What is Automotive Luxury today?
 

So, I know in the 90's, a Mercedes was way ahead of a Honda but today I'm starting to get confused on what is luxury anymore?

Why are people paying more of BMW, Merc etc when they are unreliable (from experience) and they don't seem to offer that much anymore in regards of leading the industry.....maybe I'm blind but check this out.

I don't know about you guys, but that Mazda interior looks no worse than the BMW interior for half the price and i bet the mazda has better reliability.

Mazda Interior
http://s4.postimg.org/lc2qb0pot/2016...erior_view.jpg

BMW Interior
http://s4.postimg.org/d94jzp53h/2015...t_interior.jpg

Looking at an interior in pics and living with one are very different things.

Refinement, material quality and build quality are all very important things that you can't get out of a picture. Real metal and wood instead of plastic, better leather, quality soft touch materials, sound insulation, etc.

Gadgets is not the same as luxury. I won't deny that the entry level interiors have come a long way, but there's still a gap.

I don't agree, in my bmw 335i coupe executive package model that cost $70,000 had leather peeling off in the left hand rest and the steering wheel had material peeling off. So i don't agree about the quality being better.

Also it had horrible sound insulation in the windows and you could always hear wind noise.

So far my accord is proving that you can buy a car for $30,000 and have the same quality or better.

Okay okay...the leather isn't as soft...but nothing is peeling and the insulation is perfect.

Your paying for a badge...i can't believe some people still try to fight that and say the "quality" is better.

To the average person a car is all about the BADGE. People want to tell someone "I drive a BMW" and for the other person to think "ooooo, you are doing well." BMW had instilled a mental prestige to their company that says "I make money" and "I am elite". Mazda is not a luxury car in the general public's eyes. The person that has more knowledge of cars, or is thrifty will know the difference between a badge and luxury.

One word: branding.
The wife would like a Louis Vuitton handbag. It is made of leather the same as other handbags but it costs a truckload for the same product that can be had at a small fraction of the price. Why? Branding. One isn't buying just a handbag, one is buying the label.

@Takumi788 mentioned BMW. What's the image associated with BMW. I think it is German engineering, German quality which is kind of ironic given that yes, BMW AG is based in Germany but has manufacturing or assembly plants in Brazil, China, Egypt, India, Indonesia, Kaliningrad, Mexico, South Africa, USA.
They have design studios in UK,USA,China,Germany.

So when some punter buys their "German" car they don't know that it could have spent its entire life, from design to production, without touching German soil.

I agree completely.

Real wood. Leather. Aluminum. Stainless steel.
Good materials, IF MAINTAINED PROPERLY only get better with age and use. Man made materials like plastic, rubber and vinyl will never be as nice as the day they were made, they have a lifespan, and they're disposable.

We're not talking about branding here. Anyone can build a luxurious car with beautiful materials, it would be priced accordingly though. I think that everyone is capable of recognizing good quality, but few of us are willing to pay for it. Some of us are tricked by bonded leather and textured plastics, but in the end you get what you pay for.

....and I bought a Scion. :D

Judging from the pictures, the BMW interior looks nicer. But I do think the gap has closed significantly between midsize sedans and entry level luxury cars.

*raises hand*
I beg to differ just a bit.
Expectation can/does influence our perception.
Branding is all about influencing our decision making. Low end Tag watches for example. Mass produced using off the shelf movements but Tag spends something like 30% of their money on advertising telling us what great watches they are. That is, re-inforcing the image of sophistication.
I love the results of this: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...om-bad/247240/

Whether or not anyone would BUY a product without the right branding is a different matter. I only said that anyone is capable of building good quality.

