Buying used FRS tomorrow.. need some advice.
 

So i'm buying a used 2013 FRS tomorrow and everyone keeps telling me to negotiate and haggle with the price. Only thing is the car listed is cheaper then the KBB price so.. how do you even negotiate a car that is ALREADY cheaper then the KBB listed price.

Anyways for more information, the FRS i'm looking at is around $21,000 but KBB says it's worth $21,500. Any help is appreciated, thanks.

First of all you need to ask yourself (and them) "Why is it under KBB?" to start with.
If the answer is to just sell fast then you probably can't negotiate. Still make the attempt though.
If high miles, damaged, dead skunk stuck in exhaust, etc then you may be able to bargain with them.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...84995367ab.jpg

Haggling for the sake of haggling can make for a negative experience. When I bought mine used back in May, I had done tons of research and shopping, and I knew the price of the car was fair, and it was a great deal compared with some others that were for sale at other dealers, especially since mine had only 17K miles on it, and most others had 30K+. It was also a color I loved, and was in flawless condition.

In the end, what I negotiated on was what they gave me for my trade. I had a number in my head I wanted for my trade going in, and they initially offered less...did some haggling, and they came up to the number I wanted, so I was very happy with the deal I got. Granted, my sales guy was phenomenal - I bought my car at a BMW dealership, so the service overall was stellar - but I think you can have a good experience if you go in with the right attitude.

Many people go into the car buying experience ready for a fight, and it makes the process very ugly. But if you've done your research, you know what a fair price is for the car you want, know what you CAN pay, and have an idea of trade in value and interest rate going in, it doesn't have to be such a hostile experience. You also have to be prepared to walk away without the car if you can't get to a win-win deal, and that's the part many people have a hard time with. The sales guys are in the business to make money - dealerships aren't non-profit organizations...but that doesn't mean you have to get screwed.

In the end stop worrying about what every is telling you to do, and do what works best for you and your personal financial situation.

Just curious, how many miles are on it?

Hoooray, I have support on my long standing statement!

Think about it. Someone traded in this car to the dealer most likely for $16-18K, and KBB, while a guide, is not foolproof because price can vary by region and supply and demand. Most dealers usually target about $4K profit on their used cars.

I would bet that you still have at least $1K in play with that number. It just comes down to whether or not you want to negotiate and play the game or not. You don't have to be a ****, you can be very professional and perhaps you can simply negotiate in other things like accessories and/or maintenance in with the deal. I typically would never take the dealers first offer just as I would expect they may not want my lowest offer. It's called negotiation and, if done professionally, nobody should have hurt feelings. Car salesman and dealers are trained to do this (negotiate) and they do it every single day.

Here is all the information on it: http://www.dunningtoyota.com/certifi...8109e3faf3.htm ($20,999) (21,384 miles)

KBB price: http://www.kbb.com/scion/fr-s/2013-s...&pricetype=cpo ($22,900)

Now the only thing that is fishy to me is it has the Toyota Badge instead of the Scion. The positive is it has a pristine CarFax, low mileage, and from what I can tell pretty much perfect condition. It is also Certified Pre-Owned which is good. Something is naggling me though because how can a good car like this be listed $2000 less then KBB value?

Like said by somebody else your area may just have a bunch and the value is lower there. KBB is an average which of course means there are just as many below as above the "normal" price.
Looks like a good deal to me and don't sweat the rebadge since there are 1,000s of them that have had it done.

Cool. I actually dig the Scion logo a bit more but the Toyota badge is okay. Makes me look like a dirty hipster though. :sigh:

Your pic is exactly what popped into my head lol

Who cares about the KBB price?

Relatively low price with miles to match, great condition... sounds like an awesome deal to me!

Inspect the car yourself when you get there. If you can get a lower price than what is shown, more points to you!

I would've bought used but couldn't take the idea of buying someone's sloppy seconds, especially as my first car purchase.

I come from two different views on this topic. I've been on both sides of the table on this.

