President of SOA says BRZ needs more performance
 

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQMFkRP66-g"]Subaru: The Unlikely Success Story - Autoline This Week 1921 - YouTube[/ame]



BRZ talk starts around 25:42






In an interview with Autoline TV on 09 Jul 2015 Tom Doll, President and COO Subaru of America, when asked about keeping the BRZ in the lineup says:


"I think there's a place for the BRZ in our product lineup; we may have to do some things to it to enhance the driving performance a little more; take it up a little bit. Because I think that's one of the learnings we've seen out of that vehicle, if it had a little bit more performance to it, it could really take up the sales level even more."




Maybe good news for the next gen BRZ or could be just SOA talking about handling performance upgrades like the Ts which will probably find it's way to North America as an STi model in a couple of years. Hard to tell but nice to see that they recognize some potential customers want more performance.

What I got from what he said.
-Depends on the relationship with Toyota.

I got the same impression. Watching that part multiple times it seems like he personally thinks they could sell more BRZs with a higher performance version but a lot depends "on what the relationship with Toyota and what happens with the next generation of vehicle."


Almost like Toyota is vetoing more performance for this gen but maybe flexible on next gen. Just my opinion though.

This is old news.
He doesn't really say much of anything and what he does say is in typical car exec interview doublespeak. You can interpret what he says in about 4 different manners depending upon what your prior bias was.
Overall I would not hang my hat on this interview as an official report that there will be big changes.

http://www.autoline.tv/show/1921

My bad I corrected my original post. This interview actually just happened last week.

My interpretation was he doesn't want the BRZ as it exists now.

He also talks about wanting to keep the full lineup AWD. Combine that with the "more power" comment and I get the impression Subaru wants to move away from Toyota with the BRZ and build something totally different.

OHHHHH. I haven't seen that one then. Youtube is blocked at work. Bet I was still pretty close with the doublespeak though.

Yeah you can see it in his facial expressions when he talks about being committed to AWD and the interviewers keep bringing up the BRZ. But this project doesn't happen without Toyota so there's frustration there.





Total doublespeak. "More performance" and "enhance driving performance" doesn't necessarily mean more power. It could be reduced weight, suspension upgrades, you name it.

Subie News Release June 2017.
We are pleased to announce that for the 2017 MY we have improved performance handling by making the steering wheel 1/8th of an inch fatter and adding 3 extra threads to the stock camber bolts.

That will increase weight so they'll have to remove the door handles or something to make up for it.

I hear the new thing is pulling off your wipers so all is good.

I don't know...from looking at his facial expressions when he was asked about BRZ's future, it looked like he was thinking that the BRZ may be dead. Also, earlier in the interview when he was rattling off Subaru vehicles, he did not name the BRZ. Time will tell.

Don't forget taking off your steering wheel while cruising down a street!

True. That's why it's great to have video. Sometimes it's not about what's being said but how it's being said and he definitely doesn't look comfortable talking about the BRZ (at least not in it's current form or direction). It's especially noticeable when he starts talking about "some of the learnings" they've had with BRZ and needing more performance to increase sales.


(I still love my car though....)

I'm just saying if they put a fa20dit in the next gen, a swap would be mo eezi to get BAR'd in cali.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb43Nxuwc4I"]Tego się nie spodziewałem / Rally without steering wheel [EnjoyDriving.pl] - YouTube[/ame]


As for the video, it is easy to speculate any number of things from the quotes and facial expressions. I'll just keep enjoying the BRZ I have and take it from there.

Yup, I agree, and based on Toyota working with BMW on the next gen 86 chasis I think this happens. Last year Subaru reupped the SVX name and everyone recalls their BRZ hot hatch concept which had the additional clearance and height to add awd/turbo, I think the FRS will live on and the BRZ will die as the companies split for the gen 2.

They need more reliable first before they add power

I'm curious, what problems are you experiencing? Not saying there are none but they seem to be very low number of issues at this point.

I don't.

Sales are low in Europe, but strong in North America and Asia. The BRZ is especially hot in North America. Sales are expected to decline as a model ages. Don't let the auto press fool you here. Overall the 86 is selling quite well and both singularly and combined Toyota and Subaru move many more units annually than Mazda moves MX-5s.




As you can see, there is no reason for Subaru to kill the BRZ. Talking about more sales does not equal that the car is selling poorly. The cars are moving.

