Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB

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-   -   S2000 vs. FR-S BRZ Track Review Video | Part 2 of 2 (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74378)

Dezoris 09-17-2014 09:36 PM

S2000 vs. FR-S BRZ Track Review Video | Part 2 of 2
 
S2000 vs 86 Platform Complete | Track Review | VIDEO

We complete the street and track testing comparing the S2000 against a stock BRZ and Supercharged FRS. In part one we talk about the details of both cars, the history, practicality and much more.

Part two compares the supercharged FR-S on the track with identical wheel horsepower as the S2000 to help level the playing field.

2005 S2000 Stock:
POWER: 208HP 150lbsTq Dynojet (Wheel horsepower)
Tires: Hankook RS3 225/255
Brakes: Carbotech XP12 Pads
Oil: Redline 10w30
Alignment: -2.2F -1.5R Camber

2013 Scion FRS Supercharged:
Power: 212HP 181lbsTq Dynojet (Wheel Horsepower)
Tires: 235 Hankook RS3s
Brakes: AP Sprint Project Mu 999 Pads
Cooling: Liquid to Air Oil Cooler | Perrin Tune
Oil: Redline 10w30
Suspenion: Ohlins | -3.0F -2.0R Camber


PART 1

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwPW0iWYTNk"]S2000 vs FRS (GT86 BRZ) Full Review | Part 1 of 2 | S02E07 - YouTube[/ame]

S2000
0:00 - 0:52 Introduction Montage
0:52 - 2:32 The History and Chief Engineer Shigeru Uehara
2:32 - 6:07 Under the Skin with Turbowski
6:07 - 9:02 Getting Inside
9:02 - 11:22 Driving Impressions Analog vs Digital
11:23 - 11:43 Learning the Hard Way - RIP
11:45 - 12:17 S2000 Final Thoughts

GT86 - FR-S - BRZ and Supercharged FR-S
12:17 - 14:12 The 86 Platform History with Engineers Tada San
14:12 - 16:10 Interior Overview and Engineering
16:11 - 18:01 Driving the Stock BRZ, FR-S and GT86
18:01 - 19:57 Driving the Supercharged FR-S
20:00 - 20:45 Final Thoughts and Track Review Coming Soon
20:45 Outtakes


PART 2:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gluk3_otoUo"]S2000 vs FRS (GT86 BRZ) Track Review | Part 2 of 2 | S02E08 - YouTube[/ame]

0:00-1:22 Introduction
1:22-1:51 Disclaimer and Leveling Playing Field
1:52-2:36 Comparing Drivers
2:37-4:52 The FR-S Supercharged Laptime
4:53-5:28 The Mythical TRD/STI 86
5:28-6:36 The real values stock vs. stock
6:37-7:07 The initial results and switching drivers

7:08-10:17 Flat out the Track Comparison
10:17-11:11 The results and impressions
11:11-12:08 Conclusion Not a race car
11:00-12:24 Thoughts on the 86
12:24-14:09 The Winner
14:09-17:03 Outtakes
17:03-17:54 Credits

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https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v...Untitled-2.jpg

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https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-L...50-no/golf.jpg

Dezoris 09-17-2014 09:45 PM

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-H...-no/thanks.jpg

1future 09-17-2014 09:53 PM

Sweet, it's finally out. Been following your videos for a while now. Very informative and interesting to say the least. The bromance is strong in that last picture.

BRZnut 09-17-2014 10:04 PM

great video as always. Thanks for taking the time to do it!

civdaddy 09-17-2014 10:06 PM

Time to make some popcorn and enjoy this bad boy!

Lonewolf 09-17-2014 10:34 PM

I don't even need to watch to know which car op prefers...;)

Just get an s2000 already...

civdaddy 09-17-2014 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonewolf (Post 1951086)
I don't even need to watch to know which car op prefers...;)

Just get an s2000 already...

That s2000 is his...

CSG Mike 09-17-2014 11:25 PM

Video is too long. Will watch when I get home tonight.

CSG Mike 09-17-2014 11:34 PM

If I were driving, which car would have been faster? :D

thill 09-17-2014 11:34 PM

Really well done.. I love how honest you are about these cars (good and bad for both).

Look forward to the next installment.

thill 09-17-2014 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1951166)
If I were driving, which car would have been faster? :D

The golf cart :party0030:

R3NIK 09-17-2014 11:39 PM

Had an S2000, 350Z, and FR-S now. The S2000 is incredible, but for the price, I'll take the new, more practical car with a warranty. I doubt I'd ever buy a tank (350Z) again. It's hard to find a non-rodded/modded S2000 in good condition. Mine sure wasn't when I bought it. Overall I found the review biased but informative.

thill 09-17-2014 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R3NIK (Post 1951177)
Had an S2000, 350Z, and FR-S now. The S2000 is incredible, but for the price, I'll take the new, more practical car with a warranty. I doubt I'd ever buy a tank (350Z) again. It's hard to find a non-rodded/modded S2000 in good condition. Mine sure wasn't when I bought it. Overall I found the review biased but informative.

