Dealer Didn't Disclose Previous Damage
 

Hi all,

I have a few questions, I'm looking to get help from anyone that might be knowledgable on the subject or have advice as to what I should do.

I purchased my 2013 FR-S used, in July of 2014. Now let me say this, I couldn't have been happier, I'm 21 and was finally able to afford a car I really wanted, this was also my first car purchase 100% by myself. Which turned out to be a mistake, and I'll explain why.

The dealership I purchased my Scion from was King's Toyota in Cincinnati, Ohio. When I originally financed the car, it was for $24,XXX. It was immediately upside down due to my trade in being $2,000 less than what I owed. (First mistake, but I was well aware of this.)

Second, this car had just arrived at the dealer, it wasn't available for sale yet, but they did the inspections and were ready to sell it in a couple days. When I got back, ready to sign the papers and drive home in my new vehicle. They told me the car had been in a previous accident, but all they replaced was the front bumper and front passenger, tiny corner window. This being my first major purchase, I didn't think anything of it.

No big deal right? (Second mistake)

Now, I didn't sign any paper work regarding the accident or damage. They also didn't show me a CarFax and I also didn't think to ask for it as the title was clean, which I did ask about. (Third mistake)

This year, I drove to a few dealerships looking to test drive a few cars, something a bit bigger.

While I had no immediate intention of getting into something new, one of the dealers asked if I wanted to see my trade in value, so I said, why not.

Now remember, I payed $22,000 for this car.

They offered me a whopping $12,000...

While depreciation in these cars is pretty impressive. At 42,000 miles and "really good" condition, this was mind boggling to me.

Right as I was about to ask, "why?". They showed me the CarFax.

The car had a previously replaced engine at 6k miles and a taillight replacement all done by the same dealership I purchased it from, due to an accident by the original buyer. Not to mention the air bags did deploy.

This information was 100% new to me. All that was disclosed to me was the front bumper replacement and side window.

I went to get copies of all the sales paperwork for my purchase (without mentioning why). They told me they couldn't do it, I then asked to speak to a manger and all he did was take my name and number and said they'd mail it to me.

This was two+ weeks ago and no calls or letters in the mail.

My question to you guys is, do I contact the dealer?

Do I get a lawyer?

What might my options be?

I'd appreciate anything you guys could do or insight you might have.

If you have any questions, I might have left out I'll respond as soon as I can.



Edit 1: Thank you to all who have replied. I know this was overall my fault. I do plan to keep driving the car for a few years and pay it down. I still love the car and don't want to get rid of it.

I did pay too much. I realize this now.

Also, I didn't sign any paper work that stated the car was "as-is" the only papers I signed regarding that was my trade in, stating it was "as-is". The FR-S was also still under factory warranty when I purchased it. I bought it with 28,000 miles.

I'm going to go ahead and speak to a lawyer like most of you have said. I'm fully prepared to not have a case at all. With consumer law, if you win. The attorney fees are generally paid for by the other party. (Or at least this is what I've read.)

But you're right, if the lawyer thinks it would be a hard case, I will try and work something out with the dealer myself because the fees would be too much at this time.

Wow that sucks balls Not a lawyer(although Ii do have several University common law courses) and also from Canada so I'll keep it general. You could always call a law office in your region and ask for advice on whether it is worth to pursue legal action (deceptive practice?).
Maybe call some kind of consumer protection agency and ask for advice on how to proceed.

I hope all gets resolved for you but at the very worst you learned how important doing your homework is before forking over large sums of money and that may save you from potentially losing out even more money in the future. If you can't take legal action I would recommend keeping the car(Instead of taking a giant hit on it!?)


Anyways good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I would ultimately like to keep the car, but I'd like to receive some sort of compensation for the lost equity. If they can't do that, a buy back. Then I'd at least have a clean plate to work from.