Subaru will get at least Gen 2 as it will use the same chassis and powerplant as the current car. A purpose built chassis like this doesn't just get one go-around. It will feature an updated FA20 with revisions to the exhaust header and intake to reduce the torque dip and add about 10-15 BHP. Gen 2 will have a revised front and rear fascia and a revised center console stack. it will also probably come with stickier tires.

Gen 3 who knows.

No, Toyota is working with BMW on the FT-1. The FT-1 isn't a replacement for the twins.



The twins are reliable in the grand scheme of things...

Very apparent that SOA has no idea how to sell the BRZ because American car executives only know how to equate car performance with engine output due to the vast ruler straight roads we have here in North America.

I don't think there will be a 2nd gen BRZ if Toyota doesn't need Subaru's production line anymore. The 86 should get another round to co-exist with the next Supra, and supposedly a 3rd sports car to round out the lower end in order to complete the trio (I keep thinking MR2 here).

It will probably make more sense to marketing if Subaru then utilizes the freed up production capacity to do an Alcyone (meaning a true sports flagship with AWD) for a 3rd time. But I really hope Subaru gets a new head stylist first and maybe bring back frameless windows to the entire lineup for starters (the current lineup is so ugly it makes even the Leone looked fantastic in comparison).

I'm with you. Toyota is working on more sportscars, makes sense to get a own production line.

And things did cool between Toyota and Subaru, remember the FT86 Open Prototype they showed in 2013... Toyota didn't tell Subaru, they found out by seeing the car at the motor show :bonk:

I wasn't using sales as a precursor on why I think Subaru will kill the BRZ (and honestly no they arent good when looking at the brz specifically). My reasoning is the disolving relationship between toyota and subaru and the brz not fitting into their product line.

I also mentioned they wouldn't stop utilzing the production line and assembly process they've created for the brz but instead would offer a product much more in-line with their corporate policies, a rebooted SVX, giving customers the awd/turbo they've all been asking for.

The brz will most likely get some tweaks and a facelift but thats not a Gen 2 vehicle, and there have been plenty of cars over the years where a 2nd gen was never offered, I expect the brz to fall into that category eventually.

Actually yes, Toyota and BMW are discussing the 2nd gen 86, not just the ft-1/supra/z4 project, see links.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/bummaru...le-generation/

http://www.gtspirit.com/2014/10/14/t...neration-gt86/

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...-ar165774.html

I know the FT-1 is the Supra and not a replacement for the 86 but the toyota bmw partnership is driving other changes and rumors are clearly out there that subaru might get left behind with bmw filling the void. Obviously this is all very circumstantial and nothing is official but with Subaru reupping the SVX nameplate and Toyota/BMW working closely together on a variety of projects, Tada himself saying so, there is some writing on the wall. There's also rumors out there BMW wants a smaller sports car to market below the Z4.....

Bookmarked for 2018 :popcorn:

lol i wont have a problem being wrong, that way i can buy the car again

The real E30 / Altezza successor would have a higher probability of returning if BMW engineers the chassis and Toyota engineers the powertrain.

Sadly many people go out and equate their spec sheets to increase the buldge in their pants

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It never really seemed like Subaru wanted the BRZ in their lineup to begin with and had to be convinced to join the partnership. Doesnt really matter what Subaru does at this point to be honest, as long as Toyota continues the car's development.

Hmm.. I don't know, Subaru is really happy with how the development of the car turned out, and rightfully so. It's just a bummer the design is to much Toyota.
Also Yasuyuki Yoshinaga said that the BRZ will get (something of-) a followup model. Last year he famously said: "If I were to be told that, I'd pass out, It's not going to be just one generation."

Sales are on a decline, a power-upgrade surely will fix it and perhaps get the market ready for the 2nd gen!

I think Subaru was eventually happy with the car, but certainly in the beginning had their doubts. Masuda and Tamou are quoted as being skeptical about how a naturally-aspirated RWD sports car would fit the Subaru lineup and whether Subaru would be able to recoup its investment costs.

I think internally Subaru faces the same doubts again as they decide whether and how much to invest into a second generation BRZ.

Personally I don't think they make that leap of faith unless they have another partner to split development costs with. For example, if Toyota decides they want to partner with Mazda or forego a partner for the second generation GT86, I just can't see a relatively small company like Subaru deciding to release a second-gen BRZ on its own. It would be a high-risk, low-reward endeavor. A lightweight NA RWD coupe just doesn't fit their business model, and a turbocharged version would cannibalize their WRX/STI sales.

I could be wrong, but that's my take on Subaru's position at the moment.

