Dealer says I broke the clutch on a 45 minute solo test drive? Is he scamming me?
 

Hey folks,

I own a 2016 Subaru BRZ. My curiosity got the better of me, so I test drove a 2015 WRX STI sport-tech. I drove it for 45 minutes -- I had some fun, but nothing too crazy at all. I know how to drive standard.

Anyway, the dealer sent me this just now:

In reference to your test driveof the STI on november 4th, 2015, I am curious to discover who it is that has interest in this vehicle as I have not heard from you or Mr. Jones. I am also interested to know who was driving as well.

Upon return this car reaked of clutch burn and was subsequently put on the computer which gives a detailed analysis of its path and how it was treated during the test drive, ie: revolutions per minute, revolutions at clutching etc., very similar to the black boxes used on aircraft.

The findings of this process were not very favorable as this car may need a clutch now and we're not yet sure how the clutch burn smell will be removed from the interior.

Normal company policy is that these vehicles are not allowed out on a test drive without being accompanied by a sales person, but in this case our new sales representative did not know this.

I replied with this in response:

I am questioning whether it's possible that we managed to break a clutch in a 45 minute driving window, especially where I don't recall us exceeding normal highway speeds of 120km/h going around the ring road? For example I learned to drive clutch on my BRZ which I recently got from you guys -- which is really the most abusive you can be towards a new clutch (fresh clutch, new clutch driver), and the clutch on the BRZ is still fine, despite that. I also had some burning smell in the new BRZ -- very strong sometimes -- but looked it up online and dozens of owners say that that is perfectly normal for the first 1000Km of driving a new boxer engine with that gearbox. Sure enough the smell went away in my BRZ, and my clutch is still fine.

Here's a few links that I came across, and hundreds of similar posts if you do a quick google search. Same for the BRZ.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/everyd...ing-smell.html
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2015-sti...tch-smell.html

Dozens of people saying the smells are normal, and sometimes very strong, during the first 300-1000km. If the clutch does need replacement, I would be very, very surprised. When I was learning on my BRZ I made a few posts online, worried that learning stick on my BRZ was going to cause me to break my clutch. I had lots of people tell me that that is extremely hard to do, and that even a clutch which someone goes really hard on should last 30,000Km at absolute minimum. At any rate, that's just my 2c.

So, a couple of questions.

1: Am I screwed here? Is he going to be able to sue me for the cost of the car or something, even though I am 100% positive there's no fucking way in hell I managed to "break" a clutch in a 50Km drive?

2: Is it possible for any of the blame to fall on me, considering that his sales guy "wasn't supposed to let me go alone"?

3: Is the dealer just trying to scam me or something?

Curious to hear your guys' thoughts...

Did you launch it aggressively?

I did one test launch to see what was up with the boost but shifted up as normal and stopped accelerating around 60km/h because I was in a residential zone. Nothing that would break a clutch, but with a fresh clutch / fresh engine, certainly something that might have caused some of the new-car-engine-breakin-smell.

If they press the subject any further, ask to see the COMPLETE dataset from the car.


I would be interested to see if the data contains actual timestamps of when the car was "abused" or just "High water marks" like " Max RPM ever recorded".


If it is the latter, then they would have no way to prove it was you that did it.


My guess is that if you sound like you know what you are talking about and you demand to see the data, they will shut up.

If you're worried, consult a lawyer. Laws vary region by region, but I would imagine the burden is on the dealership to prove it was your driving and not someone before or after you. That is if the car even actually needs a new clutch.

Yeah, I'm going to ask for the data as per the person before you, and I'm going to explain to the dealer that there was 250Km on the odo before I got in it, so the person(s) before me might have been hard on it, too.

What I'm worried about is that he said "I'm not sure how we'll get the smell out of the car", which makes me think he's going to try and say I made the car unsellable or something and will try and pawn the whole thing off on me.

I'd personally say responsibility falls on the sales rep, as they are supposed to be with you in order to prevent these types of things from happening. Inexperienced drivers abusing cars and such. Not saying you're inexperienced, just thats the point of it. Usually they would give you an OK to a test pull or a launch where safe, so the liability would fall on them. I'm sure they're going after the employee as well and this is just your side of things.

It is impossible for the clutch to wear enough to need a replacement within 45 minutes of being driven hard by someone who knows how to drive. Most clutch wear comes from inexperience, which your BRZ proves that isn't the case here. Unless you really messed up and you're lying about how much you abused it, I'd say you're pretty safe.