Here's Kentucky law on car buying:

http://ag.ky.gov/civil/consumerprote...ges/lemon.aspx


Note:
But also:
Edit: Sounds like you should call a local lawyer as the car was misrepresented to you. However due to the length of time since purchase and that people buy bum cars all the time I would be surprised if you got anything significant. There's all sorts of legal things you can do to make sure you actually get the money back and the lawyer doesn't swallow it all where lawyer fees are included in the settlement etc.

I've caught some articles by Steve Lehto, seems like reasonable advice, he may have already addressed it somewhere as well:

http://lehtoslaw.com/

I am definitely no expert on the subject but some of the blame definitely lies on you. As a consumer, you have some responsibility to do your research and ask for that carfax. I don't know any dealers (at least around here) that wouldn't give you a copy. I absolutely agree that it's horseshit if they only told you it was a bumper cover, however, with nothing in writing I don't know if there's much to be done. Again, I am no expert but that's just how I see it. Sorry about your luck dude. That's why they made beer.

This ^ I am afraid. They did disclose that there was damage even if they did down play the extent. The problem lies that you signed a contract and the fine print is probably pretty clear that you were taking the car as presented. I doubt that you can prove that they only told you part of the story.
Sucks big time though.

Hello dat 86 guy and welcome to our forum ........ :clap:

Well, like mentioned above, now you have gained an important life experience.

OK, you are 21 and you like (liked) the FR-S. So, it had a few bangs and got a new engine. Does it look good? Does it run good? Can you still fit your family in it?

If so, I suggest that you continue to drive it for a few more years (or until your family outgrows it).

Kind of like stocks ..... you don't lose any money until you sell.

Don't let that "bad deal" wreck up your enjoying the car.

Just be thankful your purchase wasn't a house, that you found out later was sitting on top of a sinkhole.


humfrz

Sorry man I see two routes:
1) Get a lawyer who will then on your behalf do the thinks you said i.e contact the dealer and find your options.
2) Realize this is essentially your fault, I know it seems harsh, but you bought a used vehicle with no warranty expressed in written form or implied, and it is your responsibility to do the due diligence on the vehicle i.e. going to a dmv and seeing the vehicle info based on V.I.N., and paying for CarFax on the vehicle or asking the dealer to pay for it otherwise walking

Take this statement with a grain of salt:
"
While most used car sales are "as is" transactions, sellers do have some obligations under used car law. The main obligation that you have as a seller in many states is to disclose whether the car is a salvage vehicle, meaning, was it ever in an accident and declared a total loss? If the car in question was not repainted because of an accident and doesn't have a salvage title, based on used car law, the buyer can't require you to take it back based on the fact that it was painted.

Based on used car law, the duty here is on the buyer to inspect the car, ask his questions, and make sure the car meets his needs up front, before the transaction takes place. Because he didn't do that in this case and didn't confirm whether the car was painted or repainted, it is his loss that he didn't check and you're not going to have to give back the money or pay any damages if he does sue you. Based on used car law, he has no legal grounds based on the set of facts presented and his case should be dismissed if he tries to bring it."



Honestly, you can take action and find out for yourself, but what I believe will happen is you'll lose more money getting a lawyer and losing a case, you're a 21 year old guy that had a honey moon phase over getting it any who and didn't do any digging on a USED car. You enjoyed the car regardless of it having been in an accident so why not just keep enjoying it?

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...fax_inacc.html

I just read a few reviews in there and it appears even if the CARFAX was clean when you bought it, it doesn't mean anything later as accidents mysteriously appear. There are reviews where a car is 100% not in an accident and the CARFAX shows it was.
Maybe that's what you are dealing with? I'd bring it into a body shop and have them comb it over and see what's what.
Basically it sounds like CARFAX is not reliable at all. Even though I vaguely remember looking at the screen for Car fax when I bought mine a few months ago,
I'm going back in to see the one on my car again and check as mine had 3K miles on it when I purchased.
Good luck with everything.

