Throwout bearing.
 

OK so this entire situation has been a nightmare. Over the last year every time I have taken my car in for regular maintenance, I had free oil changes from the dealer as part of a service package, I have complained about odd noises and smells coming from my clutch. They make the notes but say that in order to diagnose it's going to cost a lot of money and it may not be warranty as the clutch could be bad and that would be wear and tear. Last week my car broke down. Could not use the clutch. Had it towed to a mechanic, the mechanic opened the transmission and was like whoa the throwout bearing is completely melted, your clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel still have about half life left so those don't need to be replaced just yet if your budget is prohibiting all of that work. I said hold on I think the throwout bearing is covered by my warranty (I'm at 54k miles). I speak with Toyota corporate and they say in fact that part is covered by warranty. The mechanic was extremely nice (THE auto shop in Irvine) and he didn't charge me for anything because he said he doesn't want to take money from me on something that is warranty work. Jason thank you, I will return and give you continued business. The dealership tows my car in, and put me on hold for 2 days because now an inspector from Toyota corporate has to come in to inspect this warranty claim. Now this morning I get a call saying the throwout bearing will not be covered by warranty because my flywheel and pressure plate show hot spots, meaning it's misuse and abuse. So now I am looking for advice. I don't have any engine or transmission modifications. I don't track the car. I don't drop the clutch. I drive the Frs hard sometimes sure, but nothing that this car shouldn't be able to handle.
So. Thoughts? Anything you all may have to help me refute this Toyota nonsense?
Thanks,
B

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You said the throwout bearing melted... The clutch and flywheel have "hotspots".... if the throwout bearing melted wouldn't this have caused the hotsports in the firstplace??

I don't know enough from a technical standpoint about how the parts are related nor do I know how the temperature would be affected by the failure of the throwout bearing.

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I'd call that other mechanic back see if he can give you some inform,ation/knowledge about that and then go back to the dealer and argue with them, quite common for them to try and blame it on misuse but they are the ones who need to determine it was misuse it is not your responsibility to prove you did not misuse it.

BTW anyone know if they make an aftermarket throwout bearing that is of higher quality? my throwout seems to be going too(but I'm supercharged so I figure changing it would just bring the same issue right back in a year or two whereas a reinforced bearing could last longer.

No. Not possible. The melting bearing wouldn't cause anything like enough heat, and is not close enough to the friction surface.

Sorry to say, but hot spots, in the form of visible discoloration on the flywheel and pressure plate is evidence of improper use. Not necessarily intentional, but that's irrelevant.

Dealer could be lying though, do they have pictures / did they show you?

As far as technical information, picture this. All the throwout bearing does is allow the clutch fork (which isn't spinning) to push on the pressure plate fingers (which are spinning very fast) thus releasing the clamping force that is holding the clutch. The wear on this bearing happens when your foot is on the clutch. All the heat and clutch wear happens when the clutch is in transit (mostly when you are letting off)

I'm surprised that they decided to warranty a throwout bearing, they usually don't. It is a wear part. They have denied many throwout bearing warranty claims simply on that basis.

You don't have to drive a car "hard" to hot-spot a clutch. And you can drive it hard without hot spotting it. All the heat generated in there occurs while it's slipping. Poor clutch technique during normal driving will do it. Stop-and-go traffic and hill starts are much more likely to cause spotting than HPDE or track events. The hot spots are created when the friction surfaces literally get hot enough to melt the metal and change the surface composition. A bad hill start roasts a clutch. A "clutch drop" while hard on other components, doesn't generate anything like the same amount of heat.

(You can do the same thing to brake rotors riding the brakes.) On a funny note about brakes, people usually ruin those driving too slowly down mountain passes. There is this funny myth about hard driving and wear that just isn't true. You can utterly destroy your car driving like grandma. I've seen people set brakes on fire driving 25 mph. That's what happens when you ride them for 10 miles straight down a steep grade.

One last note: you can destroy the throwout bearing without causing any wear on the clutch. Simply put your foot on the clutch and rev the engine until the bearing dies.

I work where rotors are made and any warranty claims involving our rotors get sent back to us. The vast majority show very clear signs of overheating from being ridden. It does some very distinctive damage and even though the owners always say "I never did that" we can tell. Oh yes, we can tell.

None available. ACT makes one. Quality uncertain.

