Suspension: Chasing Gremlins in the Front Passenger Wheel
 

Description: Front Passenger Wheel Pulls Straight when taking left turns, car feels unstable and traction control turns on. Same wheel pulls when changing lanes, left or right. Car feels erratic at high speeds and front end feels like its got its own direction.

At first glance of the images of the coilovers from the camber plats, i noted that the passenger side markings state a LOT of negative camber, whereas the the driver is more near zero. The Alignment sheet is not indicative of this. Thoughts on why?

I had issues with improper endlink height. The front passenger endlink was tight, and compressed where as the driver was normal or not under pressure. The endlinks have been corrected, but car is still driving erratic.

At flat ground, the alignment looks to be inline with the alignment sheet, however, when the front suspension is compressed, such as parking in an incline, the passenger wheel has visible toe out.

After a 10-12 mile drive, i have noted there to be more tire wear (rubber on my hands) on the passenger tire than the driver

Wheels: This has been noted with OEM wheels/Tires, OEM Wheels + Winter Tires, and 18x9.5 Rays 57DR with 255s

Suspension: Fortune Auto V500 + Fortune Auto provided End Links + Cusco Sway Front 20mm

Front Passenger:
http://s29.postimg.org/5u5ou6ojn/IMG_3203.jpg


Front Driver:
http://s14.postimg.org/6fcnlpbzx/IMG_3204.jpg


Alignment
TOP = Initial
BOTTOM = Final
http://s3.postimg.org/ypwtgyn8f/IMG_3207.jpg

Your alignment is off.

-alex

^ sounds like the toe is out of wack.

Top is before? Bottom is after?
Doesn't look like they touched the front camber.
Toe and go. Which a lot of lazy alignment places do. Or possibility they didn't know you had camber plates. Which means they were lazy to check.

How long ago was the alignment? It could be something slipped. If the camber slipped on one side, that would throw the toe way off.

I would find a better shop, there's zero excuse for not matching camber when you have camber plates.

It says 9/14 on the alignment sheet.
But yeah, Mach V motorsports should fix it. I would talk to them and see what they say. I've seen good reviews and mixed reviews on them, I would give them another shot as I wouldn't want to pay twice.

I went back to Mach V for a realignment, but they said my alignment is in spec, and is aligned.

Additionally, they put the car through the diagnostics of checking the yaw, vehicel speed senor and other sensors, all checked out. They tried to charge me labor for the diagnostics without my approval, while never putting the car back on the aligngment rack.

Im not sure if i would agree with mach V's good reviews - i found them to be a pain in the ass, attempting to charge me for something that should be warrantied. I did not pay as I came there for an realignment

It seems like the toe goes out under compression of the front suspension only. Does the .3 difference in camber between Passenger and Driver front make a huge difference?

Thank you everyone for yalls input. This has been an issue for about a year now... Haven't been able to truly drive the car

Passenger side:
http://s30.postimg.org/jtpd3r9q5/IMG_3211.jpg
http://s10.postimg.org/o8er6ugmt/IMG_3217.jpg

Driver side:
http://s17.postimg.org/esfq0rjvv/IMG_3212.jpg
http://s3.postimg.org/dhcakgj6n/IMG_3216.jpg

Where's the corner balance numbers?

Find a shop that's experienced in corner balancing and adjusting camber plates, sway bar endlinks etc. This shop does not appear to be able to take the care needed, if my car came back with camber plates that different and an significant difference in camber I would not go back, that would be a red flag for me.

I would assume that the erraticness is due to the crossweights being wrong, a corner balance should work wonders.

Edit: Talk to the guys when you drop your car off, understand what you're paying for and what they will and won't be doing, I would not be surprised if you just dropped the car off for a basic 4-wheel alignment, they left the front camber alone zeroed out the toe and called it a day. (Although you did get a lot more camber in the rear when you picked it up, toe does affect rear camber the way it's interconnected I think)

My money is still on corner balance.

It's not in spec. Show them the paper. It would be all darkened. Sounds like an excuse to get you out. I understand Front camber will never be near .75 "in spec" and the rear camber is not adjustable, but they should match the fronts and be within reasonable .1 difference and not .26. It's not a huge difference, but still a 1/4 degree. A person driving in the street would probably not notice. But for a track oriented person it is huge. Too much for my liking. I wouldn't be happy. My alignment guy got me 2.9 camber all around and .04-.06 toe all around.

Meh... Another mixed review of mach v motorsports. You also need to mention what kind of alignment you want to them. It seems that they didn't even try to get the .75 "in spec" camber in the front. Chances are they got lazy and didn't want to raise the car(to unload the suspension), go up top and adjust the plates, lower the car and do it over and over until it is right. Sounds like a lazy alignment.

Also a possibility your right rear is lower than the rear left, that is why it has more camber.

@Mach V Dan Any idea what's going on here?
Did you guys confirm an alignment without putting a car on an alignment rack, or visually inspecting camber plates? :iono:

Nothing bent?

Upon inspection, nothing is visually bent, or out of shape.

There is a marking on the Front Lower Control Arms, Passenger and Driver of where the endlink once brushed up against it, but there is no wrinkle, or bending of any arms or frame.

Do you have any suggestion of where i should look and a link to a stock picture?

Thank you

Don't go back there then. Any performance shop that tells you an alignment is good enough because it's "in spec" doesn't know what they're doing (IMO).

Find another shop, first question is if they'll align to your specs, second is if you can sit in the drivers seat while they do it. If they answer no to either, find someone else.

As for the difference 0.3* makes, it's not a huge deal on a street car... but I would bet that something slipped and it's no longer aligned like what the sheet shows. With the camber plate maxed out you should have well over 2* of camber.

I see two outcomes:

1) Mach V fixes it, either at your expense or theirs if it was service error.
2) You get it fixed somewhere else at your expense.

Again: it is an alignment issue. Your first sentence about how the front end wanders on its own tells me everything about what is wrong.

Visually everything may be fine, but a proper alignment shop can figure out why it is off, and what is the cause.

-alex

@Mach V Dan .. can you warranty your alignment?

A previous Neighbor and a current tech at Mach V, Kevin reached out to me regarding this issue.

Hes worked with the shop management to get me in after hours for a realignment and allowing me to come in the shop to get it aligned to my spec. Thank you Kevin at Mach V.


Regarding the tech who tried to charge me (Deren), while failing to verify alignment on the rack...He looks to be a repeat offender with bad customer service at Mach V.

I hope the Mach V management can figure out a way to keep Deren's attitude from impacting customers like it did here.

Thanks again Kevin @ Mach V.

I had my alignment done at Mach V. They did a good job hitting my requested camber and toe specs. Strange that they would half-ass your alignment the way they did, but glad they seem to be taking care of it.

Okay, there's a lot here for me to address, so bear with me...

The upper mounts don't have that much adjustment range, so the difference in position you see is probably accounting for the 0.32 degree difference in camber. When we did the initial alignment, you told us you were fine with the camber as is, but that the toe was your big concern. I promise you, 0.32 degrees of camber differential is not going to cause any kind of weird driving behavior.

That said, we've agreed to bring the car back in and get the camber more perfectly even, at no charge.

If you compress the suspension on a lowered car, you are going to see the front wheel on the compressed side toe out. That's bump steer. It's a function of the suspension design. There's hardware to deal with this, like the Whiteline Roll Center Adjustment Kit. Or you can raise the car back up so the camber/toe curve is more like the design spec.

From the behavior you and our technician described, it sounds like the front/rear roll stiffness is not matched, and the front is stiffer than the back. Push it into a corner, and the front end plows. Stability control steps in to try to keep the car pointed in the intended direction. I think this is the key to the issue you are perceiving. Either stiffen up the rear with a beefier sway bar, or loosen up the front with a skinnier one. (If the bars are adjustable you could try adjusting the end link pickup points.)

We are professionals. We are not "to [sic] lazy to check," nor would we be unaware that a car had camber plates. As mentioned above, at the initial visit, Adeel told us he was fine with the camber as is, and that the severe toe was his biggest concern. (He was right. The toe was really off, front and back.)

When you arrived you described a symptom of stability control coming on under hard cornering at speed. YOU felt the problem was caused by alignment. We did not agree, and I believe we are right. Your problem is not caused by the current alignment, which is fine.

Now here I have to admit we were wrong. We should have had a discussion with you first about what we were going to to, and how we would charge for it. Normally if we're going to perform diagnostic work, we're going to charge for that work. We did not expressly communicate this to you up front, and that was a mistake. I am sorry. I am also sorry that my technician became defensive and was not polite at the end of your visit. That is not acceptable behavior here, and I spoke to him about it.

The reason we checked the wheel speed sensors and their operation, as well as the other components of the stability control system, was that the symptoms you described (car pulling in turns, traction control light flashing) could be caused by a problem component in the stability control system. Wheel speed sensors are the most common issue.

I apologize for the miscommunication. I stand by my assertion that the alignment is not your problem.

What you came for was a remedy to your problem, which is not necessarily an alignment. Once again, though, better communication between our staff and yourself would have made us all happier, I think. For this I take responsibility.

Bump steer again. Normal behavior if the car is lowered. Worse if it's lowered a lot.

No.

The only thing not in factory spec is the front camber and the rear right camber. We usually run a little more front camber than stock spec, for better front end cornering grip. And to reiterate, Adeel told us this was fine at the initial alignment visit. Rear camber is not factory-adjustable, so that's just changing from the toe adjustment. Without installing additional hardware, we cannot change it.

I think the roll stiffness is too high in the front, and bump steer is causing unpleasant dynamic toe behavior.

Ouch. That's kind of judgey. Come by and talk suspension with me, then declare whether we know what we're doing.

We don't have any evidence for that. Adeel has had this perceived issue since before the first alignment. I think it has been this way since he installed the current coilovers/sway bar setup.

I don't think so.

Sure, we warranty our alignment. But doing an alignment on a car does not make us responsible for the whole car, nor for fixing the pre-existing suspension we did not install. To say this once more, the alignment is not the problem. Adeel, I think you told me you'd had this car to something like five shops, trying to correct the problem by aligning it? Logic would point to some other root cause.

Here's what I suggest: Loosen (if it's adjustable) or replace (with a smaller one) the front sway bar to reduce front end roll stiffness. Either install the Roll Center Adjustment Kit or raise the ride height to remedy the bump steer. Then evaluate and see how the car drives.

--Dan
Mach V

Miscommunication? Were you clear on what settings you wanted?
"I promise you, 0.32 degrees of camber differential is not going to cause any kind of weird driving behavior." It won't be weird, but it wont be ideal. Although he did not request specific settings the first time around... performance alignment(if requested), from a performance shop, on a performance car, with performance parts, should be near perfect. But that is just my opinion.
How many times did you have to go back? How much time spent? Why was the camber not even on the first try?

In the end, the customer is happy and Mach V has resolved the issue.

I would like to see the alignment sheet now that it has been fixed.

Update...

Kevin at Mach V contacted me, apologized and recognized that there the previous tech should have handled things better. He walked me through different alignment techniques, use cases of when you need more toe, camber. He also aligned the car to my spec. Thank you very much Kevin.

He recognized the tech should have verified the alignment using the alignment rack, and not tried to charge me for it.

Kevin @ Mach V took the time to realign all 4 corners the same day, and stayed at the shop until 10pm yesterday to make sure the car was aligned, handled well and there was no erratic steering issues.

During the alignment, we talked about the type of typical driving conditions, roads, and styles to meet my wheel alignment balance. He also dropped some knowledge on me about cross-cambering, and other alignment techniques i was unaware of.

He was extremely thorough, equalized tire pressure across all corners, verified multiple times steering was dead center and verified all corners were exactly what i wanted.

Since yesterday's alignment, the tires have more traction than before, does not erraticly pull or understeer, and drives balanced again.

Bad experiences happen, but what matters is that the stakeholders recognize the experience, and work together to correct them. Mach V, and in particular, Kevin at Mach V took the steps required to show excellent customer service.

Thank you Mach V for correcting my alignment issues, and Thank you Kevin for following through.

Edit:
- I will post the alignment sheet some time tonight
- Thank you to everyone on the forums for helping me drive this issue to its resolution