The material quality is way nicer on prestige brands. Mazda in real life is noticeably way cheaper quality especially. Tin can doors, far less isolation from the exterior, no comparison. Of all brands Mazda probably look the best in the brochure and feel the cheapest in driving. Even the proportions of their mock luxury details are scaled way down. Economy cars with copied luxury car shapes, that's just about it for the interior. And on the exterior there are huge visible differences. My mom drives a CLA with the AMG esthetic package. The car looks sophisticated and mature for a Merc "economy" car. Basically it's styled like a scaled down CLS. Sorry but there's no Japanese cars shy of Lexus that come close in that segment. And for an older person the new IS has a way too complicated control system.

Thats why i bought a Subaru and not a Scion. #Luxury #AllAboutTheBadge

Mazda has stepped up their game and is putting pressure on the german automakers with their interior. Although some of it is cheap in some areas (roof and rear seats on the sides with plastic) they have features like the popped up display to keep your eyes on the road and be able to see the screen without fiddling around down below and the control knob behind the shifter which lets you still be focused on the road.

The active display that pops up can be gimmicky to some, but I feel like I'm in a high tech car personally (I work in IT so that kind of stuff is exciting) telling me about my radar cruise, current speed, navigation directions, etc.

A fully loaded Mazda 3 S Grand Touring with the Tech package is about $27,500. This includes radar cruise, lane departure. After driving one, it's a pretty amazing car for the price. May be lacking in the power department, but I'll take this car over a BMW any day. The feel of it is really nice and you feel like you are driving a much higher quality car, and probably a way more reliable car over a BMW. You're out of your damn mind if you're driving a BMW outside of a warranty.

The one problem I do have with the Mazda though is the price is hard to get down. Not too many incentives, and they can't deeply discount like Toyota/Honda can.

Automotive Luxury is:

1: Status symbol. Lots of MB/BMW folks I know refuse to own one past the warranty period and complain about how often warranty work needs to be done during that period. But the reasons for ownership aren't about the car or build quality. Many owners are leasing or they are short term purchases (warranty period).

2: Gadgets. 18 way adjustable, heated and air conditioned seats, navigation, adaptive cruise control, 48 airbags, connectivity, doors that close themselves, creature comforts, blah blah blah.

3: Actual freakin' build quality. Engineering that stands the test of time, real quality materials, quiet interior, resale value, reliable well past warranty period, ride quality, ergonomic design, efficiency w/ power, safety features, etc.

I would rock a $32k optioned-out Mazda 6 (with a manual) vs anything twice that from BMW/MB/Audi.

Well, at least that's my take on it.

I looked into purchasing a used Audi S4 maybe 10 years ago. At that time it was probably when mainstream interior materials were first getting higher in quality and plastics were softer to the touch per say. Imo, it seems that after years and years of wear, the cheaper cars with more hard plasticky interiors age better.


Have not ever done it before, but it must be the most amazing feeling to have that brand new luxury car roll straight out of the dealership. It is quite stimulatory, memory-wise, to see full-size luxury sedans available for under 10g's in this day and age.

Hate to say it, but the rich don't think twice (or possibly even once) about reliability. Some own a fleet of ultraluxe barges and hypercars that fill their monthly motoring rotations. They have slaves to worry about maintenance (and even driving). If something breaks, it's simply not their problem.

The rest of us buy the amenities that matter most to us because that's what we can afford. We carefully consider options packages, brands and perceived reliability because we have to. Fancy paint, leather interiors, brand perception, super cheap maintenance and relatively high performance are all things we don't need, so we luxuriate in them. We have to budget out our luxury.

automotive luxury to me is not entry level or even mid level MB/BMW/Audi's... Sure, you get the badge but the cars are not that luxurious to me.

S-class, 7series, A8, Bentleys, Rolls Royce..etc where comfort and amenities come first is automotive luxury.

I somewhat agree with you that entry level luxury cars aren't exactly luxurious but more about the badge.


Proof? Last summer, Reuters reported and examined the over-production of new vehicles in Europe. It was claimed that a 30,000Euro BMW sport utility compact could be had for 30% off because of excess inventory. A few things come to mind.


Could vehicles theoretically selling for 100g's sell at 30% percent off?