As posted above, ask for full diagnostics regarding how they are proving you are responsible, including times where possible. If you believe them to have even a sliver of a somewhat valid case against you, consult a lawyer. Most have a $50-100 consulation fee. Chump change to cover your ass from a $1000+ repair bill.

Its BS to make you feel bad. A car can easily be cleaned to get rid of smell, especially clutch smell. It doesn't sink in to the interior in a way something like smoking would, and I've personally cleaned smoker cars of over a year and completely gotten rid of the smell.

Don't agree to anything via email. Ask for proof then consult a lawyer, or tell them to shove off entirely. This is a risk they take when letting customers test drive cars and is why the sales rep is supposed to be with you.

A new clutch will have some smell while bedding the disc, its perfectly normal. And the smell can be strong. I'd like to see anyone drive a brand new clutch without smelling it, the same way with brakes - the smell is part of the bedding in process.

It sounds to me like they haven't opened the trans to look at the clutch. Diagnosing clutch wear by smell is not going to be accurate. Diagnosing by computer may give you an idea of how the car was driven, but unless the tech is qualified to interpret that data (which he is not) it means nothing. An engineer or inspector would need to look at that data in conjunction with physically looking at the clutch.

Would they replace the clutch in your BRZ just because you said it smells? No, they would take it apart and have an inspector look at it to make sure nothing was wrong first. This guy is skipping the middle step and trying to go straight to "make that guy that test drove it pay" without even know if there is an issue.

There is so much wrong with that email - I would probably go rip this guy a new one in front of all of his colleagues and potential customers. Ask him to share the data that he got from the ECU, if he wont then the conversation is over. Accusations need to come with evidence - and they haven't even put their eyes on the clutch yet. I'd be pissed, especially as a returning customer.

As BRZoomTX said, don't worry about the smell. Many, many years ago I worked for a Cadillac dealership where we would frequently have to get cigarette smell out of trade-ins. Cars which had been smoked in (and heavily) for years. The dealership should already have the tools to do so, so they wouldn't even incur a cost.

Like others have said..the burden is on the dealership to prove that it was in fact you who messed up the clutch. It could have been a combination of different drivers including people who work at the dealer. To sue you over a clutch replacement would be a huge waste of their time. Also, they already admitted fault in their e-mail to you when they mentioned that they should of had a sales person ride along with you. If I were you, I wouldn't worry. The dealership is just being a jerk.

"Normal company policy is that these vehicles are not allowed out on a test drive without being accompanied by a sales person, but in this case our new sales representative did not know this."

It's on them, not you.

What are they going to do, sue you over a stock clutch replacement without any direct evidence? Tell him to pound sand and you will take all of your business to another dealer.

Stop overthinking it. It's clearly the lack of communication between the new salesperson & the dealership.

so how do you like the 15 STI?

New Subarus, which come from Japan, have a coating on the bottom to prevent rust in transit as the ships are a very humid enviroment. When that smell gets "burned off" it smells terrible.

The car is great, but I've heard the dealership experience can be hit or miss.

Why did you even respond to / acknowledge this?

I wouldn't worry too much. On my old STI hatch (basically shared the same powertrain as the new ones), the stock clutch was pretty beefy. I highly doubt the car needs a new clutch after 45 minutes of driving. That said, probably not the best idea to be launching hard on a brand new clutch & engine.

Not to hijack this thread (which, of course, means I'm about to), but can you tell me HOW you permanently got rid of smoker's odors? I've had my 2013 Toyota-Certified FR-S for almost two weeks now; it smelled like a new car when I got it, but whatever they used has now worn off and I can smell the smoke from the last owner. Gag. What to do?

Now, to un-hijack the thread.. the speed at which you drove the car has precious little to do with any wear on the clutch; once it's engaged, not much wear takes place. I don't know how long the O.P. has been driving manual, but it sounds like this is only his second manual car and that he learned on the first one. Who taught him/her? Self-taught? It's ENTIRELY possible some bad habits have been acquired; riding the clutch, letting the clutch out slowly at high engine revs or when downshifting to give the appearance of "smooth" clutching, or a host of other things, rather than rev-matching the engine and the wheels for the appropriate gears, etc. When teaching folks to drive manual for the first time, you almost HAVE to have folks go through the process slowly 'till they get the feel of it, but you can't drive that in the long run.

