Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum - FT86CLUB

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-   -   S2000 vs. FR-S BRZ Track Review Video | Part 2 of 2 (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74378)

DAEMANO 09-18-2014 02:24 AM

Dezoris' result reflects the reason why considering the inflation adjusted MSRPs when comparing the cars is so critical. Comparing a $18k-$25k Toyota w/mods to a purpose built $40k+ (inflation adjusted) Honda should reflect the Honda being built to a higher quality standard w/ greater resale value. Same thing would be reflected comparing an S2k to a Cayman. The Cayman would prove dynamically better, with greater resale value.


The real difference is that the FR-S was built to be daily driver friendly, and cheap enough to serve as an attainable platform to mod on. S2k was more narrowly focused and should be excellent dynamically. Remarkably, with not too much money, an '86 can achieve performance levels above a car that would cost well over $40k in today's dollars. For those that need a DD, you cant beat an '86. Like with most "it" cars that came before it, mechanical weaknesses will become known and addressed by both owners and the aftermarket. Overall, for those that need some utility with their fun, the '86 has proven to be a great value.

Mini Cooper S 09-18-2014 02:49 AM

I'd smoke you Dezoris with my stock FRS on Primacy tires. Any track any weather.

Skurge 09-18-2014 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thill (Post 1951185)
If you have to go forced induction on the FR-S to match the stock power of the S2K you lose much of the warranty advantage on the new car.

That said, I am with you on finding a clean S2K. I have been looking most of this year and they are few and far between. And many of them are well over $20K. But I agree with Dezoris and Turbowski that the S2K will hold its value much better long term.



a friend of mine is looking to get rid of his, 95K stock minus an intake and wheels, clean clean car, i know he doesn't want 20 for it


the gray one is the one up for sale(red is his fathers 25K showroom condition ugggghhhh)
https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/...17&oe=54CF6DB7

Sideways&Smiling 09-18-2014 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAEMANO (Post 1951361)
Dezoris' result reflects the reason why considering the inflation adjusted MSRPs when comparing the cars is so critical. Comparing a $18k-$25k Toyota w/mods to a purpose built $40k+ (inflation adjusted) Honda should reflect the Honda being built to a higher quality standard w/ greater resale value. Same thing would be reflected comparing an S2k to a Cayman. The Cayman would prove dynamically better, with greater resale value.


The real difference is that the FR-S was built to be daily driver friendly, and cheap enough to serve as an attainable platform to mod on. S2k was more narrowly focused and should be excellent dynamically. Remarkably, with not too much money, an '86 can achieve performance levels above a car that would cost well over $40k in today's dollars. For those that need a DD, you cant beat an '86. Like with most "it" cars that came before it, mechanical weaknesses will become known and addressed by both owners and the aftermarket. Overall, for those that need some utility with their fun, the '86 has proven to be a great value.

That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

DAEMANO 09-18-2014 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951889)
That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

Comparing new vs. used is generally a bad idea. Reliability can't be tossed out the window, or wear and tear on the cars' interior and exterior. Especially with a car that was designed as a daily driver and not a solely as a weekend plaything. People who want a new car rarely will choose something 7 yrs old (that wouldn't have a warranty either).

As far as mod costs go. I could build a supercharged/turbocharged FR-S with tires, brakes (not a BBK unnecessary), shocks/springs, and an oil cooler that comes well under $10k that would probably be equally as fast. $7.5k would probably be enough. Maybe $5.5-$6k if you're ok with used parts to match the used S2K.

The point isn't a "same money" dollar per/mod on both cars point. The FR-S is a DD that you can buy new and mod that performs, is practical, gets solid MPG, and looks good. Special note, none of the most common N/A power mods that actually make power would void a warranty in themselves if going in that direction first. The point is the S2K was originally built as a much more expensive purpose built product. So it's no surprise that it was constructed with better quality parts and is holding it's value well. Now let's do the same comparison S2k vs Cayman.

Dezoris 09-18-2014 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1future (Post 1951051)
Sweet, it's finally out. Been following your videos for a while now. Very informative and interesting to say the least. The bromance is strong in that last picture.

Thanks we were hugging after checking tire pressures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRZnut (Post 1951059)
great video as always. Thanks for taking the time to do it!

Always enjoy it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1951146)
Video is too long. Will watch when I get home tonight.