Could this be a business case viable to change "luxury" car buyer's purchase decision?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NWFRS
We're not talking about branding here.
*raises hand*
I beg to differ just a bit.
Expectation can/does influence our perception.
Branding is all about influencing our decision making. Low end Tag watches for example. Mass produced using off the shelf movements but Tag spends something like 30% of their money on advertising telling us what great watches they are. That is, re-inforcing the image of sophistication.
I love the results of this: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/ar...om-bad/247240/

I bought a scion ad I have a Tag! [explodes] that being said my Timex keeps better time but I've never seen anyone with my watch and I've seen multiple people with the same exact Rolex so... I dunno. It's a mixture of quality, marketing, BS, and pixie dust I think.

What is "luxury". Considering how a large percentage of the human race lives, if you have indoor plumbing and access to sanitary drinking water, you live a life of luxury.

Luxury is an interesting concept, as it's meaningless in the absence of a qualifying comparison.

BMW is a luxury car brand. As much as I'd like to get another bimmer one day, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth because of another automobile website. Can recall being indiscriminately and viciously attacked by some bmw d-bag online; interestingly who still lives in their parent's basement.


Back with the entry-level BMW's. Looking at it optimistically, last summer would have been a great time for some kind of diver to buy their lover a nice luxury gift!

Lexus, Infinity, Lincoln, BMW, AUDI

Now if you ask my students:

Bugatti Veyron
McLaren
Lamborghini


...LOL I say $50k+ is luxury with quiet ride inside and I mean quiet. Anyway, cars that require dealer for tune-up/special tool, roomy and usually big. That's just me.

My buddy says, "...luxury?... your car (my FRS), a Civic, a Hyundai Equus, basically anything over $20k that I can't afford." hahahahahah

Simple: ride in two different cars, and measure your heart rate in each. Whichever reading was lower took place in the more luxurious car.

Diamond stitching + Lexus = Luxury

Taste vary. ^^^That is yuck to me!

Never thought BMW interiors were ever much good, but MB interiors are pretty nice, the leather accents and wood bits make it quite pleasant. Same with Lexus, they don't have many gadgets but the nicely textured plastic panels, metal trim bits and leather seats do add something. Or Porsche, you have to pay tons of money to get true leather but their fake leather feels great, the buttons have a nice solid feel, etc.

I think it's hard to tell at first glance, but once you settle into the car and start using it for a bit you notice these things. I thought a Limited BRZ had a nice luxurious interior when I first stepped into one (it is, compared to my MR2). 1 hour into playing around with and driving one I realized the AC controls looked okay but if you looked closer they're still kind of ugly, they feel loose and wiggly, some of the textures in the interior just look odd (esp. the "space invaders" crap), the seats are just okay, etc. Then I bought an FR-S and discovered the rattling window switches, rattling I still can't explain coming from the trunk, rattling rear seat latch (which is surprisingly annoying to fix), rattling seat adjustment lever, etc.

It is interesting to look at what is happening to the mainstream manufacturers in Europe vs the "luxury" manufacturers. You can see the same thing just starting to happen in NA. The luxury brands (mostly BMW and MB) have started to outsell the mainstream brands in the middle market. The market share of Ford, GM (Opel, Vauxhall), etc., in the mid-size sedan / wagon class have tanked. The 3-series/C-class were subtly moved down market (e.g. relatively cheaper interior materials) to gain market share, though now that they have won loyal new owners they are starting to move up again. The mainstream manufacturers are caught between a rock and a hard place, having lost market share in their most profitable segment. They have to invest heavily in new product and new tech to stay in the middle market game but at lower than traditional volumes and with lower margins than BMW or MB. They are increasingly focussing on smaller cars but BMW (2-series, Mini) and MB (CLA/A/B class, even Smart) are playing there too. None of the mainstream manufacturers have been successful in the higher end markets (badge snobbery) where the margins can be much bigger.