Salesperson Side - There is definitely always wiggle room on cars. If the customer is financing with one of our banks then the easiest way to get the price down is by negotiating the monthly payment. Never tell them how much you're hoping to pay a month. If your credit is good and they come back with a $400 a month payment just remember that a grand is about $20 a month. (Of course there are more variables to this so keep that in mind.) Tell them you can't swing it if it's $400 a month. Ask if they can try to get it down to about $360-$380 a month without extending the loan term. They'll bring down the price for you without having to negotiate what the 'value' of the car is. It's hard to justify telling the salesperson why you think the car should be $19k instead of its sticker of $21k (reasonably anyway without saying stuff like "I just FEEL like it's not worth $21k.) Especially if other cars on the market are going above those going rates.

Buyer Side - When purchasing a used vehicle it is now a "unique" vehicle. It's going to be almost impossible for you to find the same type of vehicle with the same amount of miles with the exact color that you want. Sure you can walk away from this deal and say I'll go look for a cheaper price somewhere else and get a different color or much higher miles or maybe a different trim level. But in the end if THIS is the car that you want and you're WILLING to pay this price then you should get it. My wife is a very wise woman and she explains things to me in the simplest of terms and is able to help me quantify why I should do or not do certain things. She says "If it's the car you want and you truly love it, then you should will be willing to pay for it. If you get a car that you don't want then you'll hate transferring that money even more every month."

IMO, just do it. Go in, tell them that you want that car, get your shit sorted money-wise and drive away with a smile on your face. Don't look at it as the dealer getting something from you but you getting something for yourself.

Wait, the Toyota badge makes you look like a hipster???

I am actually planning on buying it with straight cash, no finance - thank God. As a former salesman, would you say paying in cash is favorable or un-favorable? Is cash a negotioable tool, as in, would they lower the price of the vehicle if someone pay's all in cash?

Prius

https://odinslounge.files.wordpress....ster.jpg?w=425

I think so. It's all good though, because 99.9999% of the people out there probably couldn't give a flying hoot. Although it might make a nice conversation piece, especially people unfamiliar cars, they'll be like "Oh shit man, I didn't know Toyota's made something like this."

BTW this forum rocks! People actually respond quickly here unlike some of the other forums I visit. Also, what is this "Thank you" shenanigan's I keep seeing and how do I do it?

I would try for $19.5k. Depending on your APR and if you don't drive much maybe leasing a 2016 would be a good choice since you get full warantee. Since you're from Michigan like myself insurance is crazy on the FRS and almost $2000 per year for me. The BRZ my insurance was quoted like $1600. No idea why.

In my experience it doesn't really matter if someone is paying in cash or credit but you will be simplifying the purchasing process a million times over. The dealer, salesman and the finance manager get kickbacks from the banks for a finder's fee so they actually make more money from you financing through them (just FYI.)

If you're going all cash then try to bring some ammo with you and be reasonable and logical. Bring in the KBB on a car that is the trade in on the vehicle and say "This is probably what you guys paid for it." Then add in some detail moneys and fees (Good detail is about $250 - $300 and some other random fees for title transfers and such) then ask them to meet you halfway so that they can make a little bit of money and you get to save a little bit of money too. High volume dealers care more about moving vehicles rather than making lots of money on each one. Be honest and straightforward with your salesperson and ask them if they prefer to move a lot of cars every month on 'mini-deals'. Mini-deals are the minimum commissions they can possibly make on a car sale and usually equate, depending on dealership policies which vary, to $50 a vehicle up to $200 a vehicle.

Also print out a sheet for private party buy and some examples of how much people are selling them private party. Explain to them that you could just as easily purchase a car from a private party and detail it yourself to meet the same quality as the one they're offering and that you'll probably be getting more for your money. The only thing that they can possibly say to justify the pricing difference then is if it's a CPO (Certified Pre-Owned) which comes with a very great extended warranty. CPO warranties typically add between $1k and $1500 on top of the price. But also remember most factory warranties are transferable and if you plan on hardcore modifying your car then a warranty is probably the least of your worries.

Use all of these points in your arguments and stand by your points of views. If they counter-act with dumb arguments such as "Well, we gotta keep the lights on." Then you counter with "Well, what about keeping my lights on at home?" Worst case scenario: You buy the car after a couple hours of negotiation saving you a couple hundred dollars. Best case scenario: You buy the car after a few minutes of negotiation saving you close to a thousand dollars.