The dealer informed you the car had been in an accident, you didn't request a Carfax, and honestly, you paid too much for the car (knowing it had been in a collision). On top of this, you traded in a car that put you underwater on your previous loan. If you tried to pursue legal action, you have no way to prove in court what the dealer told you the extent of the damage was, and even if you could, legal fees are expensive.

In my opinion, your best bet is to keep driving and enjoying the car until the point where the depreciation/lost value doesn't matter much, and consider this a very valuable lesson learned. We all make mistakes sometimes. Lord knows I have. What matters is that you learn from them.

The short answer is, "Ask a lawyer."

The longer answer is what others here have said - you're probably out of luck. Carfax is far from perfect (the biggest flaw is they rely on self-reporting), but it's better than nothing and there is literally no excuse to not get one. You put yourself in the hole 2k to buy this car but you didn't spend the extra 40 bucks? Never mind that any decent dealer should offer you that or an Autocheck for free in this day and age.

And of course, you can also get Autocheck for free anyway with this helpful hint.

Ultimately you have to prove the dealer misrepresented the damage and with nothing in writing you'll be stuck. If it's running well, just enjoy the car, pay it off and you'll do better next time.

I would still try to negotiate with the dealership. You never know what may come of it. Maybe they can comp some additional warranty. You made a mistake, but we all make mistakes and you will learn from this.

On the positive side ... Sounds like you have a new motor. Drive the car. Move on and be wiser next time.

Kings Toyota providing shitty customer service once again! Sorry to hear about your situation man.

What's the outcome you'd be looking for here? If it's monetary compensation for misrepresenting the true extent of damage originally done to the vehicle? You're (or rather your lawyer is) fighting a pretty steep uphill battle to prove anything beyond what's on the contracts...And even if you did get something out of it, that lawyer wasn't free and the amount of time required to go through the process won't be quick either.

Now that you've got the proper mindset...DO IT ANYWAY!!

Yeah, okay you're partly to blame because you were awestruck at the time because you were finally able to afford a car you loved...To which the dealership took full advantage of and played that against you.

Seek legal guidance and take these predators to court (or better yet, come to an agreement and resolve with a settlement). Even if it's a wash and whatever you get out of it is trivial, you've got the piece of mind of knowing you caused that dealership to lose time and money with their own lawyers having to fight the case (a form of 'compensation' in and of itself).

Good luck with whatever you decide.

this is dangerous advice my friend

Agreed. This only makes sense if you have time and money to burn, and feel like entrusting your car back to the same folks who lied to you already.

And in about my 50th repeat on the theme:

If you are ever, even slightly, for one second considering taking any form of legal action against anybody do not post anything on a forum or social media about the issue. Do not say one freakn' word about it. Not one.
You may feel you are anonymous but it isn't hard for the lawyer's experts to pin point you in any form of social media. In the mean time you have handed all of your facts, thoughts, plans and arguments to them on a golden platter.
When it is all over and done with then we would all love to hear the story but talking about it before hand is just the same as playing poker with your cards face up and theirs hidden.

The title of this post is very misleading... they DID disclose that it was in an accident.. you failed to ask more questions and blindly bought a wrecked car.

Looks like they preyed on you, my comrade. I know we are in the "should've/could've" phase now so I'll add this: should've brought your parents or a trusted friend/other family member along who has past experience in buying cars.

I brought my parents along more as morale support than anything else. Still asked for their advice regarding numbers and looking over the contract. Would a second pair of eyes have helped you here? Who knows. But now you learned your lesson. Life experiences! :)

To parrot what others have said here, if the car works fine now, keep it. I know you want something else but a potentially costly court battle vs selling vs keeping the car - which one be more wallet sucking for you?

You forgot "make an alcoholic drink" at the end of your advice. I am disappointed, kind sir. :cry:

Just tried this and it totally worked for all of our cars.