I think the main reasons this isn't a bigger issue in NA are the desire for larger vehicles in any given class (SUVs, pickups, sedans and even CUVs) and maybe the remnants of US xenophobia. (I might be overstating that).

Train. :lol:

70k for a 3 series????? did it come with 3 years worth of gas??

Maintenance and a good undercover garage protecting from the elements is paramount. I've seen some old A6's that could be in shameful condition because of this.


I went a few months ago contemplating the new Mustang. Sitting in that boat, the luxury features offered made it fathomable to do. The dealer told me the interior was made of agricultural scraps. He smelled bad so now I'm still stuck with my Scion.


Did some research and wouldn't mind seeing more cars made of soy(I'm a believer that soy is a poison if the subject doesn't even enjoy it from the mouth), coconuts and used chopsticks. Could these materials hold up over time from humidity and heat? If so, it be weird to see high-end luxury brands incorporate these fibres into product lines over time.

Close enough, maybe you heard it, Mazda is doing some bio-plastic stuff... So not that crazy of an idea :).

This is a very interesting topic, I feel there was a big effort and a lot of emphasis done lately by manufacturers to make interiors "look" luxury, but they don't feel or wear like luxury.

I've said it before and will say it again; I have always liked the old, old Landcruisers.


Not sure if you're familiar with the show, Pimp my Ride; but if that Landcruiser is well maintained, I would easily trade my 86 for it. I wouldn't even mind front loading some funds into that thing after the sale either.

He's Canadian, cars are more expensive here. My parents paid $65k for their new 335 coupe in 2007.

Your current Accord is barely two years old at this point. Your 335 however sounds like you suffer from oily skin. The only time we ever see peeling is from people with oily skin (PS I work for BMW.), it's RARE that you'll see the stitching coming apart for whatever reason.... but stranger things have happened.

Now having worked for Non-highline brands and experiencing their perception of luxury vs currently working for an actual luxury brand and dealing with their cars it boils down to build quality and materials used. No matter what you do hard plastics and imitation or lesser quality leather will never match up to the better materials used in luxury car comfort packages (I say packages because base model luxury is significantly worse than lowerline luxury. At that point you're definitely just paying for a badge and refined suspension... at least in BMW's case). In addition to this smaller things are taken into account at such a miniscule level you'd be baffled to see how much they pay attention to/take into account when building these luxury vehicles. Even something as simple as noting the natural seating position of most drivers to offer some amenity or piece of tech that would lessen stress when behind the wheel; stress the driver might not have even known was there but definitely notices when it wasn't.
I hear, "there's something about this car that I can't put my finger on.... but it's definitely one of the best cars I've ever owned" all day long. That is your red flag for some small detail the engineers took notice of and changed that the driver unknowingly appreciated.

If you don't believe me drive the new F30 3 series or F32 4 series. You may not appreciate the synthetic road feel offered by the Electric power steering (it becomes tolerable in the sport line models which do a purposefully better job at not numbing the road), but you'll definitely notice that it's nothing to bat an eye at in terms of performance and general enjoyment.



Sounds like I should own one right? Especially working for them....
Trust me I would.... but their still bloody expensive to own out of warranty and even more expensive to modify correctly. You probably know that already having owned an E9X 335i. PS. no more issues with the HPFP's (high pressure fuel pumps); seems the biggest contributor to that was the amount of ethanol we use in our fuel and the quality gas we get here in the states/canada. They weren't having those issues in Europe... at least not on the same scale we were. On a whole the new F3X's are much more well behaved.




I can't speak much for Audi, Mercedes, Acura, Infinity, Lincoln and Cadillac having never worked closely with them; but can only assume it's roughly the same.