If you have to go forced induction on the FR-S to match the stock power of the S2K you lose much of the warranty advantage on the new car.

That said, I am with you on finding a clean S2K. I have been looking most of this year and they are few and far between. And many of them are well over $20K. But I agree with Dezoris and Turbowski that the S2K will hold its value much better long term.

Sideways&Smiling 09-18-2014 02:00 AM

Not trying to be nitpicky, but this comparison doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest. Why match hp figures and ignore all of the other differences? The FRS is lighter right off the bat, so that's going to give it a better power-to-weight ratio, and then you gave it light weight aftermarket wheels, coilovers, and a big brake kit versus a relatively stock S2000 (minus brake pads and tires). That's significant weight savings and a substantial handling improvement given to the FRS, while at the same time allowing it to have approximately 30lbs/ft more torque and a square tire setup, where as the S2000 is using the stock staggered setup, which will not turn in as well due to less front grip. Besides that, there seemed to be quite long stretches of straightaways, which obviously is going to benefit the car with a better power-to-weight and more torque. It seems like the outcome could have been easily predicted... and, realistically, it's not even close to an even comparison in terms of price or level of mods. *shrug*

DAEMANO 09-18-2014 02:24 AM

Dezoris' result reflects the reason why considering the inflation adjusted MSRPs when comparing the cars is so critical. Comparing a $18k-$25k Toyota w/mods to a purpose built $40k+ (inflation adjusted) Honda should reflect the Honda being built to a higher quality standard w/ greater resale value. Same thing would be reflected comparing an S2k to a Cayman. The Cayman would prove dynamically better, with greater resale value.


The real difference is that the FR-S was built to be daily driver friendly, and cheap enough to serve as an attainable platform to mod on. S2k was more narrowly focused and should be excellent dynamically. Remarkably, with not too much money, an '86 can achieve performance levels above a car that would cost well over $40k in today's dollars. For those that need a DD, you cant beat an '86. Like with most "it" cars that came before it, mechanical weaknesses will become known and addressed by both owners and the aftermarket. Overall, for those that need some utility with their fun, the '86 has proven to be a great value.

Mini Cooper S 09-18-2014 02:49 AM

I'd smoke you Dezoris with my stock FRS on Primacy tires. Any track any weather.

Skurge 09-18-2014 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thill (Post 1951185)
If you have to go forced induction on the FR-S to match the stock power of the S2K you lose much of the warranty advantage on the new car.

That said, I am with you on finding a clean S2K. I have been looking most of this year and they are few and far between. And many of them are well over $20K. But I agree with Dezoris and Turbowski that the S2K will hold its value much better long term.



a friend of mine is looking to get rid of his, 95K stock minus an intake and wheels, clean clean car, i know he doesn't want 20 for it


the gray one is the one up for sale(red is his fathers 25K showroom condition ugggghhhh)
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...17&oe=54CF6DB7

Sideways&Smiling 09-18-2014 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 1951361)
Dezoris' result reflects the reason why considering the inflation adjusted MSRPs when comparing the cars is so critical. Comparing a $18k-$25k Toyota w/mods to a purpose built $40k+ (inflation adjusted) Honda should reflect the Honda being built to a higher quality standard w/ greater resale value. Same thing would be reflected comparing an S2k to a Cayman. The Cayman would prove dynamically better, with greater resale value.


The real difference is that the FR-S was built to be daily driver friendly, and cheap enough to serve as an attainable platform to mod on. S2k was more narrowly focused and should be excellent dynamically. Remarkably, with not too much money, an '86 can achieve performance levels above a car that would cost well over $40k in today's dollars. For those that need a DD, you cant beat an '86. Like with most "it" cars that came before it, mechanical weaknesses will become known and addressed by both owners and the aftermarket. Overall, for those that need some utility with their fun, the '86 has proven to be a great value.

That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

DAEMANO 09-18-2014 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951889)
That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

Comparing new vs. used is generally a bad idea. Reliability can't be tossed out the window, or wear and tear on the cars' interior and exterior. Especially with a car that was designed as a daily driver and not a solely as a weekend plaything. People who want a new car rarely will choose something 7 yrs old (that wouldn't have a warranty either).

