Timing Cover Oil Leak
 

So my 2013 BRZ Limited (49,000 miles) is on its third oil leak from the timing cover, the first one happened a while ago. It was fine to drive on for thousands of miles (I was driving a 12,000 mile road trip when it popped up). I returned from the trip and immediately got it fixed at my local dealership (none had time to fix it at any of my stops across the USA and Canada). Within a few months it was back! I dropped it off at the beginning of December and had it fixed again (all under warranty thankfully) and then I drove it literally a quarter tank of gas, stopped to top off my fuel, and checked the engine bay. It was leaking again within 80 miles and I was driving it like a break in period, driving it really calmly with my shift light set to 4500 so I would always remember to be careful.
Long story short, I know others have had this problem, and some have had it keep occurring. Has anyone had any luck fully fixing it after multiple repairs, should I try something different? Should I sell it and buy another? Is there anything as far as recalls that can help my situation? I haven't even had the opportunity to track the car yet!
Thanks for reading! :sigh:

Well, @Keenercarguy, my FR-S hasn't suffered from that leak (yet).

Are you referring to the cam cover plate or the timing chain cover ... ??

If you referring to the cam plate, my first inclination would be to take the cover off, replace the "O" ring and goop it up with gasket sealer and "uniformly" tighten it down.

My second strategy would be to get an aftermarket piece and give that a go.

If you're referring to the timing chain cover, here is a link for your reference:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73941

I hope you get er fixed.


humfrz

If the mating surfaces aren't thoroughly cleaned & degreased, it doesn't matter how much goop gets slopped on, it's going to leak.

The devil's in the details.

This, as well as making sure they replaced the timing chain cover, Valve covers and rear camshaft caps . I hope they are doing this with the engine out of the car as well. When I first perused the forums this issue resulted in a couple people going lemon law to get a new car....

So, @Keenercarguy, shake off your hangover and let us know what the verdict is ...... ;)


humfrz

Well I got my wisdom teeth out a few days ago so I actually pick it up tomorrow. They do take the engine out for it and they were very careful the first time they fixed it (at least I think, they had it for almost two whole weeks). I'm going to break it in again slowly once i pick it up and i'll try to report back after the first couple days/ first few hundred miles. If they don't fix it this time then they have 1 last chance before lemon laws apy in my state. And hopefully just the threat of that will be enough to make them go overboard with the fix next time. IF it persists. I'll update this thread as soon as I know more!
Oh! And it's the timing chain cover by the way. Not the back of the engine like The issues of some others. This area isn't even under pressure! The oil is just seeping out slowly and it's ridiculous.

OUCH! ...... wisdom teeth removal. Mine were taken out by a dentist in the Army ..... he was pissed because he was drafted ......and for some reason, he thought it was my fault ..... :paddle:

It's my understanding that there isn't a gasket, it's sealed by sealant only.

Now, what could possibly go wrong with trying to pry an aluminum cover off an aluminum block (sealed with sealant) ....... with a steel crowbar ...... :popcorn:

Well, let's hope they get the leak fixed this time.


humfrz

Yes, it's not a gasket, just a sealant. Every time they fix it they actually use a heavier duty Fuji HI sealant than the original seal... And yet it still leaks. They're BAFFLED, which is always reassuring. Picked it up and drove it home this morning, no oil... Yet.

Well, let's hope it's fixed ......:)


humfrz

100 mile update: it's leaking again. Worse.

uggh

damn dude, you have my sympathies...:eyebulge:

I would be utterly depressed if this kept happening that's kind of annoying you should take it back one more time and request a tear down and reseal.

Damn sorry to hear, they must be doing something wrong. Any chance you can try another dealer?

I had mine fixed about 10K miles ago, *knock on wood* so far it's been doing well. But dang I'd hate for it to leak again soon. We are at the same amount of miles as well.

File a complaint on the NHTSA website here: https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

Subie and Toyota have known about this crap for years and have not addressed it sufficiently.

***Hopefully this will lead to an eventual investigation by the NHTSA, then the manufacturers might
pay attention and do something.

Oil consistently leaking all over the underside of your car is a potential safety hazard...

Well, that sucks!

I figure after that many tries to seal that cover, either it, or the adjacent part of the block has a crack in it ...... or, the block or cam cover is warped.

You wouldn’t think it would take a rocket-mechanic to “see” that.

I’d suggest they either mill the cover or replace it.

Is everyone sure that is where the leak is ….. and not just where the oil is showing up….??

Maybe after they seal it, then put the engine back in and tighten it down on the mounts ……. it’s binding the block and opening up a space for the leak…. ??