Saying you've driven a manual car doesn't necessarily mean you drive manual well. I'm not saying you DON'T.. please don't take offense; I'd have no way of knowing how well you drive... but I'm saying it's possible, especially in the dealer's eyes. During your discussion with the dealership, don't bother talking about how fast you were driving; that shows a lack of knowledge of clutch wear. Talk about your technique; you don't ride the clutch, nor pop the clutch when the engine revs are far out of sync w/ wheel revs, etc. That may help.

It would take a lot to ruin a clutch in a 45 minute drive, but it's sure possible if driving very aggressively AND abusing the clutch. On the other hand, I taught my wife how to drive manual on a Fiat Spider AND a Ford E150 4 speed van back in the 80s. We also put over 240,000 miles on the 325i we just got rid of, and the clutch felt like the day we bought it w/ 60,000 miles on it.

Just some thoughts. I, of course, have no idea what really happened.

Sure would LOVE to know how to permanently eradicate cig smoke smell from my car; I MUCH prefer the occasional burning oil smell.

Best to all...

Barry

It is the dealer's fault, they should have sent the sales person with you as an escort. Case closed.

Man, just going by your post history, your life seems hard.

Here is the deal. There isn't an issue. The dealer is trying to cause you to think there is to open up an email chain. They will get you back in the door and convince you to purchase a new STI through guilt.


They know your credit situation / income / everything from your prior purchase. All this is, is another salesman taking a different tactic to bring you in to the dealership and open communication again. They see you as an easy mark. Don't even respond to another email if you don't want another car.


Did you sign a test drive agreement or give them a copy of your insurance?

Yeah, probably and legally. Ethically, I dunno.. if the O.P. DID go crazy on the clutch (and I'm not saying he/she did.. who knows) and pushed the car more then he/she would have had the sales rep been in the car, well... that would have been unethical and irresponsible of the customer. The fact that the dealership probably can't do anything about it doesn't make it right.

PLEASE remember.. I'm typing in hypotheticals. I don't mean to assume or infer in any way that the O.P. DID this.. only that the possibility exists that someone has at some time.

Barry

Then again the STI could be a test drive mule with a scorched clutch and they could just be putting the blame on you. Did you smell it when you went on the test drive ?

I agree completely.

Basic contract law... Liability of loss remains solely with the dealer. If you were held up by gunpoint and someone jacked the car while you were test driving, it would still be on them. PLUS, they already admitted their own fault on their employee. If you signed some sort of agreement admitting responsibility while it was in your possession, they would need proof of your negligence, which they obviously don't have or you would have received something more than an emailed complaint.

Don't even give them the time of day. If you gave them no consideration, didn't sign or orally agree to liability of loss, then they can fvck off

Smoke gets literally everywhere. You need to scrub down everything in the car. Here is what I do:

Remove: front floor mats, rear floor mats, rear seats, front seats if possible / time allows, all trunk material. Cleaning everything outside of the car will give you more room to really scrub down things, especially the seats. This also lets them air-dry outside of the car. Leave trunk and doors open while you clean.

Hit the floor mats, seats, and carpet with a carpet cleaner. Soak all exposed carpet and other fabric, and go over things with a brush. Once its all scrubbed down, take a wet friendly shop vac and use it to suck out the cleaner. Use a towel or large microfiber to rub the carpets until fully dry, leave windows open so the carpet airs out.

Install a new cabin air filter. This one works great for the 86:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NEWUGI/ref=as_li_ss_tl?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_de tailpage_o04_s00&linkCode=sl1&tag=tamymoanshup-20&linkId=81c29a67eb93a6466276fd7cedd05cfc"]Amazon.com: FRAM CF10549 Fresh Breeze Cabin Air Filter: Automotive[/ame]


Don't forget the seatbelts as they absorb the smell too. Top things off with your favorite air freshener and you're good to go. I've never had smoke smell come back. :thumbsup:

That's an awful lot of work. We had an expensive industrial sized one, but really all you need is an ozone generator and some time. Do replace the cabin air filter, though.

Can't speak for this one directly, but it seems cheap enough to be worth trying: [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Build-Removal-Treatment-Generator/dp/B00632Y4VK"]Amazon.com: Basic Build Odor Removal Shock Treatment Ozone Generator: Health & Personal Care[/ame]

If you'd rather not risk it on just Amazon reviews, I should be able to get the model number of one which I know works well.

F that dealer.