As far as mod costs go. I could build a supercharged/turbocharged FR-S with tires, brakes (not a BBK unnecessary), shocks/springs, and an oil cooler that comes well under $10k that would probably be equally as fast. $7.5k would probably be enough. Maybe $5.5-$6k if you're ok with used parts to match the used S2K.

The point isn't a "same money" dollar per/mod on both cars point. The FR-S is a DD that you can buy new and mod that performs, is practical, gets solid MPG, and looks good. Special note, none of the most common N/A power mods that actually make power would void a warranty in themselves if going in that direction first. The point is the S2K was originally built as a much more expensive purpose built product. So it's no surprise that it was constructed with better quality parts and is holding it's value well. Now let's do the same comparison S2k vs Cayman.

Dezoris 09-18-2014 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1future (Post 1951051)
Sweet, it's finally out. Been following your videos for a while now. Very informative and interesting to say the least. The bromance is strong in that last picture.

Thanks we were hugging after checking tire pressures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRZnut (Post 1951059)
great video as always. Thanks for taking the time to do it!

Always enjoy it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1951146)
Video is too long. Will watch when I get home tonight.

Most of it is crap at the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1951166)
If I were driving, which car would have been faster? :D

You'd probably be faster in both cars for sure.
I think we had another second to find in the S2000 namely on the main straight. And the FRS could have easily pulled another 1-2 seconds, as I only ran it one session. The S2000 I ran 4 sessions in trying to even get close to that FRS time and it never happened. FRS had much higher entry and exit speeds, much more balanced as you know, easy to push harder with less drama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951345)
Not trying to be nitpicky, but this comparison doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest. Why match hp figures and ignore all of the other differences? The FRS is lighter right off the bat, so that's going to give it a better power-to-weight ratio, and then you gave it light weight aftermarket wheels, coilovers, and a big brake kit versus a relatively stock S2000 (minus brake pads and tires). That's significant weight savings and a substantial handling improvement given to the FRS, while at the same time allowing it to have approximately 30lbs/ft more torque and a square tire setup, where as the S2000 is using the stock staggered setup, which will not turn in as well due to less front grip. Besides that, there seemed to be quite long stretches of straightaways, which obviously is going to benefit the car with a better power-to-weight and more torque. It seems like the outcome could have been easily predicted... and, realistically, it's not even close to an even comparison in terms of price or level of mods. *shrug*

They are within 75lbs of each other last time we weighed the cars. And yes it's true the FRS has the spec advantage which is what we wanted to show, how much does adding 10k to the FRS achieve against a stock S2000 with similar HP levels and real tires.

Is it fair, no but thats what makes some of this more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951889)
That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

I cut it out of the video but, the 86 will be the car of the century when you can find a lower mileage one for 15k. It has a lot of potential. But at 25k. Nah. S2000 every time.

8 years ago I was in a Comptech SC S2000 on the track and that car has potential too. But where we were going here was the S2000 does not need much of anything to be a great car. The 86 needs a whole host of things to get there.

Dezoris 09-18-2014 03:02 PM

UPDATE:

I wanted to answer this one as I got several private hate messages about bias and trashing the FRS.

Regardless if people think this was biased or not. I did buy both cars and am still investing in the 86, not just in time but also financially. It's a great platform for all of this.

axelo 09-18-2014 03:38 PM

Don't worry about haters, there will always be hating no matter what you do brother. Keep up the mods and the vids.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

thill 09-18-2014 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1952000)
UPDATE:

I wanted to answer this one as I got several private hate messages about bias and trashing the FRS.

Regardless if people think this was biased or not. I did buy both cars and am still investing in the 86, not just in time but also financially. It's a great platform for all of this.

I have watched I think all your videos. IMHO people read way too much into everything that is said. I think you have kept it honest in terms of highlighting the positives and negatives of the car as well as balancing the time and effort it takes into going FI and tracking the car and people need to read through the humor and understand the true points you are making without taking it personal. Jeesh. Like you said, you have invested a lot of time, money, and energy in your FR-S and you continue to year after year. That says a lot.

And I think it is really important to highlight the fact that you really do track these cars and push them. Other people who add FI are not.

thill 09-18-2014 04:52 PM

And I have to say.. In the outtakes where Turbowski thought he broke the car and realized what it really was... Hilarious.. He has this look on his face when he first thinks he broke the car like "oh shit!"

I am sure he had a mild panic attack...

RockRoll 09-18-2014 06:00 PM

Another great vid!

Braces 09-18-2014 06:11 PM

I agree. Loved the video. Nice to see some honest assessments about the 86 with a touch of humor. Keep up the good work.

raul 09-18-2014 06:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm amazed we're two pages in and no one has pointed out this "WTF" moment:

Dezoris 09-18-2014 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raul (Post 1952337)
I'm amazed we're two pages in and no one has pointed out this "WTF" moment:

I know its that easy to unlock, not even a password set.

raul 09-18-2014 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1952413)
I know its that easy to unlock, not even a password set.