Keep us posted.


humfrz

Anyone know what cost may be if done by dealer w/o warranty? jw

I need to double check but mine was repaired under warranty TSB and it was about $800 usd plus oil change.

keep me posted. Friend's BRZ is at 43k with leak.

He should still be covered as there is a TSB for the timing cover leak. It covers basically all of the points for the seepage/lead. Mine was the passenger side cam cover plate.

The TSB calls for removal of the engine so that's where the $$$ comes in. Mine specifically could have probably be done with the engine in the car especially if the radiator was removed.

I actually have been wondering what the cost would be without a warranty but I forget to ask every time. I can tell you that the fix generally requires pulling the engine though so it can't be cheap. @Packofcrows the engine/powertrain warranty on the car goes to 60,000 miles too. Only the total warranty ends at 36,000 (30,000?).

So @Keenercarguy ...... what's your plan ..... ??


humfrz

I'm going to keep an eye on the oil level until I have a chance to bring it back. I have my first HPDE in this car in late February so it'll be before then. This I'm going to request (firmly) that they replace the actual cover, and check the block for warping. I think the repeated removals and fix attempts have only perpetuated the problem. I don't think the mechanics were... surgical... enough with the comparatively flimsy aluminum cover: the leak is worsened just about exactly where a pry bar would go... And only on the top in the middle 2/3 of the top line...
Essentially my plan is to make one last effort and make them replace the cover instead of just resealing...
:( :( :(

Sidenote: The free oil changes are a silver lining though I suppose

@humfrz

OK, here is my last resort.

Just weld that puppy on ...... :D

http://www.alumiweld.com/


humfrz

I am also currently having this problem, BRZ goes to the dealer tomorrow for repair. Hopefully it gets fixed the first time, I have confidence in my dealer they have yet to let me down. Doesn't mean I'm not nervous about it though.

Get photos of both mating surfaces after cleaning next time. Make them show you.

They're just dealer techs. There's no guarantee they're cleaning, sealing, or reassembling it correctly (if you don't get every scrap of sealant off of both surfaces and torque it evenly and correctly during reassembly it will leak no matter what), but assuming they are competent, I suspect another issue altogether.

The sealant is there to seal microscopic imperfections in 2 flat metal surfaces. From experience it is very easy to scar, mar, or chip these while scraping off old sealant. Once that has happened, it will never seal again. Plain ol' RTV sealant (even heavy duty stuff) will not fill a hole and last. It may seal initially, but after temperature and pressure cycles, it will leak. If one the 2 surfaces were chipped at the factory, or during assembly, or during repair, you need a new part. That either means new block halves or a new timing cover.

From experience, techs like to ignore little problems like that (because they will create tons of extra work and incur lots of cost) and supervisors like to ignore or dismiss them. The mechanics usually turn a blind eye and count on hope, luck, or apathy to make the problem go away.

Yes I said presure cycles. I know that area is not holding oil pressure, but it is holding up against the physical pressure of expansion and contraction during heating and cooling, as well as variations in air pressure as the crankcase internal pressure changes due to blowby and PCV.

It only takes a small amount of differential pressure to blow out RTV if it's standing on it's own without 2 mating surfaces to support it. Even in a tiny hole. Especially when it's hot.

TL : DR Magic doesn't seal it, magic doesn't cause it to leak. The repeated problem is caused by the techs' incompetence, or the techs ignoring a glaring issue.

@Spartarus I will definitely ask for the pictures this time and ask for close ups of every section too just to be sure. I'm really tired of the leak and it's already ridiculous at this point with so many leaks... Thanks for the comments!!

any updates? my timing cover area is showing some burnt up oil again (was addressed and "fixed" about 10k miles ago at 20k miles). It may have started leaking right after I drove it off the lot lol, but I haven't checked again until tonight. And I'm pretty sure it's been leaking since the beginning since at 20k miles, the oil looked pretty caked up.

I'm pretty sure they used a stronger sealant when they fixed it but I guess there's nothing else for them to do except to try again a second time right?

Yes they do use a stronger sealant the second time but in my case, and probably yours too, the heavier duty sealant doesn't seem to help. It's highly possible that the removal and scouring actions may be causing the continued problems but I have yet to receive verification. (The surface could be damaged to the point where the sealant can't fill in ALL the holes OR the cover or mating surface could be warped, they are just aluminum after all)
No updates yet unfortunately. I made the dealership aware of the issue immediately but I haven't been able to take it in for a fix since I'm in college a few hours from the dealership. I'll be bringing it in sometime sorta soon.... Whenever I get another real break. For now I'm just watching my oil level (check yours) and also checking my coolant level (it drains super fast!?).
It's okay to drive on the leak for essentially forever, but it's NOT okay to drive without oil or coolant so make sure you're topping those off if you need to.