While I agree that looking and pics and living with an interior for years are completely different things I also think it's laughable to think that the German cars have better materials simply because they are german. My BMW has more interior shit that has gone wrong or worn out that any of my other cars. Everyone I know with modern German cars, except for Porsche, have as many problems with wear as I do in much newer cars because, IMO, the quality has gone DOWN not up in the last decade or so. VAG is just a complete joke with it comes to quality interiors after they are 3 years old. Soft touch shit just falls off. Headliners fall down, plastic breaks.


They feel great on the show room floor though.

You really hear that much negativity about German luxury cars? Their Baseline crap is usually just that.... crap. But the executive, comfort and sport packages are pretty up there in quality...
The M-line and individual line (especially the individual) are beyond rediculous as far quality though.

It's more that they use real wood, real carbon fiber, real brushed aluminum and so on so forth. Ever notice how non-existent play is in things as minute as the HVAC buttons? The only time we usually end up having to replace non-broken ones is because things like the writing will fade over time (or faster depending on the owner)

Of all of the M car owners I know, all but those with the newest models complain about various issues with the interiors. The newest ones are just too new.

But hell I'd rather hear about interior wear than subframe cracks.. oh wait.. they do that too.. or rods installed backwards.. oh shit, that was BMW, an M3 at that, too.

Oh well. :)

I like driving my M3 and the others I've driven (except for the pig E46s) but I won't even follow the fanboy logic into thinking that they are actually well built cars. It's not so much the engineering, it's the completely shit components/materials that are used. Well except for those subframe tearouts, shock tower tears, control arm mount tears, etc... that's engineering. And I wouldn't mind if they could find a way to avoid using that dumb flexdisc, it is possible with a little effort spent on balancing and engineering. Maybe those aren't used on the newest ones though, haven't gotten under one as I refuse to help owners of new ones with car work. Some of the decisions on the 4.0 V8 design in the 540s, etc are pretty damn retarded also.


For BMW, the older and lower series you go the better off you are IMO.


MB I honestly don't know anyone with a modern one. I don't hang out with many that would buy one due to the transmission. VAG are just terrible. I can't think of a single redeeming quality. P-Cars have their issues also of course and the same "buy older" is true with them like BMW unless you don't mind being one of the early, and therefore expensive, beta testers.

http://pickupevolution.com/wp-conten...t_girl_car.jpg

this is automotive luxury

Takes you right back to the cost of maintenance issues though!

Have no fear Canadian kids! Move and cross border to your grandparents house rent free! Minimum wage is like 20 bucks an hour! That's Ferrari territory if room and board is at no charge!!

A 3-series is not a luxury car, nor is the A4. The 5-series and up are luxury cars. For Mercedes, it's E-class and up. Quietness, ride quality, and comfort. It's the kind of think you don't notice when you get in. You notice it when you get into a non-luxury car. Things like more sophisticated door seals, more layers of lamination in the glass, liquid-filled bushings, active antiroll bars, more adjustable seats with power every which way, memory for all those settings, a seat that slides away from the steering wheel that moves up and away, making getting into the car much easier, comfort six hours into a trip, a much better stereo, little or no noise from outside, better crash protection (on average), prettier materials, little nets here and there to hold your stuff, a little flashlight for when you have to change a flat in the dark, exterior lights to make getting out and in easier in the dark, interior lights in all the nooks and crannies but without that blinding dome light, plush and soft floor materials, no exposed bits, exterior trim that doesn't brake, little tie downs in the trunk, little hatches here and there to store stuff, under-body sound damping so you don't hear every pebble...

Oh, and then there's the dealer experience. It's not even close. Not by a million miles.

Sure, you can get a VW in leather, but it's still a VW. You can base an Audi on the same chassis, but it's lipstick on a pig. Lexus doesn't get decent until the G series. The is series is blah for luxury. Fun to drive, though. Porsche? The 996 feels like an 80s Honda with leather. The 997 is decent but nothing to write home about. After that, I haven't sad in one. CTS? The 1st gen was made of glue and shit. The 2nd gen was OK. Haven't looked at the current gen because, well, I don't believe that third time is the charm.

But how do I really feel?