Tire Width & Fun Factor Discussion
 

The reasons our slow cars are such entertaining cars is because they're so much fun to drive on the streets. They get sideways at very low speeds with their skinny tires and have good balance.

Chris Harris has a YouTube video out called "The Mercedes C63 AMG Experiment" where he drives the C63 AMG on 4 spare tires. Sliding around everywhere. In this clip he says:

"Modern sports cars are now so obsessed with lap times and circuit performance that at normal road speeds they're most boring because they never come close to moving around and making the driver work" -Chris Harris

He basically has twice as much fun in the car with skinnier tires.

You guys get what I'm saying.

How wide do you think our tires can get before you have so much grip you lose that fun factor?

I was thinking about getting some 18x8.5 wheels next year with some sticky tires.. but every time I slide around a corner on my stock wheels, I think twice about it with a huge smile on my face.

What do you guys think?

:popcorn:

Why 18"? looks? 17" can keep the weight down.

Going from stock to 17x9 with 245/40 tires was one of the best mods I've done. I prefer grip over drift.

+1 to OP. For all those NOT regularly visiting track / auto-x-ing, for those staying NA and not installed forced induction, i see no reason going for insanely wide tires only for arguable looks improvement when one mostly daily drives. Of course if they still value that fun bit that was there in stock. Some might not care about handling changes at all, going just for looks. I certainly would miss it. In my eyes 215-225 tire width of better tire type then Primacies is maximum i'd ever go for mostly daily driven car. Will also help keeping wheel+tire weight down.

I'm running 225/50s on 16x7s. Best wheel and tire change I think I've ever made on ANY car I've owned.

"Fun" is subjective. I run 255/35/18 as my definition of fun is going around corners as fast as possible on the limit of mechanical grip.


If I were into getting slideways I'd be running the stock rubber.

I haven't found any 17" wheel setups that I really cared for looks wise.. Any suggestions?

I'm running the same. 17x9 with 245 tires. I can EASILY make the car go sideways if the road is just a little damp. 190whp

I cant say the same for 18s, but it should be similar

Depends on your definition of fun.

What offset and do you have any pics?


TIA

I'm in the same dilemma more or less.

Seeing that the stock wheel is 7" wide, and if you're running a 17" wheel most people seem to go with a 17x9. So maybe a 17x8 would be a good compromise between grip and fun. Probably depends a lot too if you run high performance summers or all seasons.

This. Compound plays are large role here.

I had this same dilemma. I had 18x9.5's with 235s and hated the feel and how dull it made the car. I now have 17x9's with a 225 which is better, but I still miss the stock tires, they were too much fun to slide around everywhere. The problem is, I want the look of a wider wheel/tire but I also want the feeling the primacy's gave.


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I went to a lighter OEM Subaru 17x7 BBS wheel with some 225/45 Bridgestone S-04's. Huge improvement with some swift springs and a bit of camber. I can still put it plenty sideways, or drive it around mountain roads and maintain grip. Perfectly happy.

I'm on 17x8 with a 225 tire.

I like this as a happy compromise, I can take corners and onramps with a decent speed but I can kick the tail out whenever I wish to. 'Fun' is relative however, people like having all the grip in the world whereas others like being able to slide.

Width isn't nearly as important as tire compound. If you want the car to break traction easily, use a less sticky compound like the stock Primacy's (Ultra High Performance Summer category). If you want a bit stickier that you can still break loose on public roads without killing everybody upgrade the stock compound to a tire in the Max Performance Summer category. If you want the car to have better initial in and ultimate grip for the street/track use any 200TW tire in the Extreme Performance Summer category.

Go wider if you have already tried upgrading the compound in the stock width (215) or something near to it (225). If you need to shave fractions of seconds at the AutoX, go wider (245-275).


Tire Rack's categories jive pretty well in the real world with some exceptions of course.

Summer Passenger
Extreme Performance Summer
You want extreme dry street performance and are willing to trade some comfort and hydroplaning resistance to get it.


Max Performance Summer
You want an unsurpassed blend of dry and wet street traction and handling and only the finest will do.


Ultra High Performance Summer
You want an outstanding blend of dry and wet street traction and handling.


High Performance Summer
You want a good blend of dry and wet street performance when "re-tiring" your sports coupe or sedan.


Grand Touring Summer
You want a good blend of dry and wet street performance along with responsive handling and noise and ride comfort.


http://www.tirerack.com/tires/types/tiretype.jsp

16x7 ET40 Motegi Traklites...12.5 lbs each. Kumho Ecsta XS at 21lbs each I believe. Very noticeable weight loss...reacts much quicker over irregularities, and the slightly taller sidewall soaks up some of the harshness over the same stuff. I think I've posted a picture on here before...I'll try to dig it up...

Here you go...please excuse my filthy-assed car...lol

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=417

A million times this.

I guess for a daily...

Is there any reason to get a 17x9 wheel unless you wanna fit like 245/255 tires.

You'd save money + weight if youre okay with running a 17x8 wheel, with a 225/235 tire.