Anyone have a specific explanation for why the coolant might be draining fast by the way? I have logical theory but I want to hear it from someone who is positive that they know why...

Second leak here, would you guys recommend me going back to the same dealership agin to have it repaired? They have over 500 4.5 yelp reviews compared to every other dealership in the area at ~200 and rated in the 3's. I'd like to think they'll pay more attention the second time. I was also recommended to go to another dealerhsip but considering their reviews, I'm worried they might just do a mediocre job since it would be my first time bringing it in to them, although I'm sure they'll see on my record it's been addressed once already.

I also seem to have a slow leak too. Last year's leak actually leaked and you could see fresh liquidy oil. Now it seems to be seeping and burning up at sealant. Pictures below.

Picture 1: Summer 2015. Leak 2 weeks after the dealership cleaned it. Fresh shiny oil.
Picture 2: Summer 2015. immediately after they resealed the first leak, nice and clean.
Picture 3: January 23 2016. Initial discovery of the second leak. Burnt up oil. no fresh oil.
Picture 4: January 26 2016. How it looks after I did my best to clean up the oil with towels.
Pciture 5: January 31 2016. 120 miles and 9 days later after c leaning it up. No fresh oil underneath, appears to burn up at the seal.

I'm a bit worried they're not going to consider this a "leak" and will just let it exist. Is this something that dealerships may use as an excuse to not perform the work?

Go to 2nd dealer, give them ONE chance to repair this, then call Toyota or e-mail them. Get in contact with them and scan/email them all the 'work order/receipt' papers you got from the last dealer.

I'm sure you'll get a new engine/car.

If it bugs you enough too, before taking to dealer, wash the oil off, drive it another 100-200 miles.

Ya know, @tracerit, after looking at your 5th picture, I'd suggest you just live with that tiny bit of "seeping" oil from that cover, unless it gets worse (like actually dripping).

Why? Because I figure the dealership would do more damage by prying off that cover, again, and it would start a real leak.


:popcorn:


humfrz

Hell, I'm not positive that I know the "why" of anything, anymore, however, I would speculate that your car's coolant loss has nothing to do with the leaking cam chain cover ...... :popcorn:


humfrz

Subaru released a tech bullettin in 2013 late to solve this issue.

I read reports of someone here getting it done at another dealership so I'll give it a try with them. They're closer too so it'll be easier this time around. Will show them teh work order from the first job, thanks for the tip. I hope I don't have to get Subaru involved, but i will see what they have to say if it leaks after this second time.

Yeah, I'm concerned about the damage the cover is taking from being handled. I'll note that when I bring it in, although I feel like the service advisors don't really type this stuff down when they present the order to the service techs. "Oh this customer thinks he knows more than our techs?" haha. I actually don't mind it seeping the way it is, I don't have any measurable indication of oil disappearing when using the dipstick check. It's just that I plan to supercharge the car and I'd hate to have this seeping possibly turn into leaking while the SC is on.

Yup, I had the TSB printed out and placed it on the driver's seat pretending I left it behind when I dropped my car off the first time to get it fixed :P

+1 on this, my leak has only gotten worse with fixing attempts :/

ugh... such a hard decision :/ have you considered requesting a replacement cover or block? if i fall into your situation, i'd keep bringing it back to them until they replace it.

That's actually my plan for next time. I'm sticking with the same dealership myself and at this point they know what's wrong when they see me. I'm going to request a new cover first… because it's cheaper and flimsier to begin with… but I don't live close to the dealership while at college so the fixes are staggered a lot.

Is the proper way to remove the timing cover to use a prybar? Looks like there's a grooved mark on the cover underneath the bolt on the left.

EDIT: nm, i went back to a video of my first leak last year and it had those same marks too. weird.

Here's a video of when I discovered my second leak. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZkYnZQrrcU"]Timing cover leak 2.0 - YouTube[/ame] When viewing from the bottom up directly, you can see that the oil is coming out from the cover side of the sealant rather than the engine side.

Well, I'm not sure there is a "proper" way to remove that cover.

However, if it were my car and I had the engine out of the car, I would first soften up the existing sealant with a torch and gently tap a thin putty knife between the cover and block ...... slowly moving around the cover with the torch and putty knife.

About a 2 beer process ..... :D


humfrz