I am always amazed when people say that a power increase will improve sales. It will not necessarily improve them since for every "more power bro" that wants it they will lose at least one sale to the "Average Joe". They will take it for a test drive and be scared shitless, wanted better mileage or are not willing to pay the price that more power will drive the car up to (it won't be free). We tend to forget that many (most?) of these cars are not bought by the enthusiast but by people that think it looks cool or just wanted a small, sporty coupe. This is also why there are so many low mileage used ones around since people used to nothing but FWDs bought them and found out that RWD is not the same and did not suit their planned usage.
My point is that to have huge sales a car needs to fit the needs of several demographics and although more power will certainly bring in one group it will completely turn off others.

Price is everything.

There are enough people complaining that a base Mustang offers more power for almost the same cost. There are people who argue that a higher priced and performance version should sell well because that is what the enthusiasts want!

But what people do not realize is that this car started out as catering to a smaller customer base than other similar performance options. The WRX and STIs sell well because they offer the best of many worlds. Increasing the price further through more performance means filtering out the already niche customer base further. One of the reasons why I bought the BRZ was it was only costing as much as a fully loaded family sedan.

Everybody wants more power. For the same cost, sure... For a price touching the mid thirties, not so sure...

That is the problem, right there. The automotive enthusiast is a dying breed. Dollar for dollar, Subaru, or any other car manufacturer for that matter, will sell more cars by adding more connectivity, convenience and gadgets than they will by adding power. Make the car faster or make the car a wi-Fi hot spot. Which one is the Reddit-Facebook-Instagram crowd going to go for?

Cars passed that tipping point a long time ago. There are plenty of creature comfort features in the 86, as "base" as it is, that could have been forgone or made options so money could be spent elsewhere.

Look at all the threads on here arguing that the FR-S should have dual climate control and remote keyless entry like the BRZ. Sorry, don't need either one of those but I'm going to guess the next time I go to buy a new car I won't have the option to NOT get it.

no one knows shit. Except for Toyota/Subaru

Not picking on you in particular @Vides990, so please don't take offense :)

I find these comments amusing. How is the relationship dissolving?

Toyota owns a portion of Fuji Heavy Industries. Which in turn owns Subaru outright. Therefore, by definition, they have a relationship, whether people want to believe it or not.

The articles are all corporate speak. Just because Tada says "That's a possibility" doesn't make it so. He can't speak about the development of the next gen 86 because... its in development. So he can't confirm or deny anything really.

Now, lets say that the next gen 86 is a BMW/Toyota developed car. The current production line is all Subaru driven, so there's a good chance the BRZ would continue, but based upon the existing chassis. So they'd split. This is not necessarily a bad thing either, as it offers more choices to us, the consumers.

Keep in mind too, a well engineered chassis can be used for a long time. The NC was putting smiles on faces for 10 years before Mazda released the new ND.

So, considering how good the FT-86 chassis is, seems a little early to me to be talking about a new partnership already. Or at the very least, talking about a new chassis.

No offense taken, so please don't take any as well.

Toyota owns a mere 16.5% of Fuji and its been well reported that the management of Fuji has not meshed well with Toyota's management since they increased their ownership % to that 16.5. Fuji has also decided to stop making the Camry for Toyota as they try to distance themselves from the company and how they interact. Fuji doesn't want to end up as joint venture or in a partnership, they want control over themselves and Subaru didn't initially want to by involved in the 86 platform to begin with, Toyota basically dragged them into it.

http://blogs.wsj.com/japanrealtime/2...py-road-ahead/

http://www.autonews.com/article/2014...toyota-in-2016

Clearly because of ownership there is a relationship, but its not a well working one and Fuji clearly wants more distance.

I believe Tada can speak on the developments, as he actually is the person in charge of the how the vehicle will move forward, can he confirm or deny anything, obviously not because of legal ramifications but when you read between the lines and take the multitude of "sources" into consideration its easy to come to a conclusion that everything is not peachy between the two companies.

I agree that Subaru has alot invested in both the chasis and the assembly process, utilizing both they could re-tool and offer a new vehicle, the SVX as I previously mentioned, which they have currently re-patented.

I don't expect the BRZ to die by 2017/2018 or anything like that, I think the 1st gen 86 (frs & brz) gets dragged out until the 2020 time frame (7-8 year cycle is about right for low productin sports cars) where the two companies then split and toyota/bmw offer the 86 and subie sells the svx.

I agree, an AWD BRZ with a more powerful engine (NA or not) would be a good start. Heavier yes ... but in the NE US in the winter I'd happily pay the price/weight difference.