It just seems like that wheel size is very popular but Im not sure why we need something that wide.

Everyone wants concave wheels, which usually need wheel width. If I could get my hands on my wheels but narrower (and less weight) while maintaining the same concavity, I would - but that's dreaming.

What's with generalisation? For example - i don't care about concavity. I wouldn't use 'everyone' that easy.

Fair enough, but he asked why would you want wide wheels without necessarily wanting wide tires and the three reasons in my mind are all aesthetics - the wheel you want only comes in that width, you like concavity, or you like having stretched tires?

Agree with pretty much everything in your post. Quick correction though - Primacy's are actually classified as "Grand Touring" summer tires.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....del=Primacy+HP

I haven't seen anyone buy tires from that category but they should be quieter and less grippy which OP seems to be looking for.

255 is the sweet spot for NA I ran 225 RS3 on stock it was great made the car feel planted now with 255 RS3 on 17x9 shit is even more planted now i can take corners at a higher speed. -3 fr and -2 rear camber s money turn in repsonse is is perfect IMO . I can still get my car sideways on 255 aswell

I only do around 7,000km a year so the stock rubber will last me a while, but I would like to go for a lighter wheel and am thinking of going 17x7.5. I'll just migrate the existing tires and once they finally wear out I'll consider upgrading to 225 rubber.

All said and done the intention is to only go to the wider rubber once I've done some drive train mods.

More a wider query to throw to the crowd, but how much more power would you need to gain before needing to consider a wider tyre?

The mods will include a 4.556 FD, full header back exhaust, custom tune and I'll be sticking to regular 98 petrol. Would love E85, but its too rare around where I live to be practical.

Sorry I should add. Just like the O/P I want to maintain the current feel of the stock car or at least not mess too much with it.

"i can take corners at higher speed", "i can still get my car sideways" - yes, both CAN be done on senslessly wider tires. BUT! Is this what OP wants?
- no track racing, just daily driving - is there need to get corners at much higher speeds?
- yes, one can get car sideways even on formula slicks .. question comes at what situation and in what fashion this will happen. No more sideways with power (lacking @NA) oversteering at much lower & safer speeds replaced now with that done not with ease but rather very risky and very fast (maybe over legal speedlimits), probably in less progressive and more sudden way, often above skills of most but few for it to be reasonably controllable and safe.
Imho greater care should be done to reading what people want in giving advises. Even our gurus like CSG/RCE - they first ask for what type of driving and with what expectations it will be, before giving out any advises on suspension/wheel/whatever setup. Telling what's best for you, when OP clearly stated that he wishes for something completely different, is simply ignoring/not listening other party.

Powersliding at low speeds in this car is probably one of the funniest things about driving it.

I'm not sure I get it xD.

For example, you can 17x8 RPF1s or 17x9 RPF1s. I see no difference in concavity or are you talking about in general if you want a concave style wheel you need wide wheels, I'd agree with that.

But for a "daily" I can't see why you'd need a 17x9 unless you're all about aesthetics. I'm just trying to justify a 17x8 because you save money and weight :P

Absolutely, if you are happy with the looks and you don't want a lot more tire than stock, definitely go for a narrower wheel to save weight and cost on both the wheels and the tires.

Interested in this discussion for sure. I've definitely lost a bit of feel of nimbleness when going wider on an Evo. I'm not sure I'd say that I lost a lot of "fun" though. My plan when I wear out the Primacys is to go with a set of probably Bridgestone S-04 in 205/45 on the stock wheels and stay on the stock suspension for a while. If I have the car a long time I see myself lowering an inch, 17x9 57xtreme with 245/45 (because everyone loves concavity!) to better go with a SC. It'll be interesting to see how the feel changes.

17x9 245 with SC? Sure. Possibly i'd do that myself if went for FI, except maybe /40 instead of /45 for speedo to read the same. But not at stock NA power for DD.

Yep, I actually meant 245/40, thanks.

I get that some people's definition of fun is having tons of grip but I don't think it's possible to say getting sideways has never put a smile on your face...

So from what I've read so far it looks like 18x8.5 wheels won't make me lose the sideways factor & will also give me more mechanical grip which sounds great to me.

I'm thinking of going with some matte black works emotion cr kai's

While I have all of your attention- will 18x8.5 on 1" lowering springs rub? What offset would I need? (+47 +38 +30)? Seems that those are my only offset choices for that wheel.

+30 will poke and +47 might not have spring perch clearance so I'd suggest the +38 which should fit fine.

Edit: Might need to dial in a bit of negative camber to tuck the top but definitely doable.

Sideways factor, or Slideability(as you describe it) and mechanical grip are more dependent on tire size and tread compound than actual wheel size. Example:(I could put 13" wide wheels on my Lamborghini, but if I had Rough Country Off Road Radial tires that were 195SR65/19 on them the car would be a PIG!)
By the way I have Flat Black Emotion Kai's in 18x9.5 +38 with 255/35 PSS on my BRZ (excellent wheel style choice). I also put 300HP to the wheels with FI to ensure rear wheel slip! Makes a huge difference.