Carfax won't even show all accidents anyway. If you damage the car yourself, don't file a police report, and pay for repair yourself or through a claim with your own insurance company, nothing will show up on CARFAX unless the repair shop decides to report it. And most don't.


.

Sell it yourself instead
 

Why can't you get more for it with a private sale. I'm sure it could gather an extra few thousand, if not more. A dealer is going to sell the car for 19k probably. Making 7k off of you seems strange, but what do I know about cars that have been in accidents.

Sorry, did not read this but was the title a rebuilt or salvage title, or clean?

Based on the trade-in value from the other dealer I assumed salvage?

It's actually clean.

Which is normal for most accidents. It was repairable instead of being totalled out.

As others have said, feel free to talk to a lawyer but I don't see that the dealer did much wrong here. They clearly told you about it so at that point you should have had it inspected elsewhere if it was a concern.

Sounds like you are really getting lowballed on the trade-in. I don't see how this car is worth $12K used when even a salvage title is worth more. I suspect the other dealer was trying to take advantage of you. $20 says they would buy it for $12K and then turn around and sell it for $18K.

That said, you learned a few lessons here.

The first being never go upside down on a trade-in. It's just a really bad place to be with cars.

The second is don't ever trust the dealer especially when buying a used performance car that lots of people drive hard and have been known to mod. Always have a trusted mechanic look over the car.

Carfax is useful but even then you can't trust it. There are plenty of wrecked used cars out there that were never reported on Carfax.

And you just can't trust dealers. Especially with used cars. Even though they told you the car was wrecked so they were not totally lying, that should have been a huge red flag to you.

At this point you can get lawyers, etc. Or you can just keep the car, drive it, and enjoy it. Pay it down over time and at some point put yourself in a position to buy a different car if it bothers you that much.

Do not go even more upside on another car though. That's just a really bad cycle to be in.

Oh, and I will give you $12,500 for it :)

Not kidding....

Kings toyota is very shady when it comes to sales and especially service but try to get the original document and see what you signed on. If it directly say that you're buying a damaged car then it's your fault for not checking the damages.
Do you remember who you worked with? I remember seeing that car on lot back in 2014 before I got my whiteout. The person I talked to did mention a problem with this car regarding an engine issue but not the bumper replacement. That's when I backed up and looked somewhere else when he mention that the car is basically "new" after informing me about the damages. That crap aint new lol.
As for the documents, sorry to say but you're not going to get any documents Unless you bother them everyday by actually driving there. You got ripped off on this one and there's really not alot you can do if you signed off on a damage car sale. You might be able to get them on falsifying information overall good luck!
If you want me to go yell at them with you hmu!

The best advice I can give you is go enjoy your car and move on. Car dealers do this shit all day long, everyday. Anyone who has ever watched peoples court knows how this turns out.
You allowed a financial decision to become an emotional decision. The dealership showed you the pathway to have the car of your dreams and once it became attainable common sense went out the window. Consider this a learning experience. Your young, you will make many more bad decisions


The path your going down now is not productive, it will continue to aggravate you while you pay the next higher scumbag on the financial scam ladder good money to fight a case he has no chance of winning.


By all means, if you can get a free hour consultation with a reputable attorney to discuss the merits of your situation , do so. But honestly there isn't enough money involved for a reputable lawyer to give a shit about it.


What's really happening is the car dealer sees another sucker coming in to by another used car he can't really afford and he's setting you up to pay the most amount of money possible and give you as little as possible for your trade, using your emotions yet again. He senses that you want out of the car and into something different and he just planted the it's been wreked so it aint worth much seed to lock you into that mindset.


Cars get wrecked everyday, they also get fixed. So what if it's been wrecked. It took you going to a dealer to trade it in to figure it out. It's got a new motor, that's a good thing. Does it drive straight? Can it be aligned to spec. Does it have any major issues? Sell your car outright. Personally I'm surprised they offered you that much. There are new '13,s ,14's and 15's sitting on lots here with 16's showing up already.