This is your chance to play the role that Toyota / Subaru does in every instance of this in a customer car. Just tell them the clutch is consumable wear item and not under your warranty.

Then offer to replace the clutch for them for $3000, and throw in a coffee mug with your face on it so there's no hard feelings.

-Justin

You cannot and will not ever be forced to pay a cent for this issue.
So don't even buy into it.

Dealerships have insurance for a reason and have a special agreement with "head office" who also has insurance to deal with issues with new cars:

- If a new car comes off the delivery truck with a scratched wheel, the dealership will put in a claim to Subaru NA and they will send them a new wheel to put on the car.

- If the clutch is bad on a new car, they can either send a "specialized tech" with parts to fix it "as new"on head office's dime (or their insurance) or they can claim on the dealership's insurance and have insurance cover the damages and lost value from a new car already having a claim on it....

The employee with get in trouble or fired for screwing up but they cannot come after you. And seeing as you already own a car of theirs I don't know why they would go after you prematurely with negative intentions. I would avoid this dealership if you can cause that seems shady.

I wouldn't be afraid right now, I would be offended and I would be taking my business elsewhere.

I agree with this. If the test drive didn't go correctly through their policy shouldn't be at your fault. I can't imagine you were the only person driving the car too so I wouldn't worry about it. You didn't crash the car; there should be nothing tying you to damage with that vehicle

Found the 1L

:cheers:

edit: or maybe your post just gives me bad flashbacks

Its a lot of work, but takes no more than a hour or two. Easily knocked out as a Saturday project with time to spare.

Nothing will get the smell out as good as scrubbing everything down. Smoke gets in to the carpets under the seats. If you don't clean that, you will still smell it even though the rest of the car is clean. You can get under there pretty easily on most cars. Older cars it really is easier to take seats out. We pulled both seats from a 240sx in less than 10 minutes.

^THIS, they admitted they did not abide by their own policy. I would admit nothing. Let them sue if they want to sue, which they won't because public image..etc. Plus lets say you just drove the car in a spirited manner, well that is the way you drive a performance vehicle. Maybe another customer drove it afterwards, and beat the snot out of it or hell maybe a salesman drove it that way who knows...

Policy or not, premature failure of a wear and tear item on a new car out for a test drive is not his responsibility. I also bet this guy isn't the only person to ever drive the thing, so good luck proving it was his fault.

Just ignore them, you've already explained yourself too much to these a-holes. Remember to take your business elsewhere if possible in the future.

-Justin

you should ask them to give you the vehicle to do an inspection and just beat the ever loving shit out of it, then return it and say, hey its fine.

OP should not have responded in writing. They were fishing for him to respond with something that would serve as an admission he drove it recklessly.

It is not necessary to do all that ridiculous work described above. Even if you did scrub it as described, the smell would still be in the parts of the car you couldn't reach, down in the foam of the seats, in the ventilation system, etc. Once the smell of the cleaning fluids wore off, you'd smell cigarettes again.

The way you get rid of cigarette odors (and mold, and dead animal smell, and the body odor of Jim your unhygienic coworker who shouldn't have been driving your fucking truck while you were on vacation) is to use an ozone generator. You can buy a small one from Amazon for under $150 that will do the job. Ozone will kill just about any odor, including cigarette smoke. That's what hotels use to get the smell out of mattresses and rooms when people smoke in them.

Some people set up the ozone machine in the car for a couple of hours. Some people shut the car in a garage with the car doors and windows open and ozone the entire room. You just want to get a good enough concentration of ozone that it will saturate the car and bond with the odor-causing chemicals.

You don't want to breathe that crap, as it will irritate your eyes and nose. It will also suffocate animals that are trapped in the area, so be sure to put the cat out. Once you finish ozoning the car, you want to air out the car and area you ozoned completely. You also don't want to leave it running for a long time or ozone your car a lot, because prolonged exposure eats electronics. A few hours shouldn't hurt anything, though.

And you can also use it to get rid of mold in your bathroom, especially that nasty black mold growing under your tub that you otherwise can't reach.

Dealer rep needs to go back to grade school. First rule of stinky things: He who smelt it dealt it.

Hey there Sam, I know you have had a month of practice but if this goes to court you just may want to ask the Mods to delete your other thread. Have no doubt a lawyer will twist it against you.


http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94505

The dealer is not scamming you.
This issue makes me want to buy a new car with no miles on the odometer.