can more easily be tested/diagnosed.

the benefit to this method is that any aftermarket amp would then work. it does defeat the purpose of the specialty audiocontrol amp(same as installing an aftermarket head unit), but then allows one to test and verify the entire system to extremely well-established methods. literally any youtube video on 'connecting/setting up an amp' will then apply, and you can forego any of the specialty audiocontrol stuff in setup and wiring.

i believe audiocontrol, and other more competition-level ears would argue that the 'cheap LOC' method could introduce some noise, or distort the signal that could prevent getting the most out of the amp/system(keep in mind that this mindset will be specifically geared towards winning 1st place at audio competition events, in a stationary vehicle, using test equipment), but at this point, anything working is better than nothing working. noise can be mitigated with different gear if the result proves successful in making things work. LOC's have been on the market since the market began.

but first, try it without the voodoo LGD's.

thomasmryan 12-12-2021 10:52 AM

1 Attachment(s)
This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.

soundman98 12-12-2021 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomasmryan (Post 3488246)
This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.

but it's not really a solution when you feed it into the factory sound system, if the factory sound system was the initial problem.

it's like changing the wheels, but keeping the tires, and then bragging about increased grip and braking capability.

blueskiesgreenlights 12-12-2021 08:48 PM

Pulled the HU out today to re-check the wiring. No problem here.


The LGDs were employed as a solution to the problem. In other words, the absence of front speaker input is the same with or without LGDs.


When the LGDs failed to work I put in a call to Audio Control tech support. Perhaps they'll have a solution. If so, I'll post it to provide the info to all.

blueskiesgreenlights 12-12-2021 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomasmryan (Post 3488246)
This was/is my solution. A better DAC to use in all the cars.


I had considered an external DAC before I began the stereo upgrade project. I'd noticed that music sounded slightly better coming from a USB drive than my phone. Some phones have chips embedded to process music while others (like mine) don't. Nevertheless, I reasoned that a system upgrade would improve all sound.


One of the reasons I abandoned this inquiry was that I had difficulty getting info confirming that this would improve. What is the brand and model of your DAC?

soundman98 12-12-2021 10:18 PM

have you tried running an 3.5mm-to-rca cable to the amp, and then using your phone/mp3 player as a source?

it would require some software alterations to your setup temporarily, but would at least confirm that you're working with a functional amp, and the aftermarket speakers are connected properly. at this point, no audio could actually mean you've got a DOA amp.

looking over the amp manual, there's some diagnostic led's listed on page 4-- under the top cover. was part of audiocontrols back-n-forth verifying that these led's are lighting up in the correct sequence with no errors?



you could also try connecting the amp audio input from the head unit to your new door speaker wiring with no risk of damage to the speakers-- just wire nut them together. if all those connections to the amp are correct, the speakers will work, just at the lower oem power level, with no dsp control of course.


if you were anywhere near chicago, i'd be willing to take a weekend trip to look the setup over, and even bring some other gear to check other connections/test alternatives.

blueskiesgreenlights 12-13-2021 03:41 AM

I checked the diagnostic leds and all were blue (no problem).


I'll purchase a 3.5mm-to-rca cable and test.


That's very generous of you to offer to check connections/test alternatives. Unfortunately, I'm not anywhere close to Chicago. Thank you just the same!



I'm determined to fix the problem. Option one, mentioned earlier, was not a serious consideration.

thomasmryan 12-13-2021 07:23 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I use this Oppo headphone amp/dac on the computer with foobar2000. You kinda have to jump though some hoops to snag 24/96 files off a Blueray but doable. DVDs are easy but to do SACD discs, you have to have an Oppo 105.


Periapt makes really good cables for a reasonable price.



The LG V60 has similar hardware if you scroll down and look at the specs.
https://www.androidauthority.com/lg-quad-dac-1115577/


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