Yeah, it sours the experience to find that out, but I suspect emotionally you have already moved on and see yourself driving a different car. This time just make smarter decisions and do your research before rather than later.


Most car dealers lie. Not all of them, but most.

Let this lesson sink in. At least it wasn't learned during the housing bubble like a lot of people. This is a relatively "cheap" lesson at that.













And damn, you paid WAY too much for that car. That's brand new car value.

One of the best nuggets of advice in this thread.

My dealer claimed they had all the keys. When I showed up to get the car they just had the valet key and said they couldn't find the others cuz the guy I worked the deal with wasn't in yet, and they'd mail them to me. Guess what?... they had lost the keys and refused to fix it because "they had sold the car too low to make a profit if they had new keys made." So guess who doesn't have keyless entry?

Never trust a dealer.

Contact a few different lawyers - the dealer misrepresented your purchase in a way that greatly impacts the value of the car; no one would play $24k+ for a car that was so beat up. (If all the accident info was public it will be a harder claim against them but still talk to a lawyer because dishonest dealerships need to burn)

Also realize the cost of your mistake is the money you will lose selling the car... that only happens if you actually sell the car - so unless you NEED it gone you are better off keeping it. Also dont trade it in t0 the stealership, selling privately is the way to go. (I hope you'll be more honest than the dealer)

Dont waste time with the dealership. They screwed you as a joke and are living off the profits; it's what they do.

A more satisfying route is small claims court. Does not really matter if you have a case or not. It is cheap, its very educational and can actually be kind of fun if you are of the right mindset.

If you file in small claims, you wont stand to get a huge chunk of money; what you will do is burn the dealerships money and time. They may or may not send a lawyer down to respond. If they do send a lawyer, that is even better because he will burn the dealer way worse than they burned you.

The other thing I learned in small claims is that most try to do a mediation before it goes before the judge. This is fun because the mediator is a bit more common sense based. "Listen, I know you are within the letter of the law but you did deliberately screw this guy over" is the way mediators deal with things. Mediation is NOT binding so if you don't like what the mediator says, then go to the judge. Small claims does NOT award legal fees since it is meant to be a lawyer-less process, so you should not have to fear that. (I speak of Ontario).

Personally, I think you just got a good albeit expensive education in how dishonest ALL car dealers are. These are things they must do to survive. The good news is that you wont be making this mistake again.

If the car is driving OK, I would not worry too much as long as you plan to keep it five years or so. My car took a hit that needed a fender and a door and I could care less since it was repaired nicely and I will drive it for ten years and scrap or give it away to a family member or friend.

Does filing a nuisance claim (with no real hope of any substantial settlement) against the dealer not perpetuate the issue? The dealer is not likely to learn a lesson and now their margin just got smaller and they have to screw over the next guy to make it up. That is presuming they intentionally misled the guy in the first place.
We have very little to go on from the OP other than the vague description of what the car fax said. It could very well be that the dealer didn't know anymore then what they told the buyer at that time and were not out to screw anybody. All we ever hear is one side of the story on these things and the masses always take the buyer's story as the gospel truth and condemn the dealer with little or no background facts. It is not reasonable to say that every car dealer is crooked. There are certainly more than some other businesses but there are also some very good and honest dealers.

I have purchased no less than 30 cars, probably more. I love to negotiate and enjoy the process. Every time I get to the finance office, and I mean EVERY time, I was asked to sign a form(A DUE BILL) that states the deal is complete and that other than what is listed on that form. It's typically shit just like you described, a second key, some floor mats, or some other trinket that I absolutely stalled the deal on until they gave in. If it is not on that form, they don't owe it to you. I learned this lesson early on in my life when a car dealer did the same thing to me and I got shorted.