Remember that their sales tactic is 'ABC: Always Be Closing'. What that means is that they are always closing down outs and arguments that you might have about paying a certain number. You can play this game with them as well and you have evidence (If you printed these papers and prepared arguments and brought them with you) to support what you say and by using logical arguments you shut down their reasons for charging you more.

Good luck! Hoped this helps!

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This was very helpful indeed, I have now printed off the KBB and the Black Book prices. Excuse me for my ignorance but what is "detail" money. I have never heard of this term before.

You're buying a Subaru at the end of the day.

Most car dealers would prefer you financing it through their bank cause they get a kick back. And then you can just pay of that loan that same month. I would just leave the cash vs. loan up to the dealer to see if you could get a little extra off the car (either way).

I bought my '13 with 25k miles for just about $19k. But I think the price was also low due to the previous owner doing tasteless mods so a lot of average car buyers didn't want to hassle changing them. At the time the next cheapest Twin was $23k.

I can agree with the guy above too about buying at a luxury car dealership. I bought mine which was a trade in at a Land Rover dealer. These guys are still sales people but they have an extreme customer service skills due to dealing with high end customers all the time.

If anything I'd think it's a little high priced given the mileage but it looks well taken care of so it's probably a fair price.

If anything it's lower based on region, there simply doesn't seem to be the same level of demand in the North and Middle of the country states like there is in the fair weather and more mountainous areas were there are plenty of twisty roads to take advantage of. Every once in awhile I'll see someone who can't unload a car for less than $18k that doesn't seem to have any consequential issues.

In the end if you walk away with a smile on your face doesn't matter what anyone else says, $21k for this car in 9/10 condition (-1 because someone else farted in the seat before you) is probably not something you'll regret.

Personally, I'd check out the tires and see how they've worn, any car can get dolled up but if it's still got the original tires you'll be able to tell how the previous owner drove it (front torn up at the track, rear worn down drifting, pristine from driving calmly as the salesman will ALWAYS claim or replaced already).

tip 1: don't look like as if you really want the car. act cool :party0030:

tip 2: when they ask what price range that you want to be in, dont tell em.

tip 3: intimidate them. mean mug em :mad0260:

tip 4: dont buy into that " thats the lowest i can go" pressure em

tip 5: dont work with the total price, work with the monthly payments. for
example: if the car payment is at 450 @ 5 years term. talk them down to 350 or lower. Most used dealership will do what it takes to make a sale.

tip 6: make sure that you don't get screwed over by the interest, If youre getting a great price for the car but youre paying it at %29.999 interest youre losing a lot of money in the long run. which goes back to tip 5. DONT negotiate the over price negotiate the monthly payments!! Since your monthly payment usually includes the interest.

tip 7: bring paper, pencil, and a calculator. MATH IS YOUR BEST FRIEND

tip 8: do a hundred mile search and compare the prices and mileage of each car. if you find a cheaper car, youll might be able to save even more!!!

tip 9: if you have transportation, you might be able to find a much better deal at within 200miles.

tip 10: Salesmen are only there for your money, they arent helping you at all. :bow: Haggle is your best friend. ask them to throw in some free goodies if they wont bring the price down. i got a free Volkswagen t-shirt, keychain, mug and a emergency kit after haggle the price down to an amazing deal.

Goodluck and best wishes! Don't rush if you feel like that you can do better with the price or that you can find a better deal. :popcorn:

Dont do this. If the price is right and the interest and terms are right the payments will be right.
Cause they can get you $350 monthly but you are paying for something like 8 years and still over paying for the car. Salesman always say "what payments were you looking at?" and "what if we can lower the payments by $xxx a month?"
The only way to have a lower payment is.. 1. lower the price of the car (which doesn't change the payments a lot unless its a huge drop in price / downpayment) 2. lower the interest rate. 3. increase the payment term (more years). So haggling over the payments is the assbackwards way to negotiate the price of a car.

You should look at the price and the interest outside that its just simple math to come up with payment cost. You first work on the cars price (if you want to haggle) and then you see what interest you're getting. If the price is fair and your interest rate/terms is good.. your payment will be good.