Forced induction / increased HP will not affect throwout bearing life. Throwout bearing life depends 95% on driving/clutch technique and 5% on driving / traffic conditions.

There were a few cases reported on here where the fork was not lubed properly and it was deemed the cause of the failure. These were some of the rare occasions where it was actually covered under warranty.

That sounds like you know what your talking about and this seems like a battle I will not be winning. Bummer.

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As far as the dealer lying about Hotspots they didn't determine that. They had an inspector come from corporate to determine if this was warranty work. It seems as though that guy would not risk losing his job to save the dealership a few hundred dollars.

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If the damaged throw-out bearing was preventing smooth engagement / disengagement of the clutch, it certainly could have contributed to the damage to the friction surfaces.

In any case, it doesn't matter since Toyota warranty seems to consider the entire clutch assembly including the throw-out bearing as wear items. 54k is an early death for a sensibly-driven clutch, but it's not unheard-of.

Also, I am assuming the clutch items in this car are Subaru, and subary is known for AWD and terribly weak clutch hardware - especially the throw out bearings. In case your bearing has messed up the transmission snout, there are companies that make a replacement steel sleeve that slides over the scored up snout. They're not free, but it's cheaper and easier than replacing the transmission housing.

-Justin

Subarus seem to kill them off at a faster than normal rate. A friend had one go bad in his WRX at 26k miles. I had a clutch replaced by the dealer on my outback last year and the throw-out bearing started making the awful squeak of failure before its next oil change (I have the parts, just need a weekend to pull the car apart and replace it).

Another friend replaced all the clutch parts immediately after taking delivery of his STi because the stock parts have such a crap reputation.

-Justin

I authorized the replacement of the bearing. But the question is since my clutch has hot spots is that going to contribute to it having a shorter life? The service guy just said it won't be smooth. I don't care about that I just want to make sure that this clutch isn't going to die in th next 10 or 20k miles. They said it is at about half life.

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Clutch job is usually a lot more labor than parts. If they have it open and you can afford the parts, I'd have the clutch replaced while they're in there. Dealers will usually only install OEM parts, so you may just want to have them do the bearing and then go back to the great shop you were dealing with for an upgraded clutch.

-Justin

A damaged throwout bearing could definitely prevent the clutch from engaging/disengaging properly. If the clutch wont engage or disengage right, then the clutch will slip - hotspotting the flywheel. Ask the inspector how he knows that the flywheel was hotspotted before the TO bearing failure. I guarantee you he wont have an answer for that - there is no way to determine which happened first.

On another note - put the car in neutral at stoplights if you don't already. That will save the TO bearing.

@Spartarus ....... THAT was an excellent post ........ :thumbsup:


humfrz

I never do the rest in first gear at a stop thing. And I can't contact they inspector as they refuse to release his information.

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another bearing problem...

wouldn't it create additional wear with the upgrade clutch due to the added pressure ?

I couldn't tell you I've only driven 1-2k km on the car bought it and it started doing it on the drive back(6hr drive). Either it was just defect, either it didn't like the long drive or Dan rode the clutch lol

I'm at 35k not miles, kilometers and although it has not gone yet I feel like it will be going soon (rattle, grinding noise) Guess I'll give the ACT bearing a shot or maybe I'll see if any bearing shops in the region can custom make me one from... I dunno Adamantium lol

I don't know the exact warranty stipulation on the TOB but here's info on warranty issues.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96221

Here's the 2013 Warranty info on the transmission and dispute process

Ah. You didn't mention that before or I didn't see it. Yes, a stiffer clutch will increase throw out bearing wear.

All I was saying is increased horsepower alone will not increase throwout bearing wear.

This forum is flooding with this throw out bearing issue. Should just show Toyota corporate these threads, maybe they will wake up.

I have never understood this attitude.

Your car is a wear part. The whole car. Sh*t wears out. SOMETHING has to wear out first. If it wasn't this it'd be something else. Just be thankful it isn't a Kia Rio and the "wear part" in question isn't the timing belt snapping before the maintenance interval on an interference engine.

These bearings seem to consistently wear out between 50k and 70k depending on clutch usage and technique, but many people have gone way over that without problems. This almost always sounds operator-induced.

The clutch inspection interval is 15,000 miles. The wear on the bearing will most likely be audible in a test several thousand miles before it goes out. Almost all the users with the problem have reported driving the car with a strange/bad noise coming from the clutch. The ones who didn't report it probably should have (didn't notice or didn't correlate a bad noise to a mechanical issue). Correct maintenance means by the time you hit 60K the clutch has been inspected 4 times.