You guys barely kept it together, lol.

Dezoris 09-18-2014 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thill (Post 1952200)
And I have to say.. In the outtakes where Turbowski thought he broke the car and realized what it really was... Hilarious.. He has this look on his face when he first thinks he broke the car like "oh shit!"

I am sure he had a mild panic attack...

I actually have never seen him so concerned. Usually he is like (pos, junk, garbage, pile)

He does like the car despite his hatred for working on them.

Jond63 09-18-2014 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951345)
and a square tire setup, where as the S2000 is using the stock staggered setup, which will not turn in as well due to less front grip.


Turn in on the stock S2000 setup is pretty phenomenal... I can't say I ever experienced any understeer in that car, but in the FR-S I feel it understeers a bit initially and then takes a bite.

DarkSunrise 09-18-2014 11:07 PM

Very nice video review. You and Turbowski have good "chemistry" :D

10Stars 09-19-2014 12:00 AM

SAVAGEGEESE! :bow: :thumbsup:

Review was very well done with good production value. I can totally see how someone would choose an s2000.

Honestly the reason I still choose the ft86 platform is because:

1. I can buy it new and with a warranty without worrying if anyone beat the car.
2. Better safety.
3. A somewhat usable back-seat and trunk.
4. Better MPG (Yeah I know but it does play a factor)
5. Coupe not a convertible (Should have cheaper insurance rates)

I think people get the vibe that you hate the ft86 platform because of you're prior videos. I guess people tune in, hear the cons, and immediately start spitting profanity without actually watching the whole review to see what else you have to say about the car. I actually like that you don't ****ride the car and can give honest pros and cons.

Any plans on a different set-up? Maybe JRSC in the future?

mfbmike 09-19-2014 12:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1952000)
UPDATE:

I wanted to answer this one as I got several private hate messages about bias and trashing the FRS.

Regardless if people think this was biased or not. I did buy both cars and am still investing in the 86, not just in time but also financially. It's a great platform for all of this.

lol, I fail to understand how people can get so up in arms about a review that happens to favor whatever is being compared to the FR-S. I thought both parts of the video were well put together, informative (I sure as hell know more about the s2000 than I did before) funny and interesting enough to watch both in their entirety.

Quote:

Originally Posted by raul (Post 1952337)
I'm amazed we're two pages in and no one has pointed out this "WTF" moment:

I saw that during my original watch and said "oh hey crazy anime" and kept watching as if I totally didn't see it. rofl.

Mini Cooper S 09-19-2014 12:32 AM

It would be fun to see the angry PM's :D

drewbot 09-19-2014 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mini Cooper S (Post 1952811)
It would be fun to see the angry PM's :D

Take out the usernames but wanna see the fanboy PMs

Wise 09-19-2014 02:06 AM

Awesome. Been looking forward to this.

Love the deadpan humour.

Mim 09-19-2014 03:47 AM

Just wanted to add a big thank you to you both. I've watched pretty much all your recent work and have to say its wildly entertaining. For me at least, your work is up there with other great shows like Everyday Driver for grin inducing value :)

Dezoris 09-19-2014 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mini Cooper S (Post 1952811)
It would be fun to see the angry PM's :D

I drop a few tomorrow

Quote:

Originally Posted by drewbot (Post 1952835)
Take out the usernames but wanna see the fanboy PMs

Will do

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mim (Post 1952962)
Just wanted to add a big thank you to you both. I've watched pretty much all your recent work and have to say its wildly entertaining. For me at least, your work is up there with other great shows like Everyday Driver for grin inducing value :)

Thanks, don't think its as good as everyday driver hey glad you think so.

R3NIK 09-19-2014 03:04 PM

The "problem" I had with my S2000 is that it was too well tuned from the factory. Yeah, not really a con, but unless you're buying a very nice and adjustable coilover setup for $1500+, the factory suspension couldn't be much improved. Bolt-ons added nothing and were expensive. Only when you go forced induction would you see noticeable benefits. And FI, along with nearly every other mod, was crazy expensive on my AP2.
With the 86, it's a great car for tinkering. It's good from the factory, but you can affordably increase that performance. Out of the box the handling is superb, but there's so much more you can do on a budget to reach and exceed S2000 performance. And that's while retaining the warranty. The added benefits of a coupe (usuable space, insurance, four seats, etc) are just gravy.

I'm sure the S2000 folks say the same thing if they were to (in my opinion) step up to the Cayman. As much as I loved my S2000, I enjoy my FRS more. Being 6'3", I was too tall for my S2000 anyway.


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