EDIT: The monthly payment is really the least important part of buying a car. Its the easy way to trick people into buying cars which is why dealers use it in negotiating. "we can get you driving out of here at only $325 a month" but they arent telling you the length of the loan or interest rate.

I have a 2013 Frs for sale if ya want to drive down to NC ;)

I'd make damn sure I knew about what other mods have been done to that car. I'd be highly suspicious of the previous owner after seeing the "T" on that car. Do they have maintenance records for the car? I'd have the dealer check for a tune as well.

KBB shows a suggested retail price of $21,862 and a fair purchase price of $21,021.

NADA shows a clean retail price of $20,900.

Just watch out for the bs dealer doc fee.

Man while all this is great information on buying a car, I dont think its that complicated. Figure out a price that you want to pay for the car. Go into the dealership and say, I will buy this car for x amount of dollars and no more. This is how much I am willing to purchase this car for period and you'll sign the paperwork today (that parts huge because they always want to sell the car that day). They can whine and grown and do all their sales techniques but at the end of the day you hold firm. They either A) sell it to you B) Don't. Chances are unless they have a huge amount of interest in that car or you low ball them they'll sell it to you.

I know this from experience because i got my white BRZ Premium 11,000 miles for 17,7 in South Dakota. Granted the demand there isnt what its like in say Cali or Florida. But thats what I did. I'll buy this car for this amount of money TODAY take it or leave it. Theres a lot of brz's and frs's around and dont get too emotional if one gets away from you.

Thats my .02, doesnt mean its the best way to do things it just the way i do things.

Cheers and good luck tomorrow!

As far as I can tell from the CarFax, no mods have been done to it. Besides the Toyota Badge. It is also a Scion (Toyota) CPO. I don't think Toyota would CPO a modded car. Just sayin'. You never know though. I will definitely ask the dealer though.

http://www.carfax.com/VehicleHistory...ZNAA12D2724925

Mods would likely have come off before they even brought it in.
Check engine covers for tool marks on the bolts and screws.
Check the braces around the rad for open holes, bolts not holding anything or brackets with nothing on them (could have had SC or turbo)
Check springs and struts to see if they have the same level of visible age and wear as everything else underneath (could have been lowered)
Check the windows for sticker residue. If you fog them with your breath in the "normal spots" people put stickers you could even possibly read what they were. (Stickers don't mean mods but are a good sign)
Check the exhaust especially the clamps to see if they have some rust or are all shiny new looking (just a cat back no big deal but if had a header and tune...)


Even if you find anything keep in mind that some guys that mod their cars take way better care of them then stock. But then there is the other side of that coin.

Id do compression test, look at all fluids cold and then drive it and test when hot. Lift it up and look for holes or cracks that could have been left by mods. Red line that smabtch a few times to test out for noises. Not abuse, just check it out under stress.

Ya because everybody has the equipment to do compression tests and lift it. And listening for noises on these things means nobody would ever buy one even new.

About $80 in equipment or less for compression test machine/kit...etc. I checked the underside of the last truck I bought by raising half of the truck over a sidewalk and driving on it so that there was a big enough space for me to get under it. Don't and Didn't need equipment to lift it. Found exhaust leak and masked gasket issues.

Like this but at more of an angle.

[IMG]http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg62/docmaureen/IMG_0359-001_zpsa7464***.jpg[/IMG]

Ask me what I do for a living. Go ahead... :)

UMMMMM sales maybe?
My wife is the Financing Manager for an RV dealership and comes home with stories every day about some costumer or other that wanted a $50K unit for $20K because they are "ripping people off". In fact they make about $2K mark up but people just won't believe them.
Same thing applies to cars. Since they cost so much people think there is massive mark up so the dealer should give them huge discounts.

Close...I'm a Revenue Manager for a large hotel chain. It's my job to help hotels maximize their revenue. Every day we come across situations where we'd like to remind our guests that hotels aren't non-profit organizations....same thing applies in other industries.

ah forgot to clarify that, i meant at the same terms as the 450 @ 5 years when paying the 350. Its alot easier for me to calculate total interest by doing it this way. I guess thats the best way for me to haggle things. OP need to find a way that suits his style. these are just tips :popcorn: