Brake Pads: Stop Tech Street Performance vs. Ferodo DS2500 vs. Carbotech XP10?
 

Hello! I just bought a 2013 BRZ yesterday as a track toy, and named her Smurfette. :D I'm reading about what to do to get her track ready and carefully reviewed the brake pad thread. The car currently has Stop Tech Street Performance pads that are low, so I was planning on putting on a new pair (front and rear) and doing a brake flush with Motul 600, as both were completed ~20k miles ago. The car also has my favorite tire, the Michelin Pilot Super Sport. I will probably use the car as a daily once or twice a week.

Is there anything else I need to do to prepare the car? My goal is to last an entire track day and not experience any brake fade. I know the Ferodo DS2500 and Carbotech XP10 are favored, but they are also a lot more expensive (2-3x). Is it worth it?

I have a decent amount of track experience in a Porsche Cayman S. I've always run OEM brakes/fluids and had it maintained by the dealer and independent shops, so I'm very new to self-prep and maintenance. I've never had any brake fade with the Porsche.

If brakes fade towards the end of a session, do I need to bleed them or just let them cool down to work again? I hope to do 1-2 track days a month, maybe explore some twisty roads, and meet other enthusiasts in NorCal!

:burnrubber:

If you're ***** footing around the track, the Stoptech's will be fine. If you're actually pushing the car in the brake zones, they simply aren't going to work well for more than 3-4 laps being driven hard.


I just ran these pads at Mid Ohio over the weekend, and as predicted, I had to baby the brakes to get them to last the full 15 minute session. Running them hard would cause them to fade after just 3 laps. Great autocross pad, not quite up to track duty.

What brake pads would you recommend for hard driving/braking? I've read that the Hawk HPS isn't that great...

My experience on 2 pads you listed on our local track:

StopTech: 1.5 laps, severe fading and no bueno
Ferodo 2500 (Ok, well I used Project Mu 800, same category): 3 laps, faded
Carbotech XP10: used by many locals here, loud AF, no direct experience

@Smurfette

Also checkout Winmax W2 or W3 for street/hpde - AutoX/Track duty.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68486

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65164

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71961

While both compounds you listed are very good, neither will hold up to a 20 minute session when the BRZ/FRS is driven at its limit. They will likely be safe, but performance will degrade. At a minimum you will need ducts and good fluid.
If you are not driving the car at its limit, you may be able to get away with using either of the two compounds you asked about.

Perhaps I can help with your application? :)

My student at this track day has a 2500lb Integra GSR, similar power to our cars, last years BFG Rival tires, and he had a fresh set of Hawk Street/Race compound, (these are a DTC-30 pad redesigned for the street to operate at lower temp), and I was very impressed with his pads. A few times I thought he pushed the limits on the brake zones, but those pads stopped us just fine. He did get some 'shake' in the steering wheel, but I imagine he just had warped rotors from doing a track day on the same rotors the previous year. He had Hawk HP+ on the car the previous year, and he said those were not up to the task of Mid Ohio. He was very happy with the new Hawk Street/Race compound. That's my recommendation.


A break down of the Hawk compounds that most common:
Hawk ceramic - For old people who don't want to hear or see brake dust....ever
Hawk HPS - basic OEM upgrade, good for autocross/street
Hawk HP+ - dedicated autocross pad, great initial bite, maybe suitable for light track use
Hawk Street/Race - a DTC-30 compound with lower operating tempatures for the street. Designed to not make your ABS go crazy, up for track day usage. Will dust, and will make noise on the street.
Hawk DT60's - Dedicated road racing pad. Requires a bit of heat to work, should not fade, track use only.
Hawk DTC70 - Same as above, but better suited for heavy cars (3000lbs+), and more than capable of endurance racing.

If the bolded part above is your goal, definitely go with the XP10's.

Stoptech's are good value IMO, but if you're running at the typical intermediate/solo pace (or faster), you will need to back off after 3-4 laps.

I haven't tried DS2500's, but they're supposed to be comparable to PMU HC+800's, which I've run and was not impressed by at all.

I'm currently using XP10's up front and love them. A little noisy on the street though.

I can kill Stoptech in a lap if necessary just to demonstrate a point. DS2500 is decent but that's good for 2-3 laps. XP10 will last for intermediate track drivers. :)

for the reference, I've used all of the pads that you listed and hated all of them ..
the thing is there is no "best pad" in general, but there are good pads for the specific type of tire and often times people (including me) mismatch the tires with brake pads..

Like others mentioned above Stoptech will fade at the track and PSS tires are only good for a couple of laps and start feeling greasy after that..

If I were you, I would match Raybestos ST43s with a bit more aggressive tires such as RS3s or Direzza ZIIs for multiple reasons (consistency and cost being the most important ones), there is a good reason most track junkies call them "magic pads" :) ..

I have been using them for a while and recently got a ST47/ST45 combo to match my Z214s as I believe I can get away with a more aggressive initial bite and there's still room for the sticky R comps.. I also didn't have any issues use them on the street (summer use) ..they're surprisingly not harsh on the rotors as much as other race pads (still not a big deal since we can get centrics for $35 a piece I think, lol)

for mild track use and/or wet, PSS would still work of course (that's what I am getting for my street setup and wet track days, in case it starts raining on the event) but they're not ideal, IMO

I really liked the XP12s for its "OEM-like" feedback and the noise levels but the problem was the pad life, I stilll destroyed them quickly though :D , that might also have to do with the power levels of the car and it (or even the XP10s) may last longer for an NA car

Hawk HP+ pads chew on the rotors pretty quickly and DTC60 and DTC70s are known by their corrosive dust that hurts both paint and the wheels and even harsher on rotors than any other pads..I have no experience on Auto-X so they might work just fine :)
if they were a bit more practical I could've considered using them as well, since Tirerack stocks them most of the time and people seem to like them ..

I run the DS2500 with Stoptech slotted rotors and have not had a single problem, zero fade. I also run Motul fluid and have stainless brake lines. The car has run numerous days at different tracks with zero issues with that setup.

@CSG_David, I would go to you, but I'm in San Francisco!

Thanks for the great advice. Sounds like the XP10 could be a good bet. I hear they eat the rotors though, but I can just replace them with Centrics when they do? Where is the best place to get the XP10?

I've done between a dozen and two dozen track days, done racing school, so advanced intermediate? It's been about 2 years since I last went to the track, and I am tempted to get the StopTechs because they are cheap, but I would be very :( if I got brake fade and had to end early.

Eventually may look at upgrading to ST43 and more aggressive tires. Maybe some SS brake lines, SSR 18" if I go BBK, etc.

How important is it that I upgrade to SS brake lines, and do you guys have any recommendations? Planning on running Motul RBF 600. It's what I have now, but I want to do a flush.

I wouldn't get the SS brake lines unless I had to... especially on a newer car, I would, instead, periodically check the lines because when they fail they just fail, with OEM lines you would be able to tell they start going bad.. if you're getting a BBK you will have to replace them though since they come with the kit

Has to do with heat. Raybestos are good pads too. The range of modulation is different of course. :thumbup:

You need a BBK.

Reading this thread I can't help but wonder if you're looking for the wrong thing out of your brake pads. Street pads aren't designed to hold up to a track day at full speed. Anything that's considered a street performance pad is a lot better for autocross than HPDE. You can get close with street pads if you drive around it but it's still the same problem of trying to fit a square peg through a round hole.

I'm in a similar boat but DD my car everyday.

I'm very happy with my XP10's and at this point would never bother with a hybrid pad, anything that claims to be streetable is not suitable for the track on this car for me driving. Or at least that's what I believe at this point.

Planning on picking up the TRD brake pads for the street when I wear through my stock pads and continuing to swap back and forth for DD or events. It's a 45 minute job for me to swap brake pads solo with just hand tools and a floor jack.

As for the rotors I've been on the XP10's for the past 3 weeks out of laziness and they've done great, 2x track days on them couple thousand DD miles ~40 AutoX runs and my rotors are within 1mm of factory fresh. There's a guy who's been competitively autocrossing his car for 2+ years still on factory rotors at 100k miles, the engine gave out first...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16365

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...96&postcount=3

Whatever you decide, keep an eye on things, check up before and after events and nothing should take you by surprise, car is pretty communicative and will let you know if you are overdoing it. And the more I see the more I'm convinced to not waste time with hybrid pads, they will always compromise in favor of street and as you yourself have said the end goal is to enjoy your track session worry free.

Spending $200+ on track time and loosing out because you didn't spend the extra $100-$200 split up over 4+ events doesn't add up.

Edit: XP10's for me get very noisy on the street unless they get up to temperature regularly (and I'm not going to get aggressive in traffic so they will continue to be loud when DD'd for me) and there is a significant amount of dust, other than that cold bite is great and my rotors have tons of life left.

maybe :) I'll see how the ST47/ST45 will do and if it doesn't work I will probably get some Stoptechs down the road

I still find the XP10s a bit weak but it might be just fine with a street tire, RS3s, Direzza ZIIs etc.. like I said before, there is no wrong tire/pad combo but rather there is mismatched tire/pad combo.. maybe if I tried the XP10s with something a little less aggressive than NT01s, I'd be just happy but it also depends on your driving style or your modulation (like @CSG David mentioned above), that is something that I've been working on for years :D

I have to say I didn't have a single issue with running ST43s on the street with this car, . , in fact I was too lazy and drove the car with ST43s everyday :) they're a little bit noisy and leave dust but didn't hurt my rotors so I just drove to the track with the same set still using them on the street and they keep going , I am not sure if it would make the ST43s hybrid pad though,I think it all depends on the car...with the Vette it was a total nightmare and even shameful at times when driving in plazas or downtown area , that look on people's faces :D..it was that loud.

@glamcem
Definitely a style/skill thing keeping my XP10's from being exceeded (4x track days total experience), I believe some people can absolutely kill them, never meant to imply that they were foolproof.

Since I'm super cheap (and hopefully not penny wise, pound foolish :bonk:), I ordered the StopTechs. The previous owner used them at Laguna, which is more brake intensive than Thunderhill's 5 mile, and didn't experience any fade. I'll be learning the car, track, getting back into track shape so I don't anticipate killing the pads...at least I hope not!

I'll probably go with Ferodo the next time, work my way to CarboTech, and the BBK and dedicated track pads...along with upgrading tires, etc. Excited to get back out there!

don't get me wrong but it's a very bad idea IMO, don't ever go super cheap when it comes to brakes or tires since those are the two most critical things that help you save you and your car when you need them.. our cars are not that cheap ;) you may at least consider getting XP10s to use with your PSS like @strat61caster mentioned ...with XP10s I don't think you would experience "ICE MODE"

you'd at least be able to use your brakes, fading brakes may be a lot dangerous than over heating your tires ..better safe than sorry

You're giving me second thoughts! Yeah, brakes are definitely important. The StopTechs have already shipped, but I'll continuing thinking about it...literally going in circles! :thanks:

Stoptechs are great street pads IMO, I will most likely get another set for street :)

Yeah I think getting the Stoptechs was a mistake to be honest. It sounds like we've got roughly the same level of experience (15+ track days, intermediate/advanced HPDE) and for me, the Stoptechs faded after a few laps. I think you're probably going to have the same issue.

As long as you don't mind backing off every few laps, it's somewhat manageable, but I would highly recommend XP10 or even XP12-level pads.

I would use Project MU performance pads, a little pricy and upgrade your rotors to slotted to keep them running cooler.


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What's the best place to buy XP10's from?

I got mine from Forged Performance since they are on the east coast (closer to me) and I needed them shipped quickly for a track event. Good price and fast shipping.

That said, I like supporting @CSG_Mike when I can. He's a great resource for the forum and does a lot of "work" ;) testing products on the track for this platform. Very knowledgeable/friendly guy.

@DarkSunrise got it right: www.counterspacegarage.com Damn good guys!

Just to follow-up, I ended up going with the StopTechs (with Motol 600 RBF) and they have been great for the last 2 track days. This may be because I'm not driving/braking hard enough (~4:08 lap time at Thunderhill) or since it's a 5 mile track there's a lot of cooling off time.

Out of curiosity, is that running the full West track? When I went for the first time last weekend they added a bypass and removed turns 8W-9W-10W basically making a straight between 7W and 1W (see this map)

Comparing times at Thill is getting more and more difficult with how many configurations they can run... Both times I went going up the hill at 5E was the default, but I've seen some vids of people bypassing it...

Glad to hear the stoptechs are working for you! :cheers:

Edit: best video I've seen is a guy in a relatively stock RX-8 running ~3:51 or thereabouts that talks through each corner, but that was going through every corner so my time isn't comparable to that.

As you get faster, you'll absolutely need to step up pads; the Stoptech compound is a street formulation.

I was running the bypass on 5E and 7-1W. No doubt I am slow, but I'm smooooth. :)

Yep! Eventually I will upgrade, but I think the StopTechs were a good start!

I have bunch of brand new and used pads and rotors up for sale, for those who might be interested (as well as many other parts for a track build), since I will soon trade my car for a midsize SUV, I decided to convert it to stock,..
Please see my sale threads or contact me if interested ;)

There's one thing you should know before approaching the brakes on this car. The BRZ/FRS KILLS the front brakes in terms of heat. It's really kinda ridiculous for its weight and speed(or lack thereof), but I would throw the best you can find at the front. I've hear just going for a sprint BBK is the best option, and then the rears are pretty simple to upgrade. Oh, and better fluid is a must. I'm gunna run Motul 600. Can't really go wrong with it. Remember, this isn't a Porsche...not even close...

Tracked Porsches kill brakes even worse...

Do stock Porsche's, such as the Cayman S, require much upgrading to the brakes for track use? Or are they well-equipped? I'd assume pads at least..
I ask because I am considering one.