I can tell real quickly if I am dealing with a reputable dealer or not simply by how the finance guy presents a due bill to me (Mine are never supposed to be blank, I always negotiate something into the deal). If I make it into the financing (Should be called UPSELL Crap you don't NEED OFFICE) and that form is presented to me blank. I go over the terms of the deal again, or I start filling it out myself. Years ago I was presented with a real treat of a finance guy who couldn't stop trying to sell me the extended warranty I wrote "Free Gas for life" on the due bill while looking him in the eye. He finally shut up about extended warranties and no, I did not get free gas for life. But I got him focused on the task at hand that was important to me and not him and I got my negotiated car mats. If they say they will mail them to me, I ask that it be noted on the form. It's just good business.


My point is simply this. If the dealer owes you something they can't deliver at the point of sale, GET IT IN WRITING, nothing else matters


Listen up folks, Car dealers exist for one reason, it is to sell cars. They don't care how they do it, they don't get paid until they move inventory. It is as simple as that. I don't fault them for it, in fact I admire them. They are the best of the best salespeople. That's why they are selling cars and not washers and dryers at BestBuy.


Car dealers are not all dishonest, they are just doing there job, which is to take a used car that somebody else didn't want anymore and present the positives to a buyer who can't or doesn't want to buy a new car. They are not going to focus on the negatives, that would be stupid. They are going to emotionally tie you to the car and urge you to make a decision NOW. That's what makes them good salespeople.


To a certain extent I think it would be a good experience for the OP to pursue the small claims route. Not because I believe he will prevail, but because it will be a great life lesson and emphasize how the real world works. As far as whether or not that changes the buying experience for the next person at that dealership... who gives a crap. The dealer will either survive or it won't. Given the number of deals they make I can almost assure you with 99% certainty that the paper trail is going to show full disclosure, the car was purchased AS-IS, and the buyer signed off on it prior to taking delivery when you get to court. Bear in mind that in order to recover anything you will have to prove diminished value, which will be nearly impossible on a used car, that by your own admission you had knowledge of being in an accident. It is the degree of damage, which the carfax will show as being fixed, that is in question. You will be asked under oath if you had a vehicle inspection done and all the other things that are just proper due diligence when buying a used car, and I think those facts will work against you.


Anyway, good luck to you. Let us know how it turns out.


EDIT:


OP, I've been here thinking about your situation and I really do feel for you. I don't want you to think your being trashed on for how things went down. Everyone of us has made some poor decisions in our lives and we all will do so again.


In reviewing this thread I gleaned some information in the post by @strat61caster regarding the lawyer Steve Lehto. I wasn't sure where I recognized that name and it came to me that one time when I was really angry about a car situation I was involved in I came across his name and had listened to some of his podcasts. Here is one in particular that you should listen to:


https://soundcloud.com/stevelehto/ho...car-sale-ep-42


Steve describes a situation with one of his clients and how it came to a positive resolution. Pay particular attention to what he says at the 15:10 mark about how the laws have changed and the costs involved regarding lawyers fees.


Bottom line and keep this in perspective: You own a wonderful car, short of my Cayman S it is hands down the best handling car I've owned in stock form. It is well balanced, easy an d inexpensive to work on, has tons of aftermarket support and overall just a fun car to drive. Take yourself mentally back to that day you took it home, remember the excitement and how much fun it was to go out and see it in your driveway and know it was yours. You will recover from this, just keep your thoughts rational, stick to the facts and move forward the best way you can. Nobody here, well at least not me, is judging you or your decisions. Being over twice your age has allowed me the privilege of making the mistakes and given me some expensive hindsight along the way. Just don't let it consume you.

And that is why small claims court has a mediator on offer before you end up in front of the Judge. They listen to both sides and make sure that everything from each side is on the table. They are good at cutting past the emotions and explaining the facts to each side.

Are you wasting the dealers time? Maybe but if they pulled off a deal that left a client this unhappy, they have some learning to do.

Is it a nuisance claim? Not for us to decide.