Most of it is crap at the end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1951166)
If I were driving, which car would have been faster? :D

You'd probably be faster in both cars for sure.
I think we had another second to find in the S2000 namely on the main straight. And the FRS could have easily pulled another 1-2 seconds, as I only ran it one session. The S2000 I ran 4 sessions in trying to even get close to that FRS time and it never happened. FRS had much higher entry and exit speeds, much more balanced as you know, easy to push harder with less drama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951345)
Not trying to be nitpicky, but this comparison doesn't make much sense to me, to be honest. Why match hp figures and ignore all of the other differences? The FRS is lighter right off the bat, so that's going to give it a better power-to-weight ratio, and then you gave it light weight aftermarket wheels, coilovers, and a big brake kit versus a relatively stock S2000 (minus brake pads and tires). That's significant weight savings and a substantial handling improvement given to the FRS, while at the same time allowing it to have approximately 30lbs/ft more torque and a square tire setup, where as the S2000 is using the stock staggered setup, which will not turn in as well due to less front grip. Besides that, there seemed to be quite long stretches of straightaways, which obviously is going to benefit the car with a better power-to-weight and more torque. It seems like the outcome could have been easily predicted... and, realistically, it's not even close to an even comparison in terms of price or level of mods. *shrug*

They are within 75lbs of each other last time we weighed the cars. And yes it's true the FRS has the spec advantage which is what we wanted to show, how much does adding 10k to the FRS achieve against a stock S2000 with similar HP levels and real tires.

Is it fair, no but thats what makes some of this more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideways&Smiling (Post 1951889)
That's all well and good, but the FRS has roughly 15 years of technology advancements/refinements. It SHOULD be competitive. If it wasn't, there would be a real problem... and in the real world, today, it's possible to get an S2000 for significantly less money than a stock FRS.

About the FRS upgrades: "not too much money" is debatable. Adding a supercharger, coilovers, light wheels, a big brake kit, etc. is not cheap no matter how you look at it. That's easily $10k - $15k. That warranty goes out the window, and if you spent that same amount of money on mods for the S2000 you'd have a significantly more powerful car with a higher level of performance.

I'm not hating on the FRS. I still would like to get one eventually after they've depreciated more. I'm just being realistic about the comparison.

Realistically, you could look at even older cars like the 240sx and RX7 and get even more value for your money in terms of performance potential vs cost. It's hard to argue with factory turbo light FR coupes. The reliability might not be there, but the performance and excitement will be.

I cut it out of the video but, the 86 will be the car of the century when you can find a lower mileage one for 15k. It has a lot of potential. But at 25k. Nah. S2000 every time.

8 years ago I was in a Comptech SC S2000 on the track and that car has potential too. But where we were going here was the S2000 does not need much of anything to be a great car. The 86 needs a whole host of things to get there.

Dezoris 09-18-2014 03:02 PM

UPDATE:

I wanted to answer this one as I got several private hate messages about bias and trashing the FRS.

Regardless if people think this was biased or not. I did buy both cars and am still investing in the 86, not just in time but also financially. It's a great platform for all of this.

axelo 09-18-2014 03:38 PM

Don't worry about haters, there will always be hating no matter what you do brother. Keep up the mods and the vids.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.

thill 09-18-2014 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1952000)
UPDATE:

I wanted to answer this one as I got several private hate messages about bias and trashing the FRS.

Regardless if people think this was biased or not. I did buy both cars and am still investing in the 86, not just in time but also financially. It's a great platform for all of this.

I have watched I think all your videos. IMHO people read way too much into everything that is said. I think you have kept it honest in terms of highlighting the positives and negatives of the car as well as balancing the time and effort it takes into going FI and tracking the car and people need to read through the humor and understand the true points you are making without taking it personal. Jeesh. Like you said, you have invested a lot of time, money, and energy in your FR-S and you continue to year after year. That says a lot.

And I think it is really important to highlight the fact that you really do track these cars and push them. Other people who add FI are not.

thill 09-18-2014 04:52 PM

And I have to say.. In the outtakes where Turbowski thought he broke the car and realized what it really was... Hilarious.. He has this look on his face when he first thinks he broke the car like "oh shit!"

I am sure he had a mild panic attack...

RockRoll 09-18-2014 06:00 PM

Another great vid!

Braces 09-18-2014 06:11 PM

I agree. Loved the video. Nice to see some honest assessments about the 86 with a touch of humor. Keep up the good work.

raul 09-18-2014 06:16 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm amazed we're two pages in and no one has pointed out this "WTF" moment:

Dezoris 09-18-2014 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raul (Post 1952337)
I'm amazed we're two pages in and no one has pointed out this "WTF" moment:

I know its that easy to unlock, not even a password set.


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