I feel your pain. I wish I was the bearer of better news.


No. It can't, it didn't, and it won't. On cars with a hydraulic TOB where the slave cylinder and TOB are combined, that might be true under very specific conditions, but in this car, with a clutch fork, that just isn't possible. You could replace the TOB with a flat metal donut and the clutch would work perfectly (until friction melted the clutch fingers... It wouldn't work for very long.). The fingers would eventually be damaged and the clutch would howl like a banshee when you pressed it, but it would work just fine.

When the bearing starts failing, it can score up the aluminum transmission snout that houses the input shaft. Trying to slide the bearing on the scored-up surface definitely can cause issues in clutch engagement / disengagement.

-Justin

I'll concede it's possible... but it there would have to be a lubrication issue as well. That or you'd have to drive on a bad bearing for quite a while, and even then. You would definitely feel it in the pedal, and hear the bearing screaming... the rotating part doesn't touch the snout. To score the aluminum, you would need a motherf*cker of a side load in transit. I'll admit a bad bearing and lack of lube could cause that much sideloading, but at that point you're driving on a component that is positively identifiable as broken.

Google it. You'll see no shortage of image results for shredded Subaru transmission snouts.

The bearing goes bad, causing the sleeve to spin on the shaft, which scores it all to hell. I'm not sure if this is a Subaru-only thing, or just something that happens a lot more often on Subarus than other cars.

Here's the google image results for 'Subaru transmission snout' https://www.google.com/search?q=suba...ih=661&dpr=1.5

Edit: I have a spare transmission for my Miata in the garage and I went out and took a look at it. The Miata transmission has the snout as a separate piece that is bolted onto the trans housing. It looks like Subaru transmissions have the snout molded into the housing, which both makes the snout weaker and also introduces a split line running lengthwise on the snout. The Miata snout is one piece with no split line.

I haven't pulled the transmission out of my FR-S yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the transmission uses a Subaru-style housing. If so, prepare for throw out bearing problems or invest in one of the snout sleeves.

-Justin

One more reason to get rid of the Subaru motor then. Interesting, I've never seen that on any other car with a fork.

That said, by the time it does that kind of damage, the bearing needs to have been bad for easily long enough to identify. It has to have been making an awful noise while it's dragging and seizing. I've never left one anywhere near that long.

If you continue to operate a clearly worn-out part for long enough, eventually it will fail catastrophically.

I added an explanation why this may be more common in Subarus than other cars above. I think I was editing while you were replying.

I know of a few cases where people went to the dealer at the first signs of the sound and were turned away. They were told it was nothing or that it is normal or that it couldn't be replicated.

-Justin

But it was a good thing those people took the car to the dealer because they then have proof they were worried about it and the tech said it was nothing-- so dealer's fault

When they do find it, they usually don't cover it. They usually consider the throw out bearing a wear item like the rest of the clutch assembly.

-Justin

AISIN makes the Toyobaru transmission. The "snout" in question is not molded into the housing, it's a separate piece that bolts in. It also houses the front bearing and seal, just like the w-series, and r-series. 7 little bolts.

Then I have no idea why one of these would fail early unless it's they're just making these bearings worse these days.

-Justin

What good is a 60k powertrain warranty if a critical part of the powertrain isn't considered good for the life of the warranty and it's failure (potentially catastrophic to the tune of thousands of dollars) falls on the customer's responsibility?

There's a fundamental problem with throwout bearings failing before 60k outside of a few outlier cases imo.

Thanks to you and @Spartacus I may be removing my trans at my 45k to replace my intermittently noisy bearing (currently at 43k).

The difference would be that if the failure were identified early, the cost would be the price of the bearing plus labor to R+R, not that plus all the other expensive parts.

I think it should be addressed, I just don't know if bringing it to the dealer early increases the chances of warranty coverage.

-Justin

I noticed there is quite a bit of people having problems with the throw out bearing. Is this problem only happening to people with Manual Transmissions or does this effect people with Automatic's as well?

Ummmmm believe me it is only the MT guys since ATs do not have one (it is part of the clutch assembly)

Mine started to make a noise before the 60,000km service. The Subaru dealer replaced it under